3.3, no premed yet - my chances?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

vmc303

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2003
Messages
233
Reaction score
0
I graduated this year from an Ivy League school, 3.3 GPA in philosophy, no premed classes. How much of an uphill struggle am I facing if I want to go to med school? I'd need to spend at least a year at the local university, taking premed courses. Assuming I bust my ass and get straight A's in 12 or so classes, my overall GPA goes up to a 3.5 (but 4.0 science). At the same time, I'd get involved in either research or volunteer work and hopefully do something significant with that. Finally, I've always been an extremely good test taker, and I know I could score in the 99th percentile on the MCAT.

After all this, say two years from now, where would I stand? Please be honest -- I don't want to start thinking along these lines if in the end I won't even be able to get into my state's medical school. Would I be a candidate for any top tier schools?

My other option is law school, so I've been looking at med schools with a bit of a law school mentality. Does "prestige" of the school really matter, or is it much more important to do well and place into a highly regarded training program? Any info would be appreciated.
 
vmc303 said:
I graduated this year from an Ivy League school, 3.3 GPA in philosophy, no premed classes. How much of an uphill struggle am I facing if I want to go to med school? I'd need to spend at least a year at the local university, taking premed courses. Assuming I bust my ass and get straight A's in 12 or so classes, my overall GPA goes up to a 3.5 (but 4.0 science). At the same time, I'd get involved in either research or volunteer work and hopefully do something significant with that. Finally, I've always been an extremely good test taker, and I know I could score in the 99th percentile on the MCAT.

After all this, say two years from now, where would I stand? Please be honest -- I don't want to start thinking along these lines if in the end I won't even be able to get into my state's medical school. Would I be a candidate for any top tier schools?
Whoa...have you already started? Your plan sounds fine, but there's another option. You don't have any premed classes, did you ever consider doing a formal linkage program?

If you do well enough in a formal linkage program you can get automatically accepted into a medical school. I think top-tier is a funny term. This usually refers to the top 50 US News medical school research rankings. US News also puts out rankings for Primary Care, no one pays attention to these! I honestly don't think rankings matter much unless you're into research or going for an extremely competitive residency program. I'm not applying till next year, but 2 out of my 3 top choices are not ranked. But I digress. Anyway, some of these medical schools for these linkage programs are prestigious, top-tier schools.

These are some of the "top tier" linkages (tend to be more competitive to get into):

Hunter--> Cornell
http://www.hunter.cuny.edu/arts_sci/preprofessional.shtml
Bryn Mawr--> Brown, Dartmouth, Rochester
http://www.brynmawr.edu/postbac/
Johns Hopkins-->Rochester
http://www.jhu.edu/postbac/index.html

There's other linkages too, for example I have a friend who's doing this one
Duquesne--> Temple
http://www.duq.edu/postbac/

You can find more here:
http://services.aamc.org/postbac/

also try a search on here for linkages
vmc303 said:
Does "prestige" of the school really matter, or is it much more important to do well and place into a highly regarded training program?
Prestige doesn't matter as much for med schools as it does for law schools. But the big name schools do tend to get much better placement into the most competitive programs (e.g., look at Yale's matchlist and see how they matched for derm). For the most part though, prestige doesn't matter that much and pretty much any AAMC, LCME-accredited school can get you a into a competitive residency program. Now that I think about it, even non-AAMC, non LCME-accredited schools (e.g., osteopathic schools and some foreign schools) have excellent matches too.
 
The answer to your main question is--it's up to you. If you get a 3.5 and are in the 99th percentile of the MCAT, you will almost definitely get into some phenomenal med schools. Some general thoughts on your situation:

1. A 3.3 from an Ivy is not at all bad. It's just barely on the low side of the average successful applicants gpa, but since it's from an ivy, you should get some leeway on it, especially if the rest of your app is good.

