81mg versus 325mg aspirin

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DrTacoElf

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When is 81mg aspirin indicated and when is full dose 325mg aspirin indicated?

I'm guessing that in acute MI its 325 but other than that i'm unsure.

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When is 81mg aspirin indicated and when is full dose 325mg aspirin indicated?

I'm guessing that in acute MI its 325 but other than that i'm unsure.

I doubt it'll be on the test, since they don't really ask dosing, but just use your brain. High doses for acute things, be careful of giving older people a crap ton of aspirin without a good reason. Too much inhibition of platelets makes 'em bleed and you'll wind up with epistaxis, surgery complications (if they have 'em), falls, car accidents, all the things older people are at greater risk for. If 81mg works, the do that. STEMI, obviously 325 asap.

On the same token, please don't hand out NSAIDs willy-nilly. I've seen one too many patients with a perforation thanks to chronic NSAID use. Educate your patients about the dangers of long term NSAID use. It takes 2 seconds to say, "Don't take this forever, or you'll eat a hole in your stomach and die."

And rx some probiotics (even if its just Activia) with your antibiotics. I just finished a course of Azithro, and it tore me up something fierce. The activia helps, even if its just a little bit. There are better pill-based versions with a better mix of native bowel flora, but Activia is way easier and yummier.

Ok, rant over. Carry on. 😀
 
I doubt it'll be on the test, since they don't really ask dosing, but just use your brain. High doses for acute things, be careful of giving older people a crap ton of aspirin without a good reason. Too much inhibition of platelets makes 'em bleed and you'll wind up with epistaxis, surgery complications (if they have 'em), falls, car accidents, all the things older people are at greater risk for. If 81mg works, the do that. STEMI, obviously 325 asap.

On the same token, please don't hand out NSAIDs willy-nilly. I've seen one too many patients with a perforation thanks to chronic NSAID use. Educate your patients about the dangers of long term NSAID use. It takes 2 seconds to say, "Don't take this forever, or you'll eat a hole in your stomach and die."

And rx some probiotics (even if its just Activia) with your antibiotics. I just finished a course of Azithro, and it tore me up something fierce. The activia helps, even if its just a little bit. There are better pill-based versions with a better mix of native bowel flora, but Activia is way easier and yummier.

Ok, rant over. Carry on. 😀
I'm not sure there's a thread of evidence in anything you've just posted.
 
I'm not sure there's a thread of evidence in anything you've just posted.

I'd dig up the studies for you, but I'm a bit busy right now, sorry...

I've stuck my finger in the hole made be the NSAIDs. Would you want your grandmother taking them long term? You know as well as I do what they do.

You also know abx affect bowel flora. Where do you think C. diff comes from? Are probiotics a perfect solution? No, but there is some evidence for them, go look it up. You know the most common reason for outpatient antibiotic noncompliance? GI upset. Probiotics help. Not a ton, but better than nothing.
 
Wasn't referring to the nsaids so much (although I bet you guys treated the patient for h pylori too), but I have serious doubts about the utility of either high-dose ASA or "probiotics". I've looked into it and I'd say it's voodoo to recommend more than a baby aspirin (aside from on initial presentation of acute MI, where I'd view it as a loading dose). I definately think the higher doses lead to increased risk of GI upset/bleed/perforation. I just don't think the higher doses lead to any incremental increase in platelet inhibition vs 81 mg/day. As for probiotics, I'd be grateful (seriously, I would) if you could provide any substantial references backing their use. From what I've seen their use is often touted as helping everything from diarrhea to bad vibes, but I haven't actually seen evidence about hard outcomes from decent studies. Maybe I just suck at reading the literature though...
 
Wasn't referring to the nsaids so much (although I bet you guys treated the patient for h pylori too), but I have serious doubts about the utility of either high-dose ASA or "probiotics". I've looked into it and I'd say it's voodoo to recommend more than a baby aspirin (aside from on initial presentation of acute MI, where I'd view it as a loading dose). I definately think the higher doses lead to increased risk of GI upset/bleed/perforation. I just don't think the higher doses lead to any incremental increase in platelet inhibition vs 81 mg/day. As for probiotics, I'd be grateful (seriously, I would) if you could provide any substantial references backing their use. From what I've seen their use is often touted as helping everything from diarrhea to bad vibes, but I haven't actually seen evidence about hard outcomes from decent studies. Maybe I just suck at reading the literature though...

