15 on PAT

[dnguyen]

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This posting is actually for my friend who took the test a couple of days ago. Here is his background. He has a 3.6gpa from great college. He's worked for the last 5 years at a biotech company and has a long laundry list of extras. He took his test on 7/24 and received for the sake of time 20's across the board except he got a 15 on the PAT.

Is it too late for him to retake the test, which would be in October or should he just wing it with his scores as it is? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[remify]

i think he should apply. if he retakes the DATs, it will make his application process late. he has pretty good stats. if he has everything pretty much covered (DAT, GPA, dental experience) except for 15 on the PAT, he should still be considered a competitive candidate.

 

[Mackchops]

I agree. Some schools don't care about the PAT as much as others so you never know... as long as a 15 is above the required minimums. Worst case scenario, have him register to take the DAT again and, if he gets waitlisted he can mail his new scores to the schools. October isn't too late.

 

[dmfDMD]

He should apply now with his scores and he will most likely still get an interview which may be anytime from sept-nov so some of the interviews may be after his retake and he can have his new scores. if he gets the interviews before then he can say i'm retaking them as soon as my 90 day period is up and they'll take it into consideration at the interview and wait for the new scores.

This posting is actually for my friend who took the test a couple of days ago. Here is his background. He has a 3.6gpa from great college. He's worked for the last 5 years at a biotech company and has a long laundry list of extras. He took his test on 7/24 and received for the sake of time 20's across the board except he got a 15 on the PAT.

Is it too late for him to retake the test, which would be in October or should he just wing it with his scores as it is? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[OSUDDS]

What are some schools that don't look at the PAT so much?

 

[pcgirl]

i think he should apply. if he retakes the DATs, it will make his application process late. he has pretty good stats. if he has everything pretty much covered (DAT, GPA, dental experience) except for 15 on the PAT, he should still be considered a competitive candidate.

Most schools have cut off at 16. OP might have to double check with schools he/she is applying to.

 

[OSUDDS]

Most schools have cut off at 16. OP might have to double check with schools he/she is applying to.

Ohio States cutoff is 13, but the average is 17.25

 

[DIRTIE]

Ohio States cutoff is 13, but the average is 17.25

resident cutoff that is

 

[prez_al]

Tufts is 14, at UPenn the avg is 17, but the admissions people told me they don't care too much about the PAT, cuz they apparently think the PAT is a silly test or something to that degree. UPenn's other avgs are 20+ in AA, TS and RC... sounds like your friend matches the average Penn student!

 

[dnguyen]

Thanx for all the useful advice. He really wants to stay in California though, excluding Loma Linda. You guys think he has a shot at one of the other ones with a 15? I know UOP's website states they want 16 minimum on everything.

 

[Mrxle3]

California schools with a 15 on PAT may not be a reality. However, this is just my opinion.

 

[polarnut]

15 on PAT is like saying you can't tell the difference between a rectangle and a clown.

 

[teefRcool]

15 on PAT is like saying you can't tell the difference between a rectangle and a clown.

Aahahahahaha that just made my day!

 

[remify]

Thanx for all the useful advice. He really wants to stay in California though, excluding Loma Linda. You guys think he has a shot at one of the other ones with a 15? I know UOP's website states they want 16 minimum on everything.

what's wrong with loma linda?

 

[mitshi]

what's wrong with loma linda?

cuz LLU is a religious institution that promotes Christianity and health reform. You may have to forego many of your bad habits to enjoy the healthy and blessed lifestyle there.

 

[prez_al]

cuz LLU is a religious institution that promotes Christianity and health reform. You may have to forego many of your bad habits to enjoy the healthy and blessed lifestyle there.

Which one of these are bad habits at Loma Linda?

Drinking alcohol, drinking coffee, playing Grand Theft Auto, smoking (anything), toga parties, playing poker in your dorm... feel free to add more. The premeds also had a thread regarding what you can and cannot do at Loma Linda. Seems like that school sucks the fun out of anything....

