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9+ new schools? When will this stop?
Started by HopeforDMD
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Man you guys are sooo right. I dont even remember why I went in to dentistry anymore. It looks like the profession has been crapped on just like every other profession. I might as well not even graduate. Maybe I shouldnt even be raising the two boys I have and just give them up for adoption, because I cant even fathom how I will be able to raise them. I mean, of all the professions to join, I seems as though I cant have picked a worse one.
/endSarcasticRant
Nobody ever said success will just happen. In fact, quite the contrary. If you will read above I clearly said that not everyone can hack it. You're logic above seems to hinge on a notion that once you do your homework on a location, find a ideal doctor/patient ratio, that you will be set for life and just have money to roll in. If I have misinterpreted your logic, I apologize in advance. However, it just seems like more of the entitlement blabber that predents, current students, and recent grads verbally vomit out without first thinking about the ridiculousness of their delusions of grandeur.
To be successful, at any profession, and at life for that matter, demands a constant and consistent pledge to hard work and sacrifice. If an individual is unable or unwilling to devote what it takes, imho they cant legitimately complain about the bed they must now lay down in.
If you are a predent: you may or may not make a ton of money in dentistry. nothing is guaranteed and if you are solely picking a profession on how much money you will make, you might have better odds elsewhere. However, if you want a profession that allows you to interact with people, allows you to take pride in your work, allows you to have the hours you want, allows you to have true separation of work/home, and allows you to choose how much or how little you want to do, then dentistry might be one of several professions to choose from. Shadowing is not just for the admissions committee, it is for YOU to understand what your are getting into. You need to shadow the admin part of the dentist as well as the skill portion. If you claim 100+ hours of shadowing, and are shocked at all the extra BS a dentist has to do when he/she steps away from the chair, only you are to blame.
If you are a current student: hang in there. While it may seem silly to say, treat dental school as a place to learn. Too many of those around me in school look to have the next step checked off and completely miss the point of the step. Act as if you will have to start on your own with no help tomorrow. Remember you are paying to gain the knowledge that lies in your professors brains (some of you are paying more than others for the same info, but dont think you will have any easier of a time prying that information out).
If you are a current grad AND a traditional student: welcome to the real world. nothing will be handed to you anymore in exchange for, and on the basis of, your past hard work. you are starting over, so to speak, and the world around you has the head start. good luck, because dental school did not have the time to also prepare you for how to run a business.
If you are a current grad AND NOT a traditional student: none of the above comes as a shock to you. though later in your life, you are better prepared than your cohorts, and are likely not wasting your time clicking on such ludicrous thread topics.
/endSarcasticRant
Nobody ever said success will just happen. In fact, quite the contrary. If you will read above I clearly said that not everyone can hack it. You're logic above seems to hinge on a notion that once you do your homework on a location, find a ideal doctor/patient ratio, that you will be set for life and just have money to roll in. If I have misinterpreted your logic, I apologize in advance. However, it just seems like more of the entitlement blabber that predents, current students, and recent grads verbally vomit out without first thinking about the ridiculousness of their delusions of grandeur.
To be successful, at any profession, and at life for that matter, demands a constant and consistent pledge to hard work and sacrifice. If an individual is unable or unwilling to devote what it takes, imho they cant legitimately complain about the bed they must now lay down in.
If you are a predent: you may or may not make a ton of money in dentistry. nothing is guaranteed and if you are solely picking a profession on how much money you will make, you might have better odds elsewhere. However, if you want a profession that allows you to interact with people, allows you to take pride in your work, allows you to have the hours you want, allows you to have true separation of work/home, and allows you to choose how much or how little you want to do, then dentistry might be one of several professions to choose from. Shadowing is not just for the admissions committee, it is for YOU to understand what your are getting into. You need to shadow the admin part of the dentist as well as the skill portion. If you claim 100+ hours of shadowing, and are shocked at all the extra BS a dentist has to do when he/she steps away from the chair, only you are to blame.
