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[primerfish]

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[Mr.Smile12]

List your schools where you applied, interviewed, or got results. Alternatively, point us to your WAMC or format your first post accordingly.

 

[LizzyM]

To serve "the community", as a population, and to do research, you don't need a medical degree. You could do that in public health, public policy, public administration of programs. If you want to see people one at a time, diagnose and treat them and perhaps provide one-on-one services aimed at health promotion and disease prevention (more common in primary care than in the specialties), then become a doctor. Otherwise, consider looking at other careers. If your interest in patient care is not coming through in your application, it could explain why you feel that the cycle has not gone well for you.

Also, best to go with 2 science faculty, one non-science faculty member. The point of the letters is not so much to see how you will be as a doctor as to get the opinion of people who have seen you perform as a student and whether you would be good addition to our classroom (are you curious, well-organized and on-time, engaged, writing and speaking well, etc).

 

[LindaAccepted]

Hello all,
I am having a bit of a rough cycle right now (1 IS II, 14 Rs, 0 As, 28 Schools on my list). I want to make sure that I am doing everything I can to be a successful applicant next cycle. Any advice or critique is appreciated.

Stats:
519 MCAT,
4.0 GPA

ECs:
600-ish hours as a math tutor
500 hours researching in oncology lab (no pubs, but a poster presentation)
150 hours shadowing
150 hours volunteering at local homeless shelter
110 hours volunteering in local hospital ICU
Narrative Relevant Hobby: Extracurricular Spanish learning, 200 hours

What I believe I did wrong and what I am doing to work on it:
Not enough substantial and meaningful clinic experience, recently got job as Patient Care Tech at local Hospital
No narrative ties amongst ECs in writing, now volunteering at local homeless shelter clinic and volunteer tutoring (see Writing and Narrative section)

LORs:
1 LOR from Biology Professor
1 LOR from non-science TA
1 LOR from shadowed physician

What I believe I did wrong and what I am doing to work on it:
Rushed LORs, not enough ties to medicine in my LORs, this was a glaring weakness of my application. This year, I am actively building stronger relationships with my professors and managers. I plan to drop the TA LOR, and add 2 more science professor recommendations, along with a narrative-relevant non-science professor reccomendation from my minor (Spanish).

School List:
Too top heavy

What I am doing to work on it:
Applying to more schools and developing a more well-rounded school list

Writing and Narrative:
No strong narrative in my application. In retrospect, this harmed my application significantly.

What I am doing to work on it:
I have significantly rethought my reasons for medicine, and I have found a narrative that personally resonates with me as well as matches with my ECs and hobbies (see ECs). "I want to be a doctor to be an expert advocate for underserved/rural populations through service to the community and research".

I plan to apply again this summer and continue to work as a volunteer and patient care tech in my gap year. Any advice? Anything I'm not seeing? I would love to hear all perspectives.

I hope the II turns into an A, but it seems to be like you are asking the right questions if you do need to apply and working to address weaknesses. The one that really jumped out at me was the need to have more clinical experience. You recognize that and are trying to address it.

If you list was too top heavy, you also seem to know what you need to do to address that.

 

[primerfish]

To serve "the community", as a population, and to do research, you don't need a medical degree. You could do that in public health, public policy, public administration of programs. If you want to see people one at a time, diagnose and treat them and perhaps provide one-on-one services aimed at health promotion and disease prevention (more common in primary care than in the specialties), then become a doctor. Otherwise, consider looking at other careers. If your interest in patient care is not coming through in your application, it could explain why you feel that the cycle has not gone well for you.

Also, best to go with 2 science faculty, one non-science faculty member. The point of the letters is not so much to see how you will be as a doctor as to get the opinion of people who have seen you perform as a student and whether you would be good addition to our classroom (are you curious, well-organized and on-time, engaged, writing and speaking well, etc).

I am very interested in patient care. The joy I have experience first-hand in the hospital through my interactions with patients and fascination that I have developed with the unique and complex relationship between the healthcare provider and the patient was the heart of my current PS.