 

[Lucass]

dnguyen, tell your friend I'm in the 15 club as well. I recently took the dat and got a 21/23/19, however, on the Quantatative Reasoning section I got a pride-crushing 15 (slightly above ritarded levels) . I know some schools do give cut-off minimums, but they're usually for the AA/TS/PAT (i.e. Tufts requires a minimum of 16/16/15). Does anybody know if dental schools have cut-off minimums for each sub-section--especially math?

 

[dnguyen]

dnguyen, tell your friend I'm in the 15 club as well. I recently took the dat and got a 21/23/19, however, on the Quantatative Reasoning section I got a pride-crushing 15 (slightly above ritarded levels) . I know some schools do give cut-off minimums, but they're usually for the AA/TS/PAT (i.e. Tufts requires a minimum of 16/16/15). Does anybody know if dental schools have cut-off minimums for each sub-section--especially math?

Wanna know some funny? While he still got a 15 on the PAT, he was actually 49 percentile. Odd huh? Some of these percentiles make no sense to me.

I got a 19 on the reading section myself and it was a 52 percentile. While I saw someone's earlier this week with a 16 on the RC and it was a 14 percentile. How does any of this make sense. Strange that a 14 percentile would qualify as a cutoff for most schools while a 49 percentile on the PAT doesnt cut it for my friend.

BTW, he didnt apply for LLU because he has been out of college for 5 years. LLU requires that you have taken your science classes within the last 5 years. Hell, even I dont qualify since I graduated in 2004.

 

[abzirian]

Wanna know some funny? While he still got a 15 on the PAT, he was actually 49 percentile. Odd huh? Some of these percentiles make no sense to me.

I got a 19 on the reading section myself and it was a 52 percentile. While I saw someone's earlier this week with a 16 on the RC and it was a 14 percentile. How does any of this make sense. Strange that a 14 percentile would qualify as a cutoff for most schools while a 49 percentile on the PAT doesnt cut it for my friend.

BTW, he didnt apply for LLU because he has been out of college for 5 years. LLU requires that you have taken your science classes within the last 5 years. Hell, even I dont qualify since I graduated in 2004.

Its different by years. I don't know how they can calculate your national percentile on the spot, nor figure out how and if the national average goes up by year when they change the tests every time, but my AA of 23 was a 99.3% and my friends 23 for the year after (she took it last month) was a 84%.

 

[OSUDDS]

Its different by years. I don't know how they can calculate your national percentile on the spot, nor figure out how and if the national average goes up by year when they change the tests every time, but my AA of 23 was a 99.3% and my friends 23 for the year after (she took it last month) was a 84%.

werd up, i took it this week and got AA-19 86.2% .... it varies by what test you have too

 

[Lucass]

Its different by years. I don't know how they can calculate your national percentile on the spot, nor figure out how and if the national average goes up by year when they change the tests every time, but my AA of 23 was a 99.3% and my friends 23 for the year after (she took it last month) was a 84%.

Uh...I think your friend's lying to you. I took the DAT one month ago and got a 21 and it put me into the 94th percentile.

 

[Revelde]

Uh...I think your friend's lying to you. I took the DAT one month ago and got a 21 and it put me into the 94th percentile.

I cannot believe either.. 23 AA is 84%???? That is way off the usual trend.
a 20+ score is above 90 percentile for sure ..I believe..

 

[arbelm1]

let me make a guess and see if it is true:
you sound like one of those trust fund babies who has to work 10 hours a week in order to be able to buy snow boarding gears, then sit around a fire, brag about his achievements ( or to be accurate, his parents' achievements) and go to sleep feeling proud.
kids like you would have never made it on their own.

 

[jtsai256]

let me make a guess and see if it is true:
you sound like one of those trust fund babies who has to work 10 hours a week in order to be able to buy snow boarding gears, then sit around a fire, brag about his achievements ( or to be accurate, his parents' achievements) and go to sleep feeling proud.
kids like you would have never made it on their own.

who exactly are you responding to? I can't quite tell...

 

[arbelm1]

polarnut

 

[HermeytheElf]

let me make a guess and see if it is true:
you sound like one of those trust fund babies who has to work 10 hours a week in order to be able to buy snow boarding gears, then sit around a fire, brag about his achievements ( or to be accurate, his parents' achievements) and go to sleep feeling proud.
kids like you would have never made it on their own.