If you are a current student: hang in there. While it may seem silly to say, treat dental school as a place to learn. Too many of those around me in school look to have the next step checked off and completely miss the point of the step. Act as if you will have to start on your own with no help tomorrow. Remember you are paying to gain the knowledge that lies in your professors brains (some of you are paying more than others for the same info, but dont think you will have any easier of a time prying that information out).
If you are a current grad AND a traditional student: welcome to the real world. nothing will be handed to you anymore in exchange for, and on the basis of, your past hard work. you are starting over, so to speak, and the world around you has the head start. good luck, because dental school did not have the time to also prepare you for how to run a business.
If you are a current grad AND NOT a traditional student: none of the above comes as a shock to you. though later in your life, you are better prepared than your cohorts, and are likely not wasting your time clicking on such ludicrous thread topics.
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What do you need to get into Roseman? A pulse? These new schools- Roseman and Lecom- are in no way equal to the old schools- Georgetown and Northwestern in terms of academics, admissions criteria, and overall quality of students. They are like the Devry University of dental schools. It's cheapening our profession and making it more difficult to deal with oversaturation especially in the face of public recognition.
I don't know about specific schools; but, in general the notion of profit in higher education needs to be eliminated. Also, lets get rid of all the ridiculously indulgent athletic departments too.
Agreed, and who the hell cares about college football and basketball? How do they increase students' learning potentials? Since when did college become a place to be entertained? Enough of these undergrad/postgrad programs that spend big bucks (from American taxpayers) to develop nice and fancy gardens, student areas, stadiums, and other stupid crap. These schools need to get back to the basics, that is, to teach and educate students to succeed in their careers. Now, college education is a joke and a manifestation of American culture.
A quick word on the sports teams. More often than not, a sports team is one of the school's largest money makers. The bigger the stadium (assuming you can fill it) the more tickets you can sell, and the more money you can make for the school. The more money you put into facilities, the more the better players want to go there, and the better your team, the more important the games. The more important the games, the more people want to go and watch the games and the bigger your stadium gets... All said and done, it is probable that having a solid sports team might actually reduce your tuition.
As far as the new schools opening up, I'm not sure how I feel about that yet. If the graduates are able to pass the boards, and the school is able to gain accreditation, then I do not see a "cheapening" of the profession. However, they could possibly lead to a glut of new dentists, but I'm not to what degree that will happen. Hell, it could even be that with more schools there might be a tuition war, so these schools could cause other schools to try and lower their tuition. This is all speculation, of which I have no idea where it will go, so most of it is pointless. All said and done, why all the doomsday stuff when we really have no idea what is going to happen of it? Just enjoy today and chill out!
I should probably get back to reviewing my notes for my HB1 exam tomorrow haha
As far as the new schools opening up, I'm not sure how I feel about that yet. If the graduates are able to pass the boards, and the school is able to gain accreditation, then I do not see a "cheapening" of the profession. However, they could possibly lead to a glut of new dentists, but I'm not to what degree that will happen. Hell, it could even be that with more schools there might be a tuition war, so these schools could cause other schools to try and lower their tuition. This is all speculation, of which I have no idea where it will go, so most of it is pointless. All said and done, why all the doomsday stuff when we really have no idea what is going to happen of it? Just enjoy today and chill out!
I should probably get back to reviewing my notes for my HB1 exam tomorrow haha
I think this will only happen when schools like NYU,USC, Midwestern (notably expensive schools) start actually not filling their class or lose their "smart" acceptances and people start failing cause they are at the bottom of the applicant pool. Otherwise if the class is filled at whatever cost you charge it doesn't really matter.
like it or not, football equals name recognition, which equals popularity, which equals more selective students, which equals more selective professors, which equals more research dollars, which equals more name recognition, which equals more research dollars, which equals.....
big research dollars goes to big schools with big name recognition and thoughtful planning that put them in the position to have the name recognition.
for instance one of my alma maters (as well as others), just received a huge deal to become a major vaccine research hub (source). They were able to secure it because of name recognition that secured the individuals that put the infrastructure in place to even be able to bid on the contract. did football have anything to do with it directly? probably not. but you cant deny the name recognition that some of the bigger universities have due to their sports programs. four out of the the six schools listed in that article have rather large sports programs.