2. Your probably going to take some **** for your assertion that you can get into the 99th percentile on the MCAT. Haven't taken it yet, but it's supposed to be a lot harder than other standardized tests. But, if you really do get that score, you're golden.

3. You should probably talk to the pre-med advisor at your alma mater. He or she should be able to help you plan a good post-bac courseload.

4. Consider taking your post-bacs at the best school you can go to, instead of your local state U. This will help impress adcoms.

5. If you aren't set on MD, but will consider a DO, your 3.3 gpa is certainly very competitive.

6. Med schools aren't like law schools. If you graduate from a bottom tier law school, you will have trouble getting a job. There are no bottom tier med schools, only top tier and medium tier. If you graduate from any med school, you'll get a good job.

7. There are differences between med schools, of course. The "top" med schools (think Hopkins, Duke, Harvard, etc) are actually known for producing good researchers. If your goal is to be a clinical doc, you probably don't need to go to one of these, and in fact might not enjoy them as much as a school that emphasizes clinical training.

8. Residency is the most important thing. Of course coming out of Harvard will make you a little more competitive for a top residency, but it's by no means the only factor. You can go to any med school and, if you do well, match into the residency program you want.

9. Lastly, I don't know you and won't judge you, but whenever I hear somebody say "I'm thinking of law, or medicine", I think: this person probably hasn't figured out exactly what they want out of life. The reason for this is that they are very different fields. Many college students are attracted to these fields because they seem like a sure way to land a good job making lots of money. I promise you, there are a MILLION other good jobs out there, many of which you haven't heard of yet. My honest advice is take a year or two to work and get some life experience. While you're doing this, take some time to do volunteer work or shadow a few docs, and see if medicine is really for you. Check out law in the same way. You might find you really want to pursue one of these fields, or, you might decide to do something else entirely.

My story: I'm 28, had no idea what I wanted to do in college, and ended up working in computers for about five years (which is not what I studied in undergrad). I knew nothing about computer jobs before I literally fell into one, and ended up with an enjoyable--and lucrative--career. It's only with some seasoning that I've now realized I want to be a physician. This after months of volunteer work, shadowing, talking to docs, reading up on the field, and making certain it's something I really want to sacrifice the next 10 years of my life and a quarter million dollars training to do.

Take some time and figure it out, and then if you're still interested, you can commit fully, which is the only way to make it happen. You don't have to go to law school or med school to have a great career. It just seems that way before you get out into the world and meet lots of successful people, most of whom never did either.

Best of luck.
 
I agree with a lot of this; I would offer you some caution about your assertion that you will score 99th percentile on the MCAT. This is a hard test, and remember, there are a lot of excellent test-takers as well out there (myself unfortunately *not* being one of them ;-) ) who can theoretically score 99th percentile on any standardized test. I would echo the previous comments, too, about finding out exactly what you are truly interested in. The legal profession is vastly different from the medical profession, a reality that will become all too apparent if you decide to enter medicine. Good luck.

Pemulis said:
The answer to your main question is--it's up to you. If you get a 3.5 and are in the 99th percentile of the MCAT, you will almost definitely get into some phenomenal med schools. Some general thoughts on your situation:

1. A 3.3 from an Ivy is not at all bad. It's just barely on the low side of the average successful applicants gpa, but since it's from an ivy, you should get some leeway on it, especially if the rest of your app is good.

2. Your probably going to take some **** for your assertion that you can get into the 99th percentile on the MCAT. Haven't taken it yet, but it's supposed to be a lot harder than other standardized tests. But, if you really do get that score, you're golden.

3. You should probably talk to the pre-med advisor at your alma mater. He or she should be able to help you plan a good post-bac courseload.

4. Consider taking your post-bacs at the best school you can go to, instead of your local state U. This will help impress adcoms.

5. If you aren't set on MD, but will consider a DO, your 3.3 gpa is certainly very competitive.

6. Med schools aren't like law schools. If you graduate from a bottom tier law school, you will have trouble getting a job. There are no bottom tier med schools, only top tier and medium tier. If you graduate from any med school, you'll get a good job.

