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[KanyeWest222]

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[TriagePreMed]

Honestly, you need to give this better thought. You're throwing in DO, OD, and Podiatry in the same mix. Doesn't seem like you have thought this through at all. You will be doing something you may not enjoy at all just because you believe it'll pay some bills and you will be getting into huge debt for it too, so instead of waiting those 5 years for things to get better, you'll put debt on top and knowledge you don't seem to really want.

And to answer your question, no. There is probably not a single US MD/DO school that will take you with a 2.6 GPA even if you think Chemical Engineering is seen as the hardest degree to ever get. On top of that you probably have no shadowing, research, relevant experience, etc.

I don't know much about OD school, but from what I hear, it is competitive due to the fact that not many schools offer it. Podiatry I really have no idea at all.

Try a Caribbean MD at AUA or Saba. Schools like SGU, AUC, and Ross are probably out of your reach, unless you work on your GPA or miraculously score in the mid-30s on the MCAT. Forget about European schools. Unless you have citizenship there, they will probably not even look at you since most schools are government run and have very few spots for their people only.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I think it is a safe assumption that all M.D. schools in the US are out of question. None of the mentioned programs will accept you with a 2.6 (optometry, podiatry etc.) EXCEPT a foreign M.D. (but you are unlikely to get into even SGU with that GPA).

First, think long and hard about you want to do. I was pre-optometry prior to being pre-med. I thought it was good hours (most work under 40 hrs), relatively high pay, etc. I then hung out with optometrists and let's just say their day is boring as all hell. After doing a lot of research I learned I really wanted to do pediatrics (or possibly pediatric emergency medicine). What you want to do will influence the kind of applicant you need to present yourself as to the school.

Second, if you decide that medicine is indeed the path, I find it very hard to recommend going abroad (if you want to come back and practice in the states). There is a shortage of residency slots, and as more and more medical schools open in the US, IMG are going to be less likely to match. My suggestion is that you take more classes, aim to bring the GPA to a 3.0 and apply to D.O. schools. You should be able to get a solid MCAT. If that fails, the only foreign school I'd even consider is SGU (as a last resort).

Finally, it's too early to tell how the recent changes in health care will affect any one. This should not really be a concern. If you want to become a doctor, there will always be employment. Do what you love. I think this was your original problem. I don't get the sense you were a chemical engineer because you absolutely loved chemical engineering (at least that is what I sensed from your post. I may be wrong).

 

[Nasrudin]

Hello,


I graduated with a degree in Chemical Engineering back in '08. Worked for 1.5 years, laid off this january, job search has been absolutely brutal. I've done an analysis of job prospects within the industries I'm qualified for - realistically, with the number of jobs shed in '08 and '09 in those industries, we're looking at 5 or more years of extremely strong job growth until we get back to '07 levels. That's being optimistic. Realistically, it's closer to 10. Given how competitive it's become even for mediocre positions paying 40-50k compared to several years ago, i think it's time to retrain or pursue a different career path.


Here's the kicker: My UG GPA is a 2.6. No upward trend. Most of the blame is on me - I idiotically thought an engineering degree alone would make me immune to market fluctuations. Guess I should have paid closer attention to the trends this past decade. Myself, along with many of my unemployed/downsized/underemployed eng friends from college, are kicking ourselves in the foot right now for thinking this. To be fair, however, when taking ochem during UG it's not as if that was a higher priority for me than the 4 other weed out engineering classes i was probably taking concurrently. A Chem E curriculum is notorious for its grading difficulty.



What are my options realistically with this GPA? I know most MD schools in America are out of the question. How likely will DO, Podiatry, Optometry, or foreign medical schools grant me admissions? And by foreign medical schools, I mean accredited institutions which have a high rate of passing American board exams? I'm not limiting this to just the Carribean...Australia, Eastern Europe, India, etc. Anywhere I can get by just knowing english


Also, how do you see recent changes within the healthcare system affecting employment and salary prospects for general practitioners?

Well the last first. Medicine (or other health care fields) it reasons straightforwardly is not linked to industries that can up and leave. People live here. People are sick. People need doctors, or podiatrists, or nurses, etc.

The second thing medicine does is bottleneck the number of professionals that get licensed. Specialty demand fluctuates wildly. But there's plenty of work there in general. An entire generation of baby boomer physicians are in the process of retiring.

So job prospects are good. As good as it gets these days in my opinion. In any line of work.

Now. Chemical Engineering is way harder work than what most premeds do. Or at least most premeds have the cunning to pick something that makes their hard work translate into A's. I really wanted to major in Spanish my 2nd go round. But I couldn't convince myself that my effort would equal A's. I'll never speak good spanish because of it. But I got into medical school.