like it or hate it, it is just part of it.
big research dollars goes to big schools with big name recognition and thoughtful planning that put them in the position to have the name recognition.
for instance one of my alma maters (as well as others), just received a huge deal to become a major vaccine research hub (source). They were able to secure it because of name recognition that secured the individuals that put the infrastructure in place to even be able to bid on the contract. did football have anything to do with it directly? probably not. but you cant deny the name recognition that some of the bigger universities have due to their sports programs. four out of the the six schools listed in that article have rather large sports programs.
like it or hate it, it is just part of it.
^^^^ This.
Worse comes to worse, just go to dental school in India, China, etc. It is much cheaper. Just flash a little bit of dollars in their face, and they'll take you. I heard California has started accrediting international dental schools, so no IDP or anything is necessary. And if we look at California, it tends to be the blueprint for the rest of the nation. Whatever crazy things California does, the rest of the states follow suit like a bunch of barking dogs. That is why this country is doomed for failure.👍
Totally agree. That's why I said this it totally speculation that probably means nothing lol. I guess I was just trying to say that there is not a whole lot of value in the speculation... that's all 🙂
we spend a lot of time talking about the big private schools, how expensive and unaffordable they're becoming, but this only applies to those taking out loans. i go to a private dental school and i think it would surprise many of you as to the number of people that don't take out loans or have very few of them.
isn't the average dental school graduate loan still under 200k? its probably from people going to state schools, maxing out loans. schools like usc, tufts, and nyu are like 450k after 4 years and a lot of the people that go to these schools have cash and high tuition and interest rates don't apply to them.
isn't the average dental school graduate loan still under 200k? its probably from people going to state schools, maxing out loans. schools like usc, tufts, and nyu are like 450k after 4 years and a lot of the people that go to these schools have cash and high tuition and interest rates don't apply to them.
Yeah I know; but one can dream . . . can't they?
Some of these third world countries like India are able to produce darn good schools at low prices. When our country stops its obsession with sports, then we will realize how useless sports programs are and how they contribute very little to society's well being, other than a little bit of entertainment, which can already be seen courtesy of the pro leagues.
You know, there is more to life then just money and dental school.
what is the purpose of a higher education institution? sports or education?
maybe it's just me, but i much prefer to be educated at a school with big name professors than big name sports coaches.
luckily it isnt up to you, and free market still exists.
Yeah, we are so lucky that schools have turned to building up sports teams, creating huge gyms, and building five star dorms rather than focusing on education. Schools have started to cater towards moving up in the US News ranking and passing on the costs on to students for building facilities that are not necessary.
The free market doesn't work in every care, just look at Devry. I think about 30% or so of their students can't repay loans.
Also, the free market should exist, so that people like you can get off the government teat and pay for your own schooling in Texas, then property taxes can be a lot lower for the rest of us.
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This works for most large universities, such at University of Texas, USC, etc.. However, wannabe smaller schools invest a lot into their school's team - stadium, etc., which loses money. Guess who picks up the tab?
free market is the reason why the dental school costs 400k to attend. It sure helps to go to a state school where tuition is subsidized by tax payers doesn't it?
Here in Brazil Dental Class are becoming in chaos...
The normal graduate start to 8 am and finish 16:30 4 years to become a dental general surgeon, but in the last 4 years in São Paulo a lot of school reduce the clinic practice time and theoric class to 8 am to 11:30 am 4 years, and the price dropped drastically.
In my opinion it isn´t good for dentistry in Brazil ! There are more dentist here than barbershop.
The normal graduate start to 8 am and finish 16:30 4 years to become a dental general surgeon, but in the last 4 years in São Paulo a lot of school reduce the clinic practice time and theoric class to 8 am to 11:30 am 4 years, and the price dropped drastically.
In my opinion it isn´t good for dentistry in Brazil ! There are more dentist here than barbershop.