I appreciated how all of the doctors that I shadowed navigated this relationship with such empathetic expertise and emotional intelligence— which parrelled their technical expertise and analytical intellegence in the diagnostic side of their job. I included in my current PS a personal anecdote about watching a doctor give a difficult diagnosis (severe autoimmune disease) to a patient. I talked about how I was deeply touched and inspired to be a physician with how they talked with the patient with such mindfulness and precision in such an emotionally challenging situation.

I also really emphasized this in my only interview too.

 

[eigen]

"I want to be a doctor to be an expert advocate for underserved/rural populations through service to the community and research"

If this is your central narrative, I would think about re-working it. I see a lot of professions where this would be the one-sentence take-away, and "physician" isn't really one of them.

One of the most challenging parts of the entire application is encapsulating why you want to be a doctor: it needs to emphasize what you like about medicine in a way that also indirectly disqualifies other adjacent fields.

I am very interested in patient care. The joy I have experience first-hand in the hospital through my interactions with patients and fascination that I have developed with the unique and complex relationship between the healthcare provider and the patient was the heart of my current PS.

Again, my immediate follow-up is "why a physician over another healthcare provider". NPs, PAs, nurses, and many other healthcare providers would fit this role.

It seems like you've hit the mark on why you want to go into healthcare, but I'm not certain you're hitting the mark on why you want to be a physician, specifically.

 

[primerfish]

If this is your central narrative, I would think about re-working it. I see a lot of professions where this would be the one-sentence take-away, and "physician" isn't really one of them.

One of the most challenging parts of the entire application is encapsulating why you want to be a doctor: it needs to emphasize what you like about medicine in a way that also indirectly disqualifies other adjacent fields.

Again, my immediate follow-up is "why a physician over another healthcare provider". NPs, PAs, nurses, and many other healthcare providers would fit this role.

It seems like you've hit the mark on why you want to go into healthcare, but I'm not certain you're hitting the mark on why you want to be a physician, specifically.

My role as a self-employed math tutor taught me that I like disseminating information and I like to be the person that organizes action.

In my role as a researcher in an oncology lab, I liked the feeling of pushing boundaries of knowledge and therefore I knew that I wanted to be a premier expert in whatever field I go into.

My clinical experience showed me that I enjoyed working in a healthcare setting in the service of patients, and that I was fascinated by the provider-patient relationship.

Thus, I thought— what position can give me all of these things? Who is the premier biological expert and team-leader in a healthcare setting in a patient-facing role?

The physician.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

My role as a self-employed math tutor taught me that I like disseminating information and I like to be the person that organizes action.

In my role as a researcher in an oncology lab, I liked the feeling of pushing boundaries of knowledge and therefore I knew that I wanted to be a premier expert in whatever field I go into.

My clinical experience showed me that I enjoyed working in a healthcare setting in the service of patients, and that I was fascinated by the provider-patient relationship.

Thus, I thought— what position can give me all of these things? Who is the premier biological expert and team-leader in a healthcare setting in a patient-facing role?

The physician.

Read

The new physician personal statement

Do some soul-searching of your own by digging up the personal statements you wrote for your applications to medical school and/or residency and compare what you wrote then to your current life and career situation.

www.kevinmd.com

 

[eigen]

My role as a self-employed math tutor taught me that I like disseminating information and I like to be the person that organizes action.

In my role as a researcher in an oncology lab, I liked the feeling of pushing boundaries of knowledge and therefore I knew that I wanted to be a premier expert in whatever field I go into.

My clinical experience showed me that I enjoyed working in a healthcare setting in the service of patients, and that I was fascinated by the provider-patient relationship.

Thus, I thought— what position can give me all of these things? Who is the premier biological expert and team-leader in a healthcare setting in a patient-facing role?

The physician.

Gonna be honest, my immediate response to this is "I'm not sure this person has a realistic understanding of what a physician does".