7. There are differences between med schools, of course. The "top" med schools (think Hopkins, Duke, Harvard, etc) are actually known for producing good researchers. If your goal is to be a clinical doc, you probably don't need to go to one of these, and in fact might not enjoy them as much as a school that emphasizes clinical training.

8. Residency is the most important thing. Of course coming out of Harvard will make you a little more competitive for a top residency, but it's by no means the only factor. You can go to any med school and, if you do well, match into the residency program you want.

9. Lastly, I don't know you and won't judge you, but whenever I hear somebody say "I'm thinking of law, or medicine", I think: this person probably hasn't figured out exactly what they want out of life. The reason for this is that they are very different fields. Many college students are attracted to these fields because they seem like a sure way to land a good job making lots of money. I promise you, there are a MILLION other good jobs out there, many of which you haven't heard of yet. My honest advice is take a year or two to work and get some life experience. While you're doing this, take some time to do volunteer work or shadow a few docs, and see if medicine is really for you. Check out law in the same way. You might find you really want to pursue one of these fields, or, you might decide to do something else entirely.

My story: I'm 28, had no idea what I wanted to do in college, and ended up working in computers for about five years (which is not what I studied in undergrad). I knew nothing about computer jobs before I literally fell into one, and ended up with an enjoyable--and lucrative--career. It's only with some seasoning that I've now realized I want to be a physician. This after months of volunteer work, shadowing, talking to docs, reading up on the field, and making certain it's something I really want to sacrifice the next 10 years of my life and a quarter million dollars training to do.

Take some time and figure it out, and then if you're still interested, you can commit fully, which is the only way to make it happen. You don't have to go to law school or med school to have a great career. It just seems that way before you get out into the world and meet lots of successful people, most of whom never did either.

Best of luck.
 
Thanks for the advice. I realize that someone who is deciding between law and medicine is a probably someone who doesn't know what he wants to do, and this exactly the case. The thing is though, I'm the sort of person who's been thinking about what he wants to do since he was about 10 years old, and I'm no closer to reaching a decision now than I was then. My interests are all over the place. There're probably a dozen different professions I could go into and enjoy the work, and when you limit it the careers that pay well enough to support a comfortable lifestyle, law and medicine are what's left. I'm not starting down either of these paths for another few years at least -- I plan to work for a while first -- but knowing me, it'll just come down to a more or less arbitrary decision between the two. I'm OK with this, and I'll continue to explore everything I can, but I just wanted to know if medicine was even still an option for me. You guys have answered that one well.

Also, re: the 99th percentile on the MCAT, I'm just looking at the best case scenario. Obviously, if I get a mediocre MCAT score, medciore post-bacc grades, etc., I'm pretty clearly not in the running for med schools, so that's not really worth thinking about. What I meant was, given my prior performance on tests of these sort, I've got good reason to think that I at least have the *ability* to do that well if I really set my mind to it; now whether or not I actually study enough and work hard enough to achieve that score is a different story.
 
vmc303 said:
Thanks for the advice. I realize that someone who is deciding between law and medicine is a probably someone who doesn't know what he wants to do, and this exactly the case. The thing is though, I'm the sort of person who's been thinking about what he wants to do since he was about 10 years old, and I'm no closer to reaching a decision now than I was then. My interests are all over the place. There're probably a dozen different professions I could go into and enjoy the work, and when you limit it the careers that pay well enough to support a comfortable lifestyle, law and medicine are what's left. I'm not starting down either of these paths for another few years at least -- I plan to work for a while first -- but knowing me, it'll just come down to a more or less arbitrary decision between the two. I'm OK with this, and I'll continue to explore everything I can, but I just wanted to know if medicine was even still an option for me. You guys have answered that one well.

