2009 Scramble and Un-matched students

[ChubbyChaser]

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So the match will be getting more competitive, but shouldnt the only ones worrying about whether or not they match (for most specialities) be those who are in the bottom 10% applying for each given specialty or those who apply stupidly?? Granted it may not be at their top choice.

The vast majority will still be unaffected, or am i understanding this incorrectly?

 

[SoCuteMD]

So the match will be getting more competitive, but shouldnt the only ones worrying about whether or not they match (for most specialities) be those who are in the bottom 10% applying for each given specialty or those who apply stupidly?? Granted it may not be at their top choice.

The vast majority will still be unaffected, or am i understanding this incorrectly?

As has been said before, it's not necessarily the bottom group that doesn't match. I've seen AOA folks go unmatched in moderately competitive specialties. I saw people who were in the bottom 10% of the class match (and even match high on their lists).

 

[phospho]

Indiana University. 2008 entering class was 308. Yow!

as a premed who's choosing between schools, am I supposed to assume anything if one school doesn't have anyone who scrambles and another school has 3% of its people scramble? would you have used this info in deciding which school you were going to? does this info tell you anything?

 

[ChubbyChaser]

As has been said before, it's not necessarily the bottom group that doesn't match. I've seen AOA folks go unmatched in moderately competitive specialties. I saw people who were in the bottom 10% of the class match (and even match high on their lists).

Right, not necessarily the bottom 10% of the class, but the weakest applicants applying for Said specialty, provided you apply smart and rank accordingly.

 

[tkim]

as a premed who's choosing between schools, am I supposed to assume anything if one school doesn't have anyone who scrambles and another school has 3% of its people scramble? would you have used this info in deciding which school you were going to? does this info tell you anything?

The number itself is nothing unless you know what they were trying to match into and how competitive they really were for the specialty and the specific residencies they ranked and in what order. For all we know, those 27 could have been trying for the most competitive spots and for whatever reason failed to match. You just can't tell.

 

[SoCuteMD]

as a premed who's choosing between schools, am I supposed to assume anything if one school doesn't have anyone who scrambles and another school has 3% of its people scramble? would you have used this info in deciding which school you were going to? does this info tell you anything?

I think it's highly unlikely that any school has no one who scrambles. Also, if they made this claim prior to this year's match it may no longer be true.

 

[phospho]

The number itself is nothing unless you know what they were trying to match into and how competitive they really were for the specialty and the specific residencies they ranked and in what order. For all we know, those 27 could have been trying for the most competitive spots and for whatever reason failed to match. You just can't tell.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

I think it's highly unlikely that any school has no one who scrambles. Also, if they made this claim prior to this year's match it may no longer be true.

I just brought it up as an example. I was curious. I'm looking at two schools: one with just a couple of people scrambling, and another one with over 10 people who scrambled.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

I just brought it up as an example. I was curious. I'm looking at two schools: one with just a couple of people scrambling, and another one with over 10 people who scrambled.

I don't know if you can draw any strong conclusions. Could be bad advising, or it could just be a misestimation by the student. What would be useful is seeing how quickly those folks who needed to scramble found good spots, because that is probably the time when a school proves their worth. (I doubt this data is widely available, though) You might be inclined to look favorably on a school that has a good track record for placing its scramblers because it usually means they use pull, open up slots and/or really work the phones for their seniors who end up in that situation. So I'd say a school where 10 people had to scramble, but scrambled into great spots might be a better choice than a place which had just a few scramblers, but they ended up with that undesirable malignant prelim surgery slot in Forgottenville, USA.

 

[SoCuteMD]

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you.



I just brought it up as an example. I was curious. I'm looking at two schools: one with just a couple of people scrambling, and another one with over 10 people who scrambled.

It's also entirely possible that the school who had just a couple people scrambling discouraged seniors interested in competitive specialties from applying to those specialties, or pushed them to apply to a backup. A backup isn't necessarily a bad idea if you can see yourself practicing in that specialty, but is far from ideal.

 

[niranjan162]

really?

why?

its because of the octo-mom

 

[phospho]

I don't know if you can draw any strong conclusions. Could be bad advising, or it could just be a misestimation by the student. What would be useful is seeing how quickly those folks who needed to scramble found good spots, because that is probably the time when a school proves their worth. (I doubt this data is widely available, though) You might be inclined to look favorably on a school that has a good track record for placing its scramblers because it usually means they use pull, open up slots and/or really work the phones for their seniors who end up in that situation. So I'd say a school where 10 people had to scramble, but scrambled into great spots might be a better choice than a place which had just a few scramblers, but they ended up with that undesirable malignant prelim surgery slot in Forgottenville, USA.