You want to work in rural, underserved communities. But doing cutting edge research is also important to you? Those are two hard things to get in the same job.

Disseminating information and organizing action... fits an awful lot of healthcare roles. As does your last one.

Your writing is flowery, but it's not really showing me that you have a realistic understanding of the profession and a solid view of what your life as a physician would be like, and why you would like it.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Gonna be honest, my immediate response to this is "I'm not sure this person has a realistic understanding of what a physician does". ...

@eigen You did a better job with this critique than my first reaction: "Bless your heart...". 🙂

 

[primerfish]

Gonna be honest, my immediate response to this is "I'm not sure this person has a realistic understanding of what a physician does".

You want to work in rural, underserved communities. But doing cutting edge research is also important to you? Those are two hard things to get in the same job.

Probably not in the same role, but I don't understand why I can't have both in my career. I see them as an extension of one another-- advocacy for the patient in different forms. I discuss in my new, rewritten PS an anecdote about meeting the subject of my lymphoma research in person-- a little girl from an underserved rural community. I discuss how, through this experience, I came to understand how these two seemingly different career objectives (research and serving rural, underserved communities) align more than I previously thought.

@eigen You did a better job with this critique than my first reaction: "Bless your heart...". 🙂

I think this comment is leading us towards an unhelpful place. Can I get some advice or help instead of "my sweet summer child"? Maybe some guidance instead of tut-tutting at me?

I know things aren't perfect with my application already, that's why I am here. I purposefully put myself in a position of vulnerability, so such unhelpful remarks without substantial critique are low blows.

 

[LizzyM]

I guess the thing we are trying to reconcile is how one does rural medicine and research, which tends to be focused in urban settings. It is hard to serve as a physician in a rural setting 4 hours from the nearest academic medical center and do research, too. Maybe you are picturing something different when you say "rural"?? or different when you say "research"?

 

[Angler]

School List:
Too top heavy

What I am doing to work on it:
Applying to more schools and developing a more well-rounded school list

Writing and Narrative:
No strong narrative in my application. In retrospect, this harmed my application significantly.

What I am doing to work on it:
I have significantly rethought my reasons for medicine, and I have found a narrative that personally resonates with me as well as matches with my ECs and hobbies (see ECs). "I want to be a doctor to be an expert advocate for underserved/rural populations through service to the community and research".

Hopefully, there will be an A after your II.

However, in case you reapply... your stats are great, but maybe your school list isn't. Getting a well chosen school list is essential. You need to make the list fit your mission. You say you found a narrative that matches your application. I hope this doesn't mean you have crafted a mission that gets you into med school (I suspect that a large proportion of applicants do this).

Get someone who's qualified to critique your new PS and secondaries. You may not be the best judge of your own writing.

In the future, you're going to get really tough love in all the unlikely places. So, get your armor on. The other posters aren't being cruel. Your colleagues have no time to beat around the bush. If they are falsely nice, they're doing you no favors.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I think this comment is leading us towards an unhelpful place. Can I get some advice or help instead of "my sweet summer child"? Maybe some guidance instead of tut-tutting at me?

I gave you an article to read. What are your thoughts? We have pointed out your answer seems naive given what physicians currently do and experience. Your answer will be met with similar derision from many admissions faculty and screeners.

I am confident you are better than the answer you have given... provided you can give one that is more realistic to what schools are supposed to train you as.

The world of Arrowsmith as a doctor is long gone. You can have multiple interests but that doesn't get you closer to a goal of being a physician, much less someone who is patient centered, which your answer did nor resonate with me as.

 

[primerfish]

Hopefully, there will be an A after your II.

thank you, fingers crossed.

However, in case you reapply... your stats are great, but maybe your school list isn't. Getting a well chosen school list is essential. You need to make the list fit your mission. You say you found a narrative that matches your application. I hope this doesn't mean you have crafted a mission that gets you into med school (I suspect that a large proportion of applicants do this).

Get someone who's qualified to critique your new PS and secondaries. You may not be the best judge of your own writing.

