6 year derm residency at BU

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Lavenderm said:
http://www.bumc.bu.edu/derm/trainin...program/information-for-residency-applicants/

What do you guys think about this? Is this a new trend for derm residency?
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Interesting, I would say it is most definitely NOT the new trend for derm residencies. They tend to do things with an academic twist at Boston, I believe their dermpath fellowship is prolonged as compared to typical programs too.

I had interest in going back to academics after residency but not if someone is stipulating a minimum of 3 years
 
It is unclear to me how the program can actually enforce the second portion of the residency (i.e., the 3 year faculty part). I believe that ACGME rules prevent making such arrangements part of the residency employment contract (even traditional residency contracts are just renewed on an annual basis). It seems like once an individual has graduated from three year residency portion, there is little the program can legally do to make them stay on as faculty. They are basically relying on the honor system (i.e., "If we take you, you have to agree to stay on as faculty for 3 years")

Of course, as an applicant you should still apply for this program. Just rank it low (higher if you have no qualms about bailing out after year 3). Even if you intend to keep your word, three years of being faculty is better than being unmatched.
 
reno911 said:
It is unclear to me how the program can actually enforce the second portion of the residency (i.e., the 3 year faculty part). I believe that ACGME rules prevent making such arrangements part of the residency employment contract (even traditional residency contracts are just renewed on an annual basis). It seems like once an individual has graduated from three year residency portion, there is little the program can legally do to make them stay on as faculty. They are basically relying on the honor system (i.e., "If we take you, you have to agree to stay on as faculty for 3 years")

Of course, as an applicant you should still apply for this program. Just rank it low (higher if you have no qualms about bailing out after year 3). Even if you intend to keep your word, three years of being faculty is better than being unmatched.
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Or, alternatively, speak with a lawyer to determine legal standing and tell them to get ****** after the three years. Sounds like extortion's ugly second cousin to me.

(The only caveat being if these positions are offered outside of the match and do not involve, in any way, public funds for its financing. If that is the case, then caveat emptor. )
 
I wonder if the "pgy5 junior faculty" would be paid peanuts. Doesn't looks like any info on salary is described in detail
 
sore eye asses said:
Come to majestic BU, where your derm training lasts as long as a neurosurgery residency...
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Or more like utter hubris without the actual prestige and majesty. I'm sure Tufts and Harvard are laughing their butts off.

Dermione Granger said:
I wonder if the "pgy5 junior faculty" would be paid peanuts. Doesn't looks like any info on salary is described in detail
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I don't think you'd be a PGY-5 in that framework. You'd be a junior faculty member - maybe Instructor or Assistant Professor?
 
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MOHS_01 said:
****ing asinine is what I think of that. Another reason to 🙄 at academia in general -- and Boston in particular.
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What I don't understand is instead of MANDATING that residents stay after residency, why not actually mentor them enough to where they actually want to stay as faculty? Are the Dermatology faculty at BU so insufferable or malignant that they actually have to mandate residents to stay on?

FAQ’s
Q: Can I do a fellowship after the ACGME-accredited portion of training?

A: We are fully supportive of those residents who want to continue their training. Residents will be allowed to take time off to complete fellowship training, before returning as a faculty member to complete the second phase of the program.

Q: Am I guaranteed a faculty position after residency training?

A: We will make every effort to ensure that all trainees will be able to complete their full two phase program. If the Department Executive Committee determines that it is unable to accommodate the hiring of additional faculty members, your participation will be completed after three years.
 
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reno911 said:
It is unclear to me how the program can actually enforce the second portion of the residency (i.e., the 3 year faculty part). I believe that ACGME rules prevent making such arrangements part of the residency employment contract (even traditional residency contracts are just renewed on an annual basis). It seems like once an individual has graduated from three year residency portion, there is little the program can legally do to make them stay on as faculty. They are basically relying on the honor system (i.e., "If we take you, you have to agree to stay on as faculty for 3 years")
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You're right reno. This is unenforceable. Period.

It's a cute way to make the program seem more committed to you. They even state at the end of the web posting that if they are unable to get you a faculty position then your commitment ends in three years...basically, they don't actually commit anyway. We have a term for this: marketing. It's all cute and dandy but only go here if you would go here anyway. Don't choose it for a faculty position. People wanting to stay in academia will have many choices at the end of their training and there is no reason to lock yourself down. You can get good mentoring at a lot of places as a faculty member.

To OP: BTW, this is not a 6 year residency. It's a 3 year residency and a three year mentored junior faculty position. I really really hope that is not code for "we will pay you less because you will be mentored." You should not need to take a larger pay cut than what you will already take for staying in academics.

Finally let's not get our knickers in a twist over this. It's "cute" marketing and that's it. Keep calm and continue applying.
 
DermViser said:
What I don't understand is instead of MANDATING that residents stay after residency, why not actually mentor them enough to where they actually want to stay as faculty? Are the Dermatology faculty at BU so insufferable or malignant that they actually have to mandate residents to stay on?
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Took the words right out of my mouth. Can't agree more.
 
dermathalon said:
You're right reno. This is unenforceable. Period.