Cunning is key.

Your 2.5 with 120 plus credits. Could probably be brought to the lower end of the DO pool with a good MCAT in 3 or so years of biology gpa repair work. MD schools are not impossible. But just be aware of the omnipresent bell curve and where you are within in. If you're to the left, where it flattens out. You have to come with something extra. There's just too many overqualified people. That even if somebody likes what you have to say, they would have to argue for your spot that would be denied to people with higher grades. Give that person ammunition to do that. Spreadsheets are your friend. MSAR is your friend. SDN is your acquantaince. A work colleague you should socialize with as minimally as possible. More as your new on the job. But by christmas office parties this year. A mere forced grin. And a slight hoist of your drink.

Or. You could jump to the Carib. But this is getting riskier in the current economic climate. DO schools are rapidly ramping up enrollment and MD schools a little bit too. But residency spots have remained static.

You've got a lot of research and thinking to do.

Read through SDN and ask questions as you do so. But you could start moving towards a career shift during that time. Make sure to investigate all the health care professions.

good luck.

 

[SB720]

I am somewhat perplexed by the advice that you are being given because I was in a similar position and everyone was telling me that I could get into an MD program.

I almost finished my 1st BA with a 2.5, dropped out my final semester and returned a few years later to finish it and another BA in Chemistry. I will have 203 credits at the end of this summer session due to the joint majors, my GPA should be at 3.04. It's taking 75 credits at 4.0 to bring my GPA to 3.0 level. This is something you should consider doing. Did you already take the premed courses? Perhaps you could take some advanced biology and physics courses to get you back into the science groove. I was lucky - though I studied a ton - to get a 40 on the MCAT. For people with low MCATs, this is especially important. I advise raising your undergrad GPA and kicking ass on the MCAT. Good luck!

 

[Nasrudin]

I am somewhat perplexed by the advice that you are being given because I was in a similar position and everyone was telling me that I could get into an MD program.

I almost finished my 1st BA with a 2.5, dropped out my final semester and returned a few years later to finish it and another BA in Chemistry. I will have 203 credits at the end of this summer session due to the joint majors, my GPA should be at 3.04. It's taking 75 credits at 4.0 to bring my GPA to 3.0 level. This is something you should consider doing. Did you already take the premed courses? Perhaps you could take some advanced biology and physics courses to get you back into the science groove. I was lucky - though I studied a ton - to get a 40 on the MCAT. For people with low MCATs, this is especially important. I advise raising your undergrad GPA and kicking ass on the MCAT. Good luck!

Well for sure. You've busted your butt to give yourself the best chance academically. But a 40. That's not something to give advice on for someone else. In my opinion. You've either got that kind of mental get up or you don't. Some people could join an MCAT monastic cult for years and not do that.

Still. Look at the MSAR data. Even with your 40. you'll need a butt-spankingly early application with a good essay and all that. And even then. It's anybody's guess.

That's why you don't tell the new guy in the room that..."..sure bro, uit's all you!..." Because that's just not an accurate depiction. That doesn't mean we hve to stomp on somebody's hopes. But we have to acknwoledge the problem of too many very qualified kids and not so many spots.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Well... this is good advice for a select few. The OP definitely needs to get the GPA above the 3.0 mark (to have a decent shot at an American M.D. or D.O. program). This is done fastest via grade replacement and the D.O. route (I don't know too many people that would be willing to take 75 credits more and are able to get As (4.0) in all of them).

Also, with a 40+ MCAT and a 3.0+ GPA the OP has a shot an M.D. program. However, telling someone to go take the MCAT and score above a 40 is not particularly good advice (even for some of us with relatively good GPAs, a 40 is pretty hard to score).

That said, I agree that your advice is an acceptable path to take, though I'd argue that it is the path less traveled.

I am somewhat perplexed by the advice that you are being given because I was in a similar position and everyone was telling me that I could get into an MD program.

I almost finished my 1st BA with a 2.5, dropped out my final semester and returned a few years later to finish it and another BA in Chemistry. I will have 203 credits at the end of this summer session due to the joint majors, my GPA should be at 3.04. It's taking 75 credits at 4.0 to bring my GPA to 3.0 level. This is something you should consider doing. Did you already take the premed courses? Perhaps you could take some advanced biology and physics courses to get you back into the science groove. I was lucky - though I studied a ton - to get a 40 on the MCAT. For people with low MCATs, this is especially important. I advise raising your undergrad GPA and kicking ass on the MCAT. Good luck!

 

[docelh]

Entering medicine just for the nuts 'n' bolts of having a stable job is a really poor reason to enter it. The continual hoop-jumping one must endure cannot be sustained on the mere pragmatics of keeping a job. They would sniff it out of you during the application process.