Good advice. This cycle, I got the director of the premed major at my university to make suggestions about my PS— they gave me suggestions and then the thumbs up. But I think I definitely need a good second opinion as well. I have been developing some strong relationships with some people adjacent to my alma mater med school— maybe they can give me their 2 cents.

In the future, you're going to get really tough love in all the unlikely places. So, get your armor on. The other posters aren't being cruel. Your colleagues have no time to beat around the bush. If they are falsely nice, they're doing you no favors.

It wasn’t simply a matter of hurtfulness, it was a matter of irrelevance. I am capable of taking constructive criticism, in whatever form it may take, but that did not contain any new or valuable information. I am trying to get the most out of this thread from all of the wonderful and helpful experts, and I am trying to keep the discussion on topic.

Tough love implies that there is a rose beneath the thorns— something I could take away. The comment was a needless, patronizing scoff at my naivety without providing a modicum of value.

I don’t want to dwell on this too much.

 

[Angler]

If a 24-25 app cycle is necessary, at a minimum, do a "WAMC" and post your school list. (At least) two regulars here are really good at school lists. Some applicants are reluctant for fear of doxxing themselves by posting their app details. Med schools applicants are (almost) a dime a dozen, so you should be fine if you fear making your identity known.

What you do in your reapplicant gap year is also critical. No fluffy stuff. No meditation in Nepal looking at your umbilicus. Working full time in a real clinical job, or doing research (while doing some additional clinical stuff) would be helpful. I don't know if you're still in UG, but if not critical that you not lose time, apply 25-26 instead and really buff up your application.

 

[primerfish]

I guess the thing we are trying to reconcile is how one does rural medicine and research, which tends to be focused in urban settings. It is hard to serve as a physician in a rural setting 4 hours from the nearest academic medical center and do research, too. Maybe you are picturing something different when you say "rural"?? or different when you say "research"?

edit:[not gonna doxx myself on accident]

 

[Med Ed]

It wasn’t simply a matter of hurtfulness, it was a matter of irrelevance. I am capable of taking constructive criticism, in whatever form it may take, but that did not contain any new or valuable information. I am trying to get the most out of this thread from all of the wonderful and helpful experts, and I am trying to keep the discussion on topic.

Tough love implies that there is a rose beneath the thorns— something I could take away. The comment was a needless, patronizing scoff at my naivety without providing a modicum of value.

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

 

[eigen]

It wasn’t simply a matter of hurtfulness, it was a matter of irrelevance. I am capable of taking constructive criticism, in whatever form it may take, but that did not contain any new or valuable information. I am trying to get the most out of this thread from all of the wonderful and helpful experts, and I am trying to keep the discussion on topic.

From my perspective, it feels like you're not listening to or engaging with people taking the time to give you more substantive critiques, and brushing them off as 'but I'm fine, really', or arguing that they're wrong.

 

[eigen]

Probably not in the same role, but I don't understand why I can't have both in my career. I see them as an extension of one another-- advocacy for the patient in different forms. I discuss in my new, rewritten PS an anecdote about meeting the subject of my lymphoma research in person-- a little girl from an underserved rural community. I discuss how, through this experience, I came to understand how these two seemingly different career objectives (research and serving rural, underserved communities) align more than I previously thought.

I'm having a hard time interpreting what you mean here, especially given that your context seems to be research that requires a major medical center.

If by "research", you mean things that are more on the public/community health side of things or case-studies in rural health, then I could see this working out. But people rarely describe that as being "on the cutting edge".

At least in my experience, patients who are underserved in rural areas rarely need physicians in big cities to "advocate" for them by talking about the problem, or even doing research on it. What they need are physicians who are actually willing to work where they live and provide the medical services they lack. After years of living in rural areas, I'm increasingly cynical of applicants who talk about "underserved rural areas" but have not spent time working in a healthcare setting in those areas and who are not planning to serve those patients by actually going to one of those places. Similarly, someone sitting in a major medical center and "advocating" for the needs of a patient by critiquing the physicians who are willing to endure career challenges to be in that place actually serving those people is.... not usually something I see as well received.