You can claim the sports teams are not necessary for landing large grants and major research. Or you can claim that smaller schools without any public recognition offer better academics and education. But claiming both seems at odds.
The point is, that little wannabe smaller school is hungry for some kind of recognition, any recognition. They realize they can focus on academics until they are blue in the face, but it wont land them research dollars, quality faculty, or students. They also realize that the way to do that is to attract the public as a whole, get the students, get the faculty, and then finally the research dollars.
I think you might misunderstand what a free market is all about. Not all goods and services of equal price are of equal value. The consumer is ultimately responsible for their purchase.
Finally we can agree on something. The reason Texas has subsidized its schools, as explained to me, is that Texas wanted to 'grow' its own dentists. Which is also why the Texas schools are required to take 90% in-state applicants (after all, why would Texas residents want to fund education for out-of-staters). I think this only really works if legislation is also going to restrict who gets a license to practice in Texas to 90% Texas residents. Since they do not do this (and never will for a multitude of reasons), I agree whole heartedly that the schools be unsubsidized and that the 90% rule is removed.
And if you will check some of my older posts, this is not a new stance of mine. I fully pledge to try my hardest to return the favor that has been bestowed upon me via TMOMs, CCA clinics, community clinics, etc.
You're partly right about 400k dental degrees, but for reasons I dont think you understand. And as far as my state school tuition: it is nice, but see above.
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http://www.usnews.com/education/worlds-best-universities-rankings/top-400-universities-in-the-world
how many of those have sports events that are televised nationally? maybe football games for Stanford, Michigan, Berkeley... and for sure they are not known for their excellence in ball games, but their academia.
the idea that school's sports team performance gets the name recognition to attract grants and funding is interesting... but for sure, their students academic performance, or rather, their ranking sure does not correlate with their football ranking.
http://espn.go.com/college-football/rankings
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/spp+50
only 3 out of top 25 appear on both ranking... is there actually a correlation? does school actually need to be good at sports, or spend lots of money on sports to be recognized?
i know you texans are big into football... but for the rest of the world, people recognize schools based on their academic performance, not their football ranking.
how many of those have sports events that are televised nationally? maybe football games for Stanford, Michigan, Berkeley... and for sure they are not known for their excellence in ball games, but their academia.
the idea that school's sports team performance gets the name recognition to attract grants and funding is interesting... but for sure, their students academic performance, or rather, their ranking sure does not correlate with their football ranking.
http://espn.go.com/college-football/rankings
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/spp+50
only 3 out of top 25 appear on both ranking... is there actually a correlation? does school actually need to be good at sports, or spend lots of money on sports to be recognized?
i know you texans are big into football... but for the rest of the world, people recognize schools based on their academic performance, not their football ranking.
People in academia recognize schools for their quality of research and academics. The average American will recognize Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT but most people in California don't know about Brown, Cornell, Columbia, or Penn. They do however know about some schools who have achieved recognition for sports. Just saying. And yes I agree with you that sports shouldn't be funded by student fees and tuition but most sports don't have much trouble attracting donations from wealthy alumni or funding themselves if the program is popular enough like football or basketball.
Most of the schools that have established themselves as excellence in academia accomplished that goal long before the modern commercialization of football.
I am not saying there is a lasting direct correlation between good sports and research dollars, as few things in social studies are. What I am saying is that the easiest path for emerging, and even established schools, for attracting more students is via sports. I am not saying it is right, correct, or anything like that, but rather just drawing your attention to the situation. If a school doesnt have students who want to attend, it is going to be hard for that emerging school to be selective in their students. And if they cant be selective in the students, the school is going to have a hard time acquiring top notch faculty and researchers, and on down the line like I feel I have discussed ad nauseum.