That is an awesome post, thank you! I'm going to try to find that data if I can, and see what ended up happening to those scramblers, and how they feel about their school now after that stressful ordeal. I'll see what I can come up with.

It's also entirely possible that the school who had just a couple people scrambling discouraged seniors interested in competitive specialties from applying to those specialties, or pushed them to apply to a backup. A backup isn't necessarily a bad idea if you can see yourself practicing in that specialty, but is far from ideal.

you are absolutely right... and that's what i was thinking. I even looked at last year's match list to see if they had too many scramblers which could have forced the administration to convince everyone to shoot for the less competitive specialties. Very nice point.

 

[ANCAdoc]

Holy moly! How could your dean's office handle this? Was this at Indiana University SOM? You guys have a huge class. We had 4 people scramble out of ~140, with 2 of them for prelim spots.

Yeah, it was IU. I asked one of the dean's the number, and I thought he said 27, but it could have been 22. Our class size back when I started was ~280, not sure how many we lost.

This was an anomaly here. They never have this many scramble (though I cannot confirm that this was a first). Could be due to the fact that since our average Step 1 was 230 (can you believe that?!) many decided on very competitive fields. Two friends were trying for ortho surgery and did not match. Both are finding a research year. One going for radiology with excellent USMLE scores still does not have a position and is not sure what to do.

I helped a friend scramble (from anesthesiology to family medicine). I was shocked to see how little help he got from the administration. We practically had to do everything ourselves. I expected the deans to make calls on behalf of those scrambling because half the battle is trying to speak with someone over the phone. They needed dean-level admins and dept chairs there to make calls and get our students spots, but I did not see this happen. There is something terribly wrong with the system here.

 

[Mr hawkings]

Yeah, it was IU. I asked one of the dean's the number, and I thought he said 27, but it could have been 22. Our class size back when I started was ~280, not sure how many we lost.

This was an anomaly here. They never have this many scramble (though I cannot confirm that this was a first). Could be due to the fact that since our average Step 1 was 230 (can you believe that?!) many decided on very competitive fields. Two friends were trying for ortho surgery and did not match. Both are finding a research year. One going for radiology with excellent USMLE scores still does not have a position and is not sure what to do.

I helped a friend scramble (from anesthesiology to family medicine). I was shocked to see how little help he got from the administration. We practically had to do everything ourselves. I expected the deans to make calls on behalf of those scrambling because half the battle is trying to speak with someone over the phone. They needed dean-level admins and dept chairs there to make calls and get our students spots, but I did not see this happen. There is something terribly wrong with the system here.

Are you sure they are even allowed to do this? I've honestly never heard of a dean of a medical school calling on behalf of a scrambling student.

 

[Depakote]

Are you sure they are even allowed to do this? I've honestly never heard of a dean of a medical school calling on behalf of a scrambling student.

why not? If a dean could write a letter for student during the process, and the student is having trouble matching, why can't the dean call a program with an open slot and vouch for that student?

I went to a dean's round table and the dean of my school says that he's done it and would do it for us if we needed it.

 

[Taurus]

Yeah, it was IU. I asked one of the dean's the number, and I thought he said 27, but it could have been 22. Our class size back when I started was ~280, not sure how many we lost.

This is ridiculous. Should be no more than 10 for that class size. Sounds like bad advising to me. This was a particularly bad year for scrambling too.

 

[Law2Doc]

Are you sure they are even allowed to do this? I've honestly never heard of a dean of a medical school calling on behalf of a scrambling student.

I don't know about the dean specifically, but in general, the big names at most schools will work the phones for those students that need to scramble. You'd be surprised how many folks get spots through private direct lines rather than the always busy secretary screened number issued by NRMP. It's why IMGs get slaughtered in the scramble (they don't have anybody to call for them).

 

[Dirt]

I don't know about the dean specifically, but in general, the big names at most schools will work the phones for those students that need to scramble. You'd be surprised how many folks get spots through private direct lines rather than the always busy secretary screened number issued by NRMP. It's why IMGs get slaughtered in the scramble (they don't have anybody to call for them).

Literally every office in our school is closed down and commits their resources to scrambling seniors on scramble day. I know for a fact that lots of back channel communication goes on between high ups at my school with program directors. It is very reassuring.

 

[hermit]

Literally every office in our school is closed down and commits their resources to scrambling seniors on scramble day. I know for a fact that lots of back channel communication goes on between high ups at my school with program directors. It is very reassuring.

Ditto. I thought this was normal...

 

[ANCAdoc]

Ditto. I thought this was normal...