Maybe you've found the magical unicorn path to unite a high-powered research career and serving the needs of rural communities, and if so you're well on your way to solving a major issue in US healthcare. But since, in my view, the root of the issue seems to be "physicians don't want to work in understaffed clinics where the pay is poor in the middle of nowhere", that's pretty hard to solve without being willing to be that person.

To put a bit more of a humorous point on it....

 

[Goro]

In my role as a researcher in an oncology lab, I liked the feeling of pushing boundaries of knowledge and therefore I knew that I wanted to be a premier expert in whatever field I go into.

How exactly are you going to do this if you're working in, say Jonesville, AR or Kalispell, MT?

What experience do you have serving rural populations?

 

[JAK2-STAT3]

Before medical school I worked in research in a major academic medical center. After that life happened and I ended up in a clinical role in a rural area. I discussed how I might combine these interests in some of my secondaries and was ultimately accepted, so it can be done. That said, I'm not sure what direction my career will go after medical school.

OP, feel free to PM me your personal statement. I'd be happy to offer my thoughts.

 

[primerfish]

From my perspective, it feels like you're not listening to or engaging with people taking the time to give you more substantive critiques, and brushing them off as 'but I'm fine, really', or arguing that they're wrong.

I am listening. I am agreeing with a lot of what y’all are saying, and contextualizing and explaining my thoughts where necessary. I tried to communicate my gratitude in my response in my response to Angler, but it must not have been effectively communicated on my end. I never said I was right, I was literally just explaining what I was planning to do and what I have done, and allowing you guys to bounce of your thoughts off of that. A sounding board of sorts.

My ideas are rough and imperfect, some of them completely wrong. I am still organizing my thoughts, and I appreciate the help. If I thought my ideas were “fine”, like you suggest, I wouldn’t have made a post about it in the first place.

Besides that one guy that was making unhelpful, overly patronizing, and borderline infantilizing remarks, when did I ever suggest that anyone was right or wrong in the slightest?

I’m just bouncing ideas off of the experts. LizzyM and Angler, for example, have been very helpful here. You have brought up some good food for thought for me too.

Can we just talk to each other like people please? The accusations are not necessary.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

My ideas are rough and imperfect, some of them completely wrong. I am still organizing my thoughts, and I appreciate the help. If I thought my ideas were “fine”, like you suggest, I wouldn’t have made a post about it in the first place.

One of the big characteristics that is now a core competency is Commitment to Learning and Improvement. You are going to get feedback that is going to be harsh, but believe it or not, we are being helpful. Better you get this feedback to point out how your message lands on the experts here than in an adcom deliberation where you can't defend yourself. You will be similarly tested by many in your future medical training, so will you be ready?

Many people I know will reject anyone who shows signs they refuse to learn or are hopelessly naive. Not everyone plays nice, and often you will need to cope with a preceptor who just isn't going to be fair with you because you came off as naive and you can't do anything about the negative feedback that will go into your performance letter to residencies.

Rather than being defensive, let's reset and answer the questions raised.

 

[Med Ed]

I would love to hear all perspectives.

Perspective: you seem very high maintenance.

You've already diagnosed the major deficiencies in your application. Your core narrative remains confusing, but that's hardly unique.

 

[eigen]

Can we just talk to each other like people please? The accusations are not necessary.

You were the one who started making accusations, largely by blowing a comment not even made to you way, way out of proportion.

I’m just bouncing ideas off of the experts. LizzyM and Angler, for example, have been very helpful here. You have brought up some good food for thought for me too.

Got it, guess I'll stop responding since I apparently don't meet the bar for "being very helpful", likely because I'm not telling you what you want to hear. Just like apparently @Mr.Smile12 doesn't even make the list, despite sharing both links and some pretty insightful thoughts with you, not to mention asking questions that we need answers to to help you... that you proceeded to ignore.