Texans are big into football, and we do recognize schools based on their academic performance, and I would argue more importantly, the school's ROI. We also know good business practices when we see them.
http://tamunews.tamu.edu/2010/07/05/texas-am-ranks-top-in-texas-publics-for-roi/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704554104575435563989873060.html
I am not saying there is a lasting direct correlation between good sports and research dollars, as few things in social studies are. What I am saying is that the easiest path for emerging, and even established schools, for attracting more students is via sports. I am not saying it is right, correct, or anything like that, but rather just drawing your attention to the situation. If a school doesnt have students who want to attend, it is going to be hard for that emerging school to be selective in their students. And if they cant be selective in the students, the school is going to have a hard time acquiring top notch faculty and researchers, and on down the line like I feel I have discussed ad nauseum.
Texans are big into football, and we do recognize schools based on their academic performance, and I would argue more importantly, the school's ROI. We also know good business practices when we see them.
http://tamunews.tamu.edu/2010/07/05/texas-am-ranks-top-in-texas-publics-for-roi/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704554104575435563989873060.html
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Your view is skewed because you are from Texas and likely a sports fan. New York is the 3rd most populated state in the US, right behind Texas. We have a network of SUNY and State schools here yet we do not have a single recognizable sports team from any of our state schools even comparable to Texas. Even when you take into account our private schools, no one has a football team comparable to anything coming out of Texas schools though I think some of the private schools have decent basketball teams. When I interviewed at Florida for ortho, I didn't understand what the heck the big deal was about that place. To me it was a big state school in the middle of nowhere. I'm not alone in this. Nearly all of my friends and colleagues educated in the Northeast could care less about college sports. It's seriously not a big deal up here and I doubt we lose a ton of students to schools with bigger and better sports teams. I agree with Timpson that those in academia don't care and research dollars have very little to do with a school's sports reputation.
Your view is skewed because you are from New York and likely not a sports fan. Texas is the 2nd most populated state in the US, right in front of New York. We have a network of State schools here, and we have many recognizable sports teams, with even the 'small' state schools bigger than anything in New York. Even when you take into account our private schools, no one has a football team comparable to anything coming out of New York schools though I think some of the private schools have pretty crappy teams. I don't understand how schools expect to raise more from alumni on academics than national sports teams. To me they are just state schools with little to bring alum together on an emotional level. I'm not alone in this. Nearly all of my friends and colleagues not educated in the Northeast understand the non-acedemia value and incredible revenue stream in having a common cause to rally former students. It's seriously a big deal down here and I doubt we lose a ton of students to schools with supposedly better academics. I agree with Timpson that those faculty and students in academia don't care, AS LONG AS research dollars keep showing up due to name recognition from a school's sports reputation.
I'm not saying the northeast's way is wrong. I'm not saying that backing sports to indirectly boost research dollars is the only way. What I am saying is that what works for you is fine, but dont tell others how they should run their businesses and demand they follow your path.
After all, if Texas is so big on football, would it make good business sense to run your business as an anti-sports institution? and likewise would it make good business sense to sink 30% of a NY school's budget in a blossoming sports program?
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I didn't read all the arguments about the sports in educational institutions that operate as a business. Large and heavily-invested sports teams wouldn't exist if the school weren't able to profit from them. A team that is seriously costing the school millions of dollars would never pass the board of regents. Sports teams is also conducive to producing cultural capital, which is hard to attach a hard dollar value to.
Not one of you provided evidence to a causation relationship of sports-related name recognition resulting in basic-science research or unspecific state grants. It's all speculation.
Not one of you provided evidence to a causation relationship of sports-related name recognition resulting in basic-science research or unspecific state grants. It's all speculation.
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I wasnt because we didnt want to. It is because, as I stated above, the line indicating a correlation between athletics and academia is less than distinct. What works for one region might not hold for another region, and what works for one size school, might not work for another sized school.
If you want sources to back that statement up, knock yourself out.
http://www.science.smith.edu/exer_sci/ESS200/Ed/Athletic.htm
s
👎
You missed the point which was that you think a lot about sports intertwined with education because that's what it's like in Texas. I get your point that we don't have sports to unify us and that doesn't help in bringing in the alumni dollars. I don't know if the schools have a harder time collecting alumni money up here.