While engineering fluctuates, the demand for it will still be there. Just means you have to tolerate some years being out of work or hustling harder. This cycle is a lot worse than others, and so things seems a lot worse LT than they probably really are.

After the Internet bust, untold numbers of computer engineers lost their jobs. Those who persevered to survive it continued their livelihoods.

Bottom-line: I think your motivation and qualifications for entering medicine are poor.

 

[spinecho303]

I disagree, to an extent. Yes, you should be in medicine for the right reasons, and there are tons of hoops to jump through, and unless you are in it for the long haul, you shouldn't be wasting your time, but to suggest like we are all like mother teresa over here doing it for no gain of our own (ie, steady pay-check, & job security) is just nonsense.

Entering medicine just for the nuts 'n' bolts of having a stable job is a really poor reason to enter it.

Bottom-line: I think your motivation and qualifications for entering medicine are poor.

 

[docelh]

I disagree, to an extent. Yes, you should be in medicine for the right reasons, and there are tons of hoops to jump through, and unless you in it for the long haul, you shouldn't be wasting your time, but to suggest like we are all like mother teresa over here doing it for not gain of our own (ie, steady pay-check, & job security) is just nonsense.

Steady paycheck and job security in medicine is a myth. Some doctors are compensated as independent contractors. Others earn based entirely on what they can bring in.

You say, sure, that's okay because people will always need health care? But what if they can't pay? The changes that are coming to the system will produce results no can predict. To count on a steady paycheck and job security amidst that uncertainty is foolish.

 

[spinecho303]

"You say, sure, that's okay because people will always need health care? " Lol, when did I say this?

You're attacking a straw man over here.

Steady paycheck and job security in medicine is a myth. Some doctors are compensated as independent contractors. Others earn based entirely on what they can bring in.

You say, sure, that's okay because people will always need health care? But what if they can't pay? The changes that are coming to the system will produce results no can predict. To count on a steady paycheck and job security amidst that uncertainty is foolish.

 

[spinecho303]

I don't disagree with your premise that the changes coming into the system are unpredictable, but my analysis was based off my experience coming from a family of physicians and working a lot with health-care companies. By-and-large, healthcare is less volatile and much more stable compared to other industries.

Systematic risk is present in almost any industry, id be willing to bet that healthcare directly may benefit from the recent government intervention. Medicare may cap insurance reimbursement and reduce physician pay, but they also are
guaranteeing 30 million people on payment. If anything, the low-income patient physicians will directly benefit from this, while hurting higher earning specialists.

I don't support the new legislation, but I wouldn't hide behind it as a reason not to enter the profession.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Just because I'm on the flip-side of support here I figured I'd contribute. I fully support the legislation and think it is a great reason to enter medicine (if you already wanted to; not solely because of it).

I'll admit, I have zero final motives to enter medicine (I currently am very well compensated in another field (100k+)). However, I don't feel like my work benefits any one (well, other than myself).

I think every one deserves access to medicine. I think the legislation is great and I think it's probably the best time in history to enter medicine if your motive is to help others.

Overall though, no matter which side of the fence you are on, I agree with the poster below, it's not a good reason to enter or not enter the profession.

I don't support the new legislation, but I wouldn't hide behind it as a reason not to enter the profession.

 

[spinecho303]

+1, same reason

however, i don't feel like my work benefits any one (well, other than myself).

My legislation comment too, I support the idea, its more of just splitting hairs in how it shakes down, at least for me. But that debate is for another thread.

 

[TrimtheChute]

OP, the great thing about a chemical engr degree is that it is quite versatile. I started in manufacturing and ended up healthcare.

I do think that you really need to spend some time in healthcare to make sure this is what you want to do. One suggestion might be to get a job in a hospital or IDN in the quality department. You could use your degree/education to do process improvement projects in various care areas of the hospital. This would give you exposure to the clinical environment and enable you to help improve quality (cost, patient safety, etc.). The pay would be lower, but the experience would really help you stand out on your applications should you decide to pursue medicine. In addition you could get some good LORs and shadowing opportunities. Just my $.02.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I think I'm there with you. I don't agree with every word in the 2000 page bill (and yes, I skimmed it; tried to read it but it's actually more boring than most MCAT verbal passages (don't know how they managed that)).

Do I think the whole thing could be done a lot better? Yes. Do I agree with the premise? Yes. It's not ideal, but it's in the right direction. I agree this is best for another thread.

Now back to the OP.

My legislation comment too, I support the idea, its more of just splitting hairs in how it shakes down, at least for me. But that debate is for another thread.