What on earth does this have to do with anything? In the first place, polarnut has no more control over his parents than you do...if he happens to have wealthy and intelligent parents, its not his fault and there's nothing to really blame him for. Do you judge a poor child in Africa because he was born to impoverished parents? Then why should you blame someone for being born into more privilege than you? It's obvious that he worked hard to excel in college and on the DAT, so what difference does the tax bracket his parents are in make?

Now on to the PAT...polarnut's point (which by the way was hilarious) is very true. Being a dentist requires a certain amount of hand skills and the ability to visual in 3D. A score of 15 on the PAT, the purpose of which is to measure your ability to visualize things in three dimensions, is very borderline. There is a strong correlation between performance on the PAT and clinical performance. Those students who score highly on the PAT typically are the most skilled clinicians.

 

[PlanB21]

I am sorry, but that makes no sense to me. My two sisters both scored super low on thier PAT, 15 and 16, and one is a graduated dentist and the other is in dental school. The graduated dentist has gotten excellent reviews from her boss and from her patients for her clinical work. My other sister is one the top performers in the simulation labs. So your statement of high PAT equating to skilled clinicians is completely ******ed and has no validity to it. Because some geek can put shapes in keyholes means he is going to be a great dentist? If you think since you scored high on the PAT that you are automatically going to be a great dentist then you are in for a rude awakening in the future...

By they way, Polarnut's point was completely corny and did not make any sense at all.

 

[abzirian]

I cannot believe either.. 23 AA is 84%???? That is way off the usual trend.
a 20+ score is above 90 percentile for sure ..I believe..

Oops you're totally right. I remembered that wrong - she said it was 96%. But i do remember that for some sections there were some drastic differences between our test scores in terms of percentiles and comparable standard scores..

 

[abzirian]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=3757517#post3757517

I happened to bring this up in another thread waaay earlier

 

[HermeytheElf]

I am sorry, but that makes no sense to me. My two sisters both scored super low on thier PAT, 15 and 16, and one is a graduated dentist and the other is in dental school. The graduated dentist has gotten excellent reviews from her boss and from her patients for her clinical work. My other sister is one the top performers in the simulation labs. So your statement of high PAT equating to skilled clinicians is completely ******ed and has no validity to it. Because some geek can put shapes in keyholes means he is going to be a great dentist? If you think since you scored high on the PAT that you are automatically going to be a great dentist then you are in for a rude awakening in the future...

By they way, Polarnut's point was completely corny and did not make any sense at all.

Erroneous. Erroneous on both counts.

 

[PlanB21]

How is that statement erroneous? How is that a misleading or false statement?

 

[Revelde]

I am sorry, but that makes no sense to me. My two sisters both scored super low on thier PAT, 15 and 16, and one is a graduated dentist and the other is in dental school. The graduated dentist has gotten excellent reviews from her boss and from her patients for her clinical work. My other sister is one the top performers in the simulation labs. So your statement of high PAT equating to skilled clinicians is completely ******ed and has no validity to it. Because some geek can put shapes in keyholes means he is going to be a great dentist? If you think since you scored high on the PAT that you are automatically going to be a great dentist then you are in for a rude awakening in the future...

By they way, Polarnut's point was completely corny and did not make any sense at all.

Not every single "good clinician" aced in PAT when they took the DAT.

However, most high achievers in PAT will be "good clinician"

Your sister is one of those who performed very poorly in PAT but still got to be in "good clinician" category.

 

[Mach band]

...
Now on to the PAT...polarnut's point (which by the way was hilarious) is very true. Being a dentist requires a certain amount of hand skills and the ability to visual in 3D. A score of 15 on the PAT, the purpose of which is to measure your ability to visualize things in three dimensions, is very borderline. There is a strong correlation between performance on the PAT and clinical performance. Those students who score highly on the PAT typically are the most skilled clinicians.