Also, re: the 99th percentile on the MCAT, I'm just looking at the best case scenario. Obviously, if I do average on the LSAT, get an average set of post-bacc grades, etc., I'm pretty clearly not in the running for med schools, so that's not really worth thinking about. What I meant was, given my prior performance on tests of these sort, I've got good reason to think that I at least have the *ability* to do that well if I really set my mind to it; now whether or not I actually study enough and work hard enough to achieve that score is a different story.

If I were you, I would volunteer at a hospital. If you have not done so already, honestly, I think this will give you some clue as to whether or not the atmosphere is good for you or not. I worked at a hospital for 2 years until realizing that caring for people and trying to cure them was what I wanted to dedicate my life to. My path wasnt easy, I now being 26, with a pre-law BA, and a Masters degree and being in debt up to my ears. But, in the end, I finally found my interest. This only coming from having worked a million different jobs only to land one that finally opened up my eyes and made me realize where my true passion lied.

Give yourself time, and if you can experience is the only way to go when it comes to wanting medicine. A textbook about biology is one thing, having to deal with patients on a one on one basis is another. Even if its just shadowing at a local clinic. Give it a try and reflect on the experience. Good luck on your decision.
 
There're probably a dozen different professions I could go into and enjoy the work, and when you limit it the careers that pay well enough to support a comfortable lifestyle, law and medicine are what's left.


I can sympathize with your difficulty in figuring your direction out. I've always been the kind of person with a million interests too, and I went through the same thing at your age. But I really have to address this misconception: law and medicine are NOT all that's left. The vast majority of "comfortable" people in this country are neither lawyers nor doctors. Marketing executives, IT managers, Actuaries, Copy Writers, and Investment Bankers--to name just five out of literally hundreds of careers--all make very, very, handsome salaries, and without the years of debt and training it takes to become a doc. So if you check medicine out and decide to go for it because you really do like it, then great. But please, don't make the mistake of thinking only law or medicine can get you where you want to go in life.

You said you graduated from an Ivy. I suggest you go talk to a career councilor there. I'm currently a Penn student, and I can tell you that the career office here is awesome, and hundreds of companies come to recruit on campus each year. Use the education you already have to your advantage while you're figuring things out. You might just find yourself making plenty of dough doing something you never even knew existed.
 
My advice to you is to take the time to get to know what is really out there. I'm another one of those people with a zillion aptitudes and a zillion interests (and about zero focus, which is a big problem). I majored in music and religion in undergrad (with about a 3.3), worked for a couple of years after school, then decided to go back and take a crack at vet school. Veterinary medicine is really the field that combines many of my passions. But it took me a while to figure that out. Two years ago, I never would have thought I'd be here now.

Honestly, if you go through the med school admissions process and anything in your personal statement or interview even suggests to the adcom that you are applying to med school because "when you limit it the careers that pay well enough to support a comfortable lifestyle, law and medicine are what's left" and you've made a remotely arbitrary decision to go for medicine, you will almost certainly be denied admission. Beyond looking at grades and MCAT scores, adcoms are going to admit people who they have reason to believe will be great doctors someday. And to be a good doctor, you have to want to be a doctor.

Also, there are other jobs out there that offer a chance to earn a good living. I think you would be better off taking a year or two away from school and really exploring life outside of academia. There are lots of different jobs and careers out there that you might not even be familiar with. The careers they teach you about in grade school (which really are the only careers most people are familiar with) are the professionals you encounter each day - doctors, lawyers, teachers, police officers, etc. This is especially true if you grew up in a small town. But there is way more out there, and you will find your true passion if you look for it.
 
Vegan and Pemulis,

I guess I was using "comfortable" a bit euphemistically -- what I'm really talking about is affluent. When both of your parents are doctors, you get used to a certain lifestyle that very few occupations make possible. Nice home, ski vacations, good restaurants, etc. I wish that stuff didn't matter to me, but I can't deny that it does, and if I'm not as well off as my parents were, I think that will bother me.