It's a cute way to make the program seem more committed to you. They even state at the end of the web posting that if they are unable to get you a faculty position then your commitment ends in three years...basically, they don't actually commit anyway. We have a term for this: marketing. It's all cute and dandy but only go here if you would go here anyway. Don't choose it for a faculty position. People wanting to stay in academia will have many choices at the end of their training and there is no reason to lock yourself down. You can get good mentoring at a lot of places as a faculty member.

To OP: BTW, this is not a 6 year residency. It's a 3 year residency and a three year mentored junior faculty position. I really really hope that is not code for "we will pay you less because you will be mentored." You should not need to take a larger pay cut than what you will already take for staying in academics.

Finally let's not get our knickers in a twist over this. It's "cute" marketing and that's it. Keep calm and continue applying.
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It is enforceable in a sense. You don't do the 3 years as faculty and they blackball you if you want to be faculty somewhere else. I'm just wondering how this is marketing though. If anything it's a huge turnoff. I mean is BU that desperate for faculty?
 
MOHS_01 said:
(The only caveat being if these positions are offered outside of the match and do not involve, in any way, public funds for its financing. If that is the case, then caveat emptor. )
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I'm pretty sure, but not 100% sure, that even if offered outside of the match and privately funded, this still cannot be done if they want to be ACGME accredited. If they don't want to be ACGME accredited, then that's a different story and of course makes the residency essentially worthless.

DermViser said:
It is enforceable in a sense. You don't do the 3 years as faculty and they blackball you if you want to be faculty somewhere else. I'm just wondering how this is marketing though. If anything it's a huge turnoff. I mean is BU that desperate for faculty?
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I considered this, but after thinking about it, it doesn't seem like that big a deal.

1. Derm departments are pretty desperate for faculty, so I'm pretty sure that this kind of thing can be easily overlooked by a desperate department (which most are).

2. The resident could easily threaten a lawsuit if they were "blackballed" by anything other than the absolute truth. In other words the program can say that the resident didn't honor his commitment to remain as faculty for 3 years, but that's pretty much it. What they can't do is say this resident was bad, incompetent, etc, unless they have some prior documentation of such issues. If they have 3 years of documentation that the resident is doing a fine job and suddenly after graduation say that the resident is bad after they failed to follow through on a commitment which the ACGME believes is unfair, then the resident likely has a very easy and costly claim against the derm dept.
 
reno911 said:
2. The resident could easily threaten a lawsuit if they were "blackballed" by anything other than the absolute truth. In other words the program can say that the resident didn't honor his commitment to remain as faculty for 3 years, but that's pretty much it. What they can't do is say this resident was bad, incompetent, etc, unless they have some prior documentation of such issues. If they have 3 years of documentation that the resident is doing a fine job and suddenly after graduation say that the resident is bad after they failed to follow through on a commitment which the ACGME believes is unfair, then the resident likely has a very easy and costly claim against the derm dept.
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Yes, and by not honoring their commitment, the person could be labeled "unprofessional", and they would be, unfortunately correct in that regard. Why? Bc that's the deal you agreed to, if you go there. They won't necessarily say they're bad or incompetent (bc they finished residency after all), but they'll either blackball you in a letter or by phone since every academic derm is friends with every other academic derm. They won't hire you bc they don't want to piss their fellow friend dermie off (the ones they see all the time at AAD and collaborate with). In general, other programs don't get your individual evals during residency. Hiring for a job, esp. in academia, is a lot of time political, based on good word of mouth and holistic review. No matter how desperate academia may be, they won't want to burn bridges.
 
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DermViser said:
Yes, and by not honoring their commitment, the person could be labeled "unprofessional", and they would be, unfortunately correct in that regard. Why? Bc that's the deal you agreed to, if you go there. They won't necessarily say they're bad or incompetent (bc they finished residency after all), but they'll either blackball you in a letter or by phone since every academic derm is friends with every other academic derm. They won't hire you bc they don't want to piss their fellow friend dermie off (the ones they see all the time at AAD and collaborate with). In general, other programs don't get your individual evals during residency. Hiring for a job, esp. in academia, is a lot of time political, based on good word of mouth and holistic review.
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I know that they won't get the evals, but if the failure to hire the guy even looks like it might be based on something negative that the department said, then all that becomes discoverable in the ensuing lawsuit. Everyone will get subpoenaed and even if the department ends up winning it can be a painful process. I'm not saying that they couldn't blackball the guy, but they would have to be extremely careful (especially if they did it in a letter).

Lawsuits like this end up being successful a lot of the time because the prior documentation (i.e., annual evals) are not consistent with the letter or what was said on the phone.