I am not a sports fan. I am married to a sports fan who went to a nerdy engineering school in New York but wishes he could go back in time and attend a Big 10 school. He is an anomaly around here. My younger brother went to a Big 10 school because it was a Big 10 school but he doesn't live in the northeast and prefers it that way. I went to an SEC school for my residency so I was around all that stuff for 3 years - college sports on the front page, kids wanting Orange and White elastics on their braces and all the locals discussing college teams, etc. I treat a lot of college bound kids up here. Not a single one talks about picking a school because the sports culture is so awesome. In Tennessee, my middle schoolers used to talk about college sports like they were already students in college.
👎
You missed the point which was that you think a lot about sports intertwined with education because that's what it's like in Texas. I get your point that we don't have sports to unify us and that doesn't help in bringing in the alumni dollars. I don't know if the schools have a harder time collecting alumni money up here.
I am not a sports fan. I am married to a sports fan who went to a nerdy engineering school in New York but wishes he could go back in time and attend a Big 10 school. He is an anomaly around here. My younger brother went to a Big 10 school because it was a Big 10 school but he doesn't live in the northeast and prefers it that way. I went to an SEC school for my residency so I was around all that stuff for 3 years - college sports on the front page, kids wanting Orange and White elastics on their braces and all the locals discussing college teams, etc. I treat a lot of college bound kids up here. Not a single one talks about picking a school because the sports culture is so awesome. In Tennessee, my middle schoolers used to talk about college sports like they were already students in college.
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Rest assured, I did get your point. My sarcasm, which was apparently lost in digitation, was offered to illustrate that views on what drives a successful business, and what constitutes a successful business is regional at best, and chaotic at worst.
It is interesting to note though, that a self proclaimed non-sports fan has observed what strong sports teams can do to unify a base; A base that extends beyond current students. As you can see, the revenue to a region spreads pretty wide.
Well.
I just think I'm way too positive or something.
Maybe because I came up through the foster/adoption situation I think the opportunity to compete to get into dental school, the interviewing, the potential tear-jerking and stuff is going to be not a burden or something to fear but a good time to showcase the person you will be when you're tenured & loving what you do.
Then the hard first year of dental school and the OMFG what am I going to do now that I'm out kinda stuff doesn't need to be made more than what it is.
Something every dentist just does.
And then to be kicked out on your butt after dental school with the thought that that Baylor student mentioned earlier about 'assuming no one is going to help you'
It's kind of a gamble, so many things factor into each of our individual
careers when we graduate & we wont necessarily find every jem of info & opportunity beforehand....but if you keep your senses and pace yourself &
realize many-a-dentist have started their own practices & learned to run businesses as they go... you can figure it out as you go too.
Perhaps you are wicked kick-frass awesome & deserve the ideal associateship. Might just not work out that way immediately.
The hardest thing for me is ever thinking someone will help or could help.
I really think/assume I've got this & no one will get me on my feet for me in practice.🙄
I kinda like that feeling.
I just think I'm way too positive or something.
Maybe because I came up through the foster/adoption situation I think the opportunity to compete to get into dental school, the interviewing, the potential tear-jerking and stuff is going to be not a burden or something to fear but a good time to showcase the person you will be when you're tenured & loving what you do.
Then the hard first year of dental school and the OMFG what am I going to do now that I'm out kinda stuff doesn't need to be made more than what it is.
Something every dentist just does.
And then to be kicked out on your butt after dental school with the thought that that Baylor student mentioned earlier about 'assuming no one is going to help you'
It's kind of a gamble, so many things factor into each of our individual
careers when we graduate & we wont necessarily find every jem of info & opportunity beforehand....but if you keep your senses and pace yourself &
realize many-a-dentist have started their own practices & learned to run businesses as they go... you can figure it out as you go too.
Perhaps you are wicked kick-frass awesome & deserve the ideal associateship. Might just not work out that way immediately.
The hardest thing for me is ever thinking someone will help or could help.
I really think/assume I've got this & no one will get me on my feet for me in practice.🙄
I kinda like that feeling.
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