Agreed. I have no idea why some dentists and school admins actually said PAT was irrelevant to dentistry. The test has been there for years for a reason. Some studies show a correlation between high PAT score students and highly skilled clinicians. Sure, you probably don't need high PAT score to wax well, but when it comes to prepping a tooth, especially through the mirror, whoever scored low on PAT will suffer. Sure, you can learn the techniques with practice. But you will definitely need some time. UOP looks for high PAT score students for a reason.

 

[PlanB21]

Look, I am not trying to start a fight with people in here. It just bothers me that people say they state "facts" without any evidence behind them. There is a reason why dentists say that. My dentist said the same thing and he is one of the top general dentist in the state. So since a person scores low on the PAT, they won't be able to prep a tooth through a mirror? If a person scores high on the PAT, they can automatically prep a tooth in a mirror? I guess people with high scores dont need to practice when they get to dental school. They can just pick up a high speed drill and prep a crown..piece of cake...

Of course you need to practice. Everyone has to practice. That is why the sim labs are open on the weekend, to practice the techniques. Who cares if i have to spend maybe 5 or 6 extra hours a week? Gee I am missing getting drunk...big freaking deal...

Look I am just kind of defensive about this topic because i scored low on the PAT, and I can't stand people who automatically think they are better than me because they scored high. I scored 22AA and 21 on science with a 3.8GPA and I don't
t think for one second I am better than anyone in my class or here. It just bothers me..

 

[arbelm1]

Hermy the elf!!!!you just don't get the point since you are one of those that I described

 

[HermeytheElf]

Hermy the elf!!!!you just don't get the point since you are one of those that I described

That's the second time in this thread that you have resorted to personal attacks instead of actually addressing the points which you disagree with. In the future, why don't you try coming up with a cogent argument instead of taking issue with my parents income tax bracket.

 

[KOM]

Look, I am not trying to start a fight with people in here. It just bothers me that people say they state "facts" without any evidence behind them. There is a reason why dentists say that. My dentist said the same thing and he is one of the top general dentist in the state. So since a person scores low on the PAT, they won't be able to prep a tooth through a mirror? If a person scores high on the PAT, they can automatically prep a tooth in a mirror? I guess people with high scores dont need to practice when they get to dental school. They can just pick up a high speed drill and prep a crown..piece of cake...

Of course you need to practice. Everyone has to practice. That is why the sim labs are open on the weekend, to practice the techniques. Who cares if i have to spend maybe 5 or 6 extra hours a week? Gee I am missing getting drunk...big freaking deal...

Look I am just kind of defensive about this topic because i scored low on the PAT, and I can't stand people who automatically think they are better than me because they scored high. I scored 22AA and 21 on science with a 3.8GPA and I don't
t think for one second I am better than anyone in my class or here. It just bothers me..

Nobody is saying they're better than you, but with a low PAT score you're raising skepticism. There have been one or two studies that I've read that show a relatively strong correlation between PAT and clinical ability. It does not mean that if you score low on the PAT then you're doomed. When you're doing fillings or a root canal you need to have a sense of "depth perception" in addition to being able to visualize the surfaces of the tooth and know how much you need to fill based on X-rays etc. Nothing states that if you score a 15 on the PAT you won't ever be able to develop this ability. Like you said...you can spend a few extra hours in the sim lab or whatever. But...schools will look at your 15 or whatever it is you scored and want to see higher. That's life. Good luck.

 

[dnguyen]

Boy, did I open a can of worms with this thread that I started? I personally have no problem with anyone who scored poorly or well on the test. I scored a 23 on the PAT but I frankly think that section is sorta weird.

I started this thread so that I could help my friend with his application, not to start wars between fellow pre-dental applicants. My conclusion so far is that, yes for some people and colleges, the PAT is ******ed while others value it. I.E., UoP. Anyways, I've told him that a fifteen is sorta low for most California schools, and now it is up to him if he wants to apply with that score.

Correlations between the PAT and being a clinician is strong so there is probably some truth to it, but that shouldn't eliminate people with excellent TS and AA scores and low PAT from applying, and that certainly doesnt make them ******ed. Who knows, my friend with a 15 may become a much better clinician than me in the future, only time will tell. But now, I'm just concerned with me and him actually getting into D-school.