No matter how desperate academia may be, they won't want to burn bridges.
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I'm not going to name names, but I know of several departments (a couple of which I have worked at), who are desperate enough that this would almost certainly be overlooked. Our hypothetical resident in this scenario will certainly be limited, but there are still many academic jobs they could get.
 
reno911 said:
I'm not going to name names, but I know of several departments (a couple of which I have worked at), who are desperate enough that this would almost certainly be overlooked. Our hypothetical resident in this scenario will certainly be limited, but there are still many academic jobs they could get.
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Depending on how desperate they are, there usually is a reason why certain Derm programs are not able to hang onto faculty for too long and have a very high turnover rate.
 
if you are below par for derm and still think it's the golden goose, I could see people taking it......it won't be the top derm applicants though
 
sb247 said:
if you are below par for derm and still think it's the golden goose, I could see people taking it......it won't be the top derm applicants though
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Unless they HAVE to live in Boston.
 
Maybe I'm naive, but I imagine an academic program in a city as desirable as Boston wouldn't have problems filling attending spots.
 
WaylonS said:
Maybe I'm naive, but I imagine an academic program in a city as desirable as Boston wouldn't have problems filling attending spots.
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Then why have a program in which you require that residents stay on as faculty for 3 years after finishing residency? Bc they don't want residents to miss out on their world-renowned mentoring? 😆
 
WaylonS said:
Maybe I'm naive, but I imagine an academic program in a city as desirable as Boston wouldn't have problems filling attending spots.
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Not if you fire them:
http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/art...message_on_vitamin_d_leaves_his_critics_cold/
Holick has been researching photobiology, nutrition, and metabolic bone disease all his working life, but his career really took off when BU’s Department of Dermatology fired him in 2004. (His colleague Dr. Barbara Gilchrest says she merely suggested he resign.)
 
aren't there going to be plenty of jobs in boston as MD will be require to show proficiency in EMR to renew license????? I'm not sure how one will go about doing that, but the older faculty is going to have a difficult time.
 
Many osteopathic dermatology programs have been functioning in this capacity for years. The dermatology program is only available to those completing internal medicine at the home program. However, they are essentially IM/Derm and FM/Derm. None require you to remain as faculty though 😉
 
DermatoFIGHT said:
Many osteopathic dermatology programs have been functioning in this capacity for years. The dermatology program is only available to those completing internal medicine at the home program. However, they are essentially IM/Derm and FM/Derm. None require you to remain as faculty though 😉
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So then, not functioning in this capacity.
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
So then, not functioning in this capacity.
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None with "written" requirement in the residency contract of staying on as faculty. However, there are unwritten and verbal agreements to stay as faculty in exchange for the residency outside of the "residency" contract. Shady but a reality.
 
I just called BU Derm to ask about this program. They said that you will be paid as a full-time junior faculty member once you hit the last 3 years of the 6-year commitment (maybe $250k or so?). It sounds like they're genuinely interested in training academic dermatologists and that they are hoping they will attract longterm faculty members through this program. They also serve a somewhat disadvantaged community in the city of Boston so maybe wanting trainees to give back to their patient population is another reason to look to this type of commitment from their trainees. I suspect that if this is not a good fit for your career path, you probably just shouldn't apply. No need to waste their time or yours.
 
FutureDerm116 said:
I just called BU Derm to ask about this program. They said that you will be paid as a full-time junior faculty member once you hit the last 3 years of the 6-year commitment (maybe $250k or so?). It sounds like they're genuinely interested in training academic dermatologists and that they are hoping they will attract longterm faculty members through this program. They also serve a somewhat disadvantaged community in the city of Boston so maybe wanting trainees to give back to their patient population is another reason to look to this type of commitment from their trainees. I suspect that if this is not a good fit for your career path, you probably just shouldn't apply. No need to waste their time or yours.
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Thank you, gunner, but try harder next time. You think Tufts and Harvard don't serve the disadvantaged community? Give me a break. They probably have the program bc they're desperate for faculty since they can't even get their own graduating residents to stay.
 
Not sure why you're so angry or why you needed to post over 10,000 angry and obnoxious emails since 2009. I guess this speaks for itself. My sense is that we should use this forum in more constructive ways. Like I said, if you think it's a bad idea (or bad program), don't apply. Certainly you are not exactly having an easy time getting a spot yourself, since you have been on this forum for over 5 years and posted so many comments. Maybe your time might be spent more productively than posting on this site so you could actually get the position you're looking for. Good luck!
 
FutureDerm116 said:
Not sure why you're so angry or why you needed to post over 10,000 angry and obnoxious emails since 2009. I guess this speaks for itself. My sense is that we should use this forum in more constructive ways. Like I said, if you think it's a bad idea (or bad program), don't apply. Certainly you are not exactly having an easy time getting a spot yourself, since you have been on this forum for over 5 years and posted so many comments. Maybe your time might be spent more productively than posting on this site so you could actually get the position you're looking for. Good luck!
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Good potshot at the number of posts (which is a complete non sequitur), considering you just signed up yesterday, in which your very first post is to defend BU and tell everyone else not to apply to BU. You don't get to decide what is "constructive" just bc it offends your sensibilities.

You should know that forcing residents to stay on as faculty members is the not the customary way residency programs recruit faculty members. Or at least not ones that are happy.

You think me posting on SDN means I don't have a position? Really? Yup bc it's not like there are people who posted here in this thread who think it's a bad idea who are also derm residents and attendings, right? Wow, you have a lot to learn padawan. Best of luck to you. You'll need it.
 
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