 

[ChE04]

Hello,


I graduated with a degree in Chemical Engineering back in '08. Worked for 1.5 years, laid off this january, job search has been absolutely brutal. I've done an analysis of job prospects within the industries I'm qualified for - realistically, with the number of jobs shed in '08 and '09 in those industries, we're looking at 5 or more years of extremely strong job growth until we get back to '07 levels. That's being optimistic. Realistically, it's closer to 10. Given how competitive it's become even for mediocre positions paying 40-50k compared to several years ago, i think it's time to retrain or pursue a different career path.


Here's the kicker: My UG GPA is a 2.6. No upward trend. Most of the blame is on me - I idiotically thought an engineering degree alone would make me immune to market fluctuations. Guess I should have paid closer attention to the trends this past decade. Myself, along with many of my unemployed/downsized/underemployed eng friends from college, are kicking ourselves in the foot right now for thinking this. To be fair, however, when taking ochem during UG it's not as if that was a higher priority for me than the 4 other weed out engineering classes i was probably taking concurrently. A Chem E curriculum is notorious for its grading difficulty.



What are my options realistically with this GPA? I know most MD schools in America are out of the question. How likely will DO, Podiatry, Optometry, or foreign medical schools grant me admissions? And by foreign medical schools, I mean accredited institutions which have a high rate of passing American board exams? I'm not limiting this to just the Carribean...Australia, Eastern Europe, India, etc. Anywhere I can get by just knowing english


Also, how do you see recent changes within the healthcare system affecting employment and salary prospects for general practitioners?

Having a chemical engineering degree myself and just having completed my first post-bacc semester, I can tell you it is much much easier than ChE. It's different in that it's a lot less conceptual; everything is basically spelled out for you in the books, and there are very few concepts that you need to "grasp" like in ChE (but still very interesting!).

I also agree with docelh when he says you need to rethink your reasons for picking medicine; maybe look into it a little harder. Good job stability is a fringe benefit, but a pretty poor reason to get into medicine in the first place. I thought long and hard about quitting my job (seriously considered it about 6 months) to pursue medicine before finally going for it. I know quite a few residents, and believe me, if you do not truly believe in what you are doing, the daily grind of it will hit you HARD. Hell, even if you go into it for all the right reasons it will get to you, from what I've seen... Anyway man, not trying to discourage you, just think you should think about it a little more, and realize just how long it will take you to get through it (10++ years??).

 

[ChE04]

Systematic risk is present in almost any industry, id be willing to bet that healthcare directly may benefit from the recent government intervention. Medicare may cap insurance reimbursement and reduce physician pay, but they also are
guaranteeing 30 million people on payment. If anything, the low-income patient physicians will directly benefit from this, while hurting higher earning specialists.

I find the argument that the medical community will fall apart after the current legislation interesting as well. The AMA has opposed every major health care legislation on the same grounds--doctors will go bankrupt and that the government will get between doctors and patients--since it was first proposed nationally in 1935 as part of the Social Security act. Same thing when Medicare and Medicaid were first was introduced. The end result was the medical community gained access to a completely new demographic (the old and the poor) who they would not have previously seen because they would not be able to pay, but suddenly were subsidized by the government.

That being said, the major problem with the US healthcare system is the staggering cost (per capita and as a percent of GDP) that continues to rise, none of which the 2010 Affordable Healthcare Act addresses.... Sorry, OP for going off topic.

 

[Nasrudin]

Entering medicine just for the nuts 'n' bolts of having a stable job is a really poor reason to enter it. The continual hoop-jumping one must endure cannot be sustained on the mere pragmatics of keeping a job. They would sniff it out of you during the application process.

While engineering fluctuates, the demand for it will still be there. Just means you have to tolerate some years being out of work or hustling harder. This cycle is a lot worse than others, and so things seems a lot worse LT than they probably really are.

After the Internet bust, untold numbers of computer engineers lost their jobs. Those who persevered to survive it continued their livelihoods.

Bottom-line: I think your motivation and qualifications for entering medicine are poor.

I hear what you're saying. And yet. I'm not entirely convinced. That the prophetic trumps the mundane. A person with lower expectations might just fare better.

We've frequented this spot long enough to know some folks whose dashed hopes left them bitter and sad.

This is a job in the end. A very arduous set of sacrifices. That go down better with a appetite for the best of what it has to offer. But what about the worst of it.

What sustains the sacrifices against it. Lower expectations have done some good. The copaseticness of Scandanavian culture has lead to less cultural trauma--such as we experience when the American dream turns sour.

Trimestigus(?) did it all for the nookie. And now what. Is it any different when one does it for holier causes. And then what. When it comes down to negotiating bureaucracy and filling out miles of paperwork by the hour.

Maybe the guy who takes it as a job. Would be more satisfied in the end.