It really is the only way to get through. I spent 6hrs with him placing calls, and we only got to maybe 4-6 programs. Meaning, we spoke with a person. Most of those told us they either were not filling the spots or he would need an advanced spot to be considered (if it was transitional). Or, they said the spot was filled.

Luckily, his advisor was helping him. She placed a call or email and somehow got him an FP spot in our state if he wanted it. We tried for IM programs but when push came to shove he took the FP program. That whole day he only got to speak with 1 PD and that was in IM. They liked him but unfortunately he spoke with them too late. So, he was on the short list should the other person decline.

The scramble is the worst thing I experienced thus far in my educational endeavors, and it didn't even happen to me. Careers live and die by the minute.

 

[copingmethods]

It really is the only way to get through. I spent 6hrs with him placing calls, and we only got to maybe 4-6 programs. Meaning, we spoke with a person. Most of those told us they either were not filling the spots or he would need an advanced spot to be considered (if it was transitional). Or, they said the spot was filled.

Luckily, his advisor was helping him. She placed a call or email and somehow got him an FP spot in our state if he wanted it. We tried for IM programs but when push came to shove he took the FP program. That whole day he only got to speak with 1 PD and that was in IM. They liked him but unfortunately he spoke with them too late. So, he was on the short list should the other person decline.

The scramble is the worst thing I experienced thus far in my educational endeavors, and it didn't even happen to me. Careers live and die by the minute.

For getting into your desired specialty, wouldn't it be better to do a research year and try again next year than to scramble into a family practice spot?

 

[MeowMix]

For getting into your desired specialty, wouldn't it be better to do a research year and try again next year than to scramble into a family practice spot?

Not necessarily. Research year might = paying more tuition, vs. getting paid. Lots of people do an initial year and then switch if they need to. You are more attractive as a successful intern than as a reapplicant student, in some specialties.

As far as residency slots, you can all relax, because the RVU students keep telling us that their dean is going to create 300 new dually accredited residency slots in Colorado and the surrounding region by the time they graduate in 2012. In all specialties. And that's just one DO school dean.

 

[scube]

the dean of student affairs used to go over every applicants ROL, talk to them about interviews, ect ect. He said that it going online took him out of the equation and we had a greater number have to scramble. Plain and simple he is back to looking at every ROL. a lot of the problem at our school was poor ranking. Im glad I have him on my side. Do your schools review your lists.

 

[Taurus]

Not necessarily. Research year might = paying more tuition, vs. getting paid. Lots of people do an initial year and then switch if they need to. You are more attractive as a successful intern than as a reapplicant student, in some specialties.

But the problem is that you don't have much time during internship to do interviews. I interviewed from mid-Nov to early Feb as an MSIV. As an intern, you may get 1 month off for interviews. When you reapply, especially competitive specialties like derm, rads, etc, you need to apply even more broadly and do more interviews and you need to apply to a backup field like IM.

 

[MeowMix]

But the problem is that you don't have much time during internship to do interviews.

that's true, I hadn't thought of that, but 3 months of interviewing? that seems like self-torture of the worst kind.

 

[JonnyG]

the dean of student affairs used to go over every applicants ROL, talk to them about interviews, ect ect. He said that it going online took him out of the equation and we had a greater number have to scramble. Plain and simple he is back to looking at every ROL. a lot of the problem at our school was poor ranking. Im glad I have him on my side. Do your schools review your lists.

unless you mean people left places off their rank order list, ranking programs will not prevent you from matching. As long as ts on the list and you are ranked higher then other people by the program the spot is yours. It doesnt matter if it is first or last on your list.

 

[peppy]

So the match will be getting more competitive, but shouldnt the only ones worrying about whether or not they match (for most specialities) be those who are in the bottom 10% applying for each given specialty or those who apply stupidly?? Granted it may not be at their top choice.
The vast majority will still be unaffected, or am i understanding this incorrectly?

One reason this issue should concern everyone is that matching or not matching is not based on clearcut academic merit. A huge factor is the interview, which is completely subjective. You can do your best to give a good impression at the interview, but you may still come across in a negative way if you just happen to be unlucky to get an interviewer whose personality or interests don't mesh with yours.
The more competitive the match becomes, the more that programs will have their pick of applicants with good academic credentials. When you're being compared against numerous other top students, the fact that your interviewer just didn't like the way you looked or an answer you gave may mean the difference between being ranked to match or not.