The other thing that's important to me (of foremost importance, actually) is a career that's intellectually satisfying. During senior year of college, I spent a lot of time looking into investment banking, management consulting, advertising, etc., all the fields that recruit right out of undergrad. While these all require "brains" and a certain savviness, for the intellectually curious, they really can't compare to things like neurology or appelate litigation. The way I see it, both medicine and law are unique among the professions in that they allow you to directly integrate theory and practice. I love the idea of doing research, publishing journal articles, staying on top of the latest debates in the field, and then turning around and applying all that to real world situations. So really, medicine and law have some obvious huge differences, but there're also some important similarities that make both of them tremendously appealing to me.

One final aside, I'm not jumping headlong into either of these. I'm giving myself at least two years to work and figure things out before I even think of heading back to school, and, following your suggestions, I'd like to do something in that time that might help me narrow in on a career choice. So the more immediate question all of this bears on is whether right now I try to get a job as a paralegal, or find work in a hospital and maybe enroll in a few of the basic premed courses. At this very moment, I'm split exactly 50/50 between the two career paths, so even *that* relatively minor decision is causing some consternation. 🙂

Thanks for all your advice.
 
vmc303 said:
Vegan and Pemulis,

I guess I was using "comfortable" a bit euphemistically -- what I'm really talking about is affluent. When both of your parents are doctors, you get used to a certain lifestyle that very few occupations make possible. Nice home, ski vacations, good restaurants, etc. I wish that stuff didn't matter to me, but I can't deny that it does, and if I'm not as well off as my parents were, I think that will bother me.

The other thing that's important to me (of foremost importance, actually) is a career that's intellectually satisfying. During senior year of college, I spent a lot of time looking into investment banking, management consulting, advertising, etc., all the fields that recruit right out of undergrad. While these all require "brains" and a certain savviness, for the intellectually curious, they really can't compare to things like neurology or appelate litigation. The way I see it, both medicine and law are unique among the professions in that they allow you to directly integrate theory and practice. I love the idea of doing research, publishing journal articles, staying on top of the latest debates in the field, and then turning around and applying all that to real world situations. So really, medicine and law have some obvious huge differences, but there're also some important similarities that make both of them tremendously appealing to me.

One final aside, I'm not jumping headlong into either of these. I'm giving myself at least two years to work and figure things out before I even think of heading back to school, and, following your suggestions, I'd like to do something in that time that might help me narrow in on a career choice. So the more immediate question all of this bears on is whether right now I try to get a job as a paralegal, or find work in a hospital and maybe enroll in a few of the basic premed courses. At this very moment, I'm split exactly 50/50 between the two career paths, so even *that* relatively minor decision is causing some consternation. 🙂

Thanks for all your advice.

Funny, I too considered law once, I have a BA in Philosophy, Politics, and law and thought once that law or medicine are the it things to do. But, the OP is right, these are not the only two careers lucritive enough to make you money. I know, money is something that is important in life, besides, you have bills to pay just like the next person. You need some experience, is my thought. Good luck!
 
This might be the weirdest advice you've ever gotten - but I say settle in a big city and work for a temp agency for a while. You will learn a lot about what kind of careers are out there.

As for lucrative careers, I used to work for an accountant who wore $1000 shirts and wrote with $5000 pens. No, I am not exaggerating. I couldn't even fathom that - I still can't. But that's what's out there.
 
A couple of things.

-You could spend a lot more time thinking about what you want to do, but the truth is that you won't really know what a field is like until you're knee-deep in it. I think shadowing and the like are valuable, but ultimately limited.

-A 3.3 will not keep you out of running. If you score over 30 on MCAT, I'd say you have a pretty good shot. You might even get into some pretty good schools. I was almost exactly in your shoes and ended up getting in.

-Medicine isn't intellectually challenging like you might think. I don't think the vast majority of the practice of law is, either.
 
Top