That was my point about ASA. Low dose = better. Again, I saw way too many patients on surgery who were old and had some bleeding issues due to their too high doses of ASA. Nothing major, but it made things go less smoothly, and made the surgeries harder. You ask them to stop taking it, but they never listen 🙄

Good, we agree on the NSAIDs/ASA perf thing.

Re: Probiotics. I'm willing to admit the evidence isn't 100% yet, but there is some, and much more than this: VERY quickly, here's a BMJ meta-analysis showing promise:

http://www.bmj.com/content/324/7350/1361.abstract

Feel free to dig through Google Scholar yourself if you want more. There's evidence for and against, but I think the evidence for

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?c...tics&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=ws

I'm studying for boards and can't be bothered now...but almost every doc I worked with this year prescribed probiotics with the antibiotics because it works. The patients complain less of GI upset while on their abx course. Does it work, is it placebo? Who knows? Regardless, it improves their pain/sx (and my own).

I certainly don't think they have the miracle benefits that have been claimed, but in the case of mild alterations in gut flora due to antibiotics, I think that it makes sense that they might help. Go try it. Oral Augmentin (or azithro, or whatever) is not a benign drug, although obviously some people tolerate it better than others.

Ok, I grabbed you the relevant UpToDate quote as well, since it was quick and easy:

Several systematic reviews have been conducted [71-76], most of which (although using different sets of primary studies) reached similar conclusions. One of the most recent meta-analyses (34 placebo-controlled trials) concluded that [71]:

Probiotics were associated with a significant 52 percent reduction in antibiotic-associated diarrhea (95% CI 35 to 65 percent).
Probiotics were associated with an 8 percent reduction in traveler's diarrhea (95% CI -6 to 21 percent).
Probiotics were associated with a 57 percent reduction in risk of acute diarrhea of various causes in children (95% CI 37 to 51 percent) and a 26 percent reduction in adults (95% CI 7 to 49 percent).
The protective effects did not vary significantly among the probiotics strains Saccharomyces boulardii, Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus bulgaricus and other strains used alone or in combination of two or more strains.
A later meta-analysis that focused on studies of children found a protective effect of probiotics on antibiotic-associated diarrhea on per-protocol analysis, but results were not significant on intention-to-treat analysis [75].

In a subsequent randomized trial, 255 patients were assigned to one of three regimens using Lactobacillus acidophilus and L. casei or placebo: (A) two probiotic capsules daily, (B) one probiotic and one placebo capsule daily, or (C) two placebo capsules daily [77]. Patients receiving probiotic capsules had lower rates of antibiotic-associated diarrhea than patients receiving placebo (16 percent in group A, 28 percent in group B, and 44 percent in group C). In addition, the mean duration of antibiotic-associated diarrhea was shorter in those receiving probiotics (3 days for group A, 4 days for group B, and 6 days for group C).

In summary, systematic reviews suggest that probiotics (including various bacterial species and the yeast S. boulardii) are effective in reducing the incidence of diarrhea in patients who are taking antibiotics. However, discordant data have been published and there is little detailed information regarding the optimal dose or timing of supplementation or the effects on subgroups of patients. A more recent, larger randomized trial suggests that there is a role for probiotics for the prevention of antibiotic-associated diarrhea. It also suggests that probiotics may shorten the period of diarrhea in patients who have already developed it.
 
I doubt it'll be on the test, since they don't really ask dosing, but just use your brain.

They wont ask you to differentiate between 81 and 325. They'll just say

a) ASA
b) NSAIDS
c) Clopidogrel
d) Abciximab
e) Warfarin
f) Heparin

ASA first. Clopidogrel if ASA fails. NSAIDs for not vascular stuff. Abciximab is almost never the answer. Warfarin for clots. Heparin to bridge.

That's the knowledge you need, not 81 to 325.

I've kept it short because we are in the Step 2 section, I presume you want info for the test, not life.
 
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