 

[Medstudentquest]

One reason this issue should concern everyone is that matching or not matching is not based on clearcut academic merit. A huge factor is the interview, which is completely subjective. You can do your best to give a good impression at the interview, but you may still come across in a negative way if you just happen to be unlucky to get an interviewer whose personality or interests don't mesh with yours.
The more competitive the match becomes, the more that programs will have their pick of applicants with good academic credentials. When you're being compared against numerous other top students, the fact that your interviewer just didn't like the way you looked or an answer you gave may mean the difference between being ranked to match or not.

Peppy,

Any luck finding a good spot?

 

[Medstudentquest]

One reason this issue should concern everyone is that matching or not matching is not based on clearcut academic merit. A huge factor is the interview, which is completely subjective. You can do your best to give a good impression at the interview, but you may still come across in a negative way if you just happen to be unlucky to get an interviewer whose personality or interests don't mesh with yours.
The more competitive the match becomes, the more that programs will have their pick of applicants with good academic credentials. When you're being compared against numerous other top students, the fact that your interviewer just didn't like the way you looked or an answer you gave may mean the difference between being ranked to match or not.

Peppy,

Any luck finding a good spot?

 

[peppy]

Yes, I did find a spot in an osteopathic program. Keep us updated on how things are going for you...hope you too get a spot you're happy about. 🙂

 

[jdinovit]

I went through the match and had to scramble as well. I got in to a program and am happy right now. From someone who went through the process, I see a lot of false comments made by people who did not go through the match.

The match has a large random component to it and depends mostly on luck. There are highly qualified people with good board scores (such as myself) who failed to match even in not a very competitive residency. And there are individuals with very low scores who do match in the most competitive residencies in your same class to the same programs that rejected you.

Why is this? Maybe your interviewer didn't like you for whatever reason. Maybe he was in a bad mood that day. Maybe your interviewer thought that you were "too good" and would not seriously consider their program and instead rank one with a better reputation. Maybe the program had 100 people they really wanted all on the same level more or less and with only 10 spots, they randomly assigned the 100. Maybe the program thought you weren't serious because you didn't do a rotation there or because you want to do a specialty they are not linked to. Who knows.

 

[Orthodoc40]

There are plenty of unfilled residency spots. Thousands. One problem: they are things like family practice.

Pre-meds do not know this. Mention it to your friends.

People don't hear these warnings!! They think that they are 'special' - or different - and that it will not apply to them.

Our school had more scramblers this year. Someone didn't match in peds.
But I believe it was a mistake of ranking too few programs or something. And that it is even more random a process than getting in to med school.

 

[Orthodoc40]

Are you sure they are even allowed to do this? I've honestly never heard of a dean of a medical school calling on behalf of a scrambling student.

That's how it happens, basically. Or the dean's office basically. Fax machines meltdown from overuse, email boxes get maxed out and phones are busy until the school has worked something out for their scramblers.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Right, not necessarily the bottom 10% of the class, but the weakest applicants applying for Said specialty, provided you apply smart and rank accordingly.

You state this like it's a linear relationship and it's really not. People who are average competitiveness for a specialty might not match, while folks who are not competitive somehow manage to to do so. It truly seems random in many cases - that's what I am trying to say.

 

[Dr. McDreamy]

It seems to me that many (if not all) of the people in my class that ended up scrambling did so because they made their ROL's poorly. The people who did not match did so because they only ranked one or two programs (ie "suicide" matching), or only ranked a very competitive specialty with no backup specialty. Just because you are doing FM which is not competitive, doesn't mean that you should just rest on your laurels and only rank a couple of places (which is what happened to one person who did not match in FM). When I was making my rank list I asked myself "would I rather scramble ANYWHERE in the country than go here?" I ended up ranking 4 programs that I knew I would be happy at and another 2 that I wasn't crazy in love with, but were good programs that would never have a spot unfilled. The last was a backup that I knew I would match at if I went that low on my match list. I got my #3. 🙂

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

It seems to me that many (if not all) of the people in my class that ended up scrambling did so because they made their ROL's poorly. The people who did not match did so because they only ranked one or two programs (ie "suicide" matching), or only ranked a very competitive specialty with no backup specialty. Just because you are doing FM which is not competitive, doesn't mean that you should just rest on your laurels and only rank a couple of places (which is what happened to one person who did not match in FM). When I was making my rank list I asked myself "would I rather scramble ANYWHERE in the country than go here?" I ended up ranking 4 programs that I knew I would be happy at and another 2 that I wasn't crazy in love with, but were good programs that would never have a spot unfilled. The last was a backup that I knew I would match at if I went that low on my match list. I got my #3. 🙂

Agree - the most common reason that people at my school fail to match is because of a poor choice in ROL and/or overall application strategy (the suicide match as you mention)