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flga

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I am torn between medicine and peds. I love the primary care aspect of both and the lasting relationships, yada, yada, yada. The concern I have is about the money. I have a crap load of loans from undergrad and med school and would like a job in which I could possibly make about 200k per year, without having to live and breath work each day. I would love to be able to work 8am to 6pm each day if possible. Yes, I realize this constitutes hard work compared to the other specialties, but I just wanted to know if this was a realistic goal. Ive known a few pediatricians growing up, but don't remember if they were rolling in the dough; though they lived comfortably. Any insight into this would be helpful. Thanks for your time.

Jerry
 
You really want it all, don't you!

While you can find some people in both medicine and pediatrics who make 200K working 8-6, I'm guessing they are few and far between (or lucky subspecialists). Medicine pays a bit more than peds, and there are specialties that do quite well (cards, GI), but they also often have long hours, and someone has to take call. It sounds like you want PM&R (Plenty of Money and Relaxation), or Radiology, or path.

BTW, I know many pediatricians who manage to pay off loans and live comfortably on much less than 200K, and for the most part they are very happy. Do what makes you feel right-I'd choose saving a kid's life over a mercedes or 5000 square foot house any day, but not everyone is comfortable making that trade-off (and other's would gladly give up the mercedes and treat kids...if it weren't for the parents!).

But as far as medicine vs peds, I don't think the difference is huge-maybe other folks have more info, though.
 
" Do what makes you feel right-I'd choose saving a kid's life over a mercedes or 5000 square foot house any day, but not everyone is comfortable making that trade-off (and other's would gladly give up the mercedes and treat kids...if it weren't for the parents!)."


Hey, common. How often does a general pediatrician save a kids life? Once a year, maybe? Most of what they save is nasal and toilet paper from being consumed too rapidly.


200,000 in loans today will be half a million by the time you are done paying them off. Go for rads. You will really help patients and make a good living. You will develop strong relationships with referring clinicians and in some cases even patients.
 
I think you'll find it hard to make that much $ as a general pediatrician. You could consider specializing - many peds subspecialties pay more than general peds, although I'm not sure if they reach 200k that frequently. If you're set on primary-care, however, that suggestion won't help. 😉 I am inclinded to agree with the sentiments expressed above -- do what is going to make you happy. Some people would be perfectly happy in a number of specialties and money may make the final decision. For others, however, their love of a certain aspect of medicine is most important. There are also loan-repayment programs for many primary care areas and while that won't boost your salary to 200k, they could ease your debt concerns.
 
Originally posted by oldandtired
" Do what makes you feel right-I'd choose saving a kid's life over a mercedes or 5000 square foot house any day, but not everyone is comfortable making that trade-off (and other's would gladly give up the mercedes and treat kids...if it weren't for the parents!)."


Hey, common. How often does a general pediatrician save a kids life? Once a year, maybe? Most of what they save is nasal and toilet paper from being consumed too rapidly.
Click to expand...


Hmmm, lets see. How about the kids with asthma who could die of their attacks without good primary care, and medical management on the floors (we do have primary care pediatricians who still manage their own patients)? The kids with meningitis who get sent in? The girl who OD'd on tylenol and got NAC (and was managed by her PMD)? The kids we convince to wear a condom or be abstinent so they won't get HIV? How about all of the kids in our community who don't die of vaccine preventable diseases, like HIB meningitis, because of the efforts of community pediatricians to expand vaccination programs? Not to mention the specialists in Heme/Onc, nephrology, etc, who treat potentially fatal conditions all the time. I don't think most people go into peds for the colds and GI bugs, which, by the way, aren't usually treatable.

The comment was not designed to disparage any other specialty, or to be sanctimonious. All medicine saves and impacts lives at some level. My point is that I have made a conscious decision to forgo a potentially higher income specialty because I get a great deal of personal satisfaction from helping children-whether that is saving their life (at least someday, when I'm the one in charge), or just making a difficult experience a little easier. Some people want the income and choose a specialty like anesthesiology, where that is more likely-some lucky folks truly love anesthesiology, and the income is a bonus. The great thing about medicine is that it offers choices for everyone. The point I was trying to make to Flga was that if he truly loves primary care, either medicine or peds, it is worth examining whether there are financial choices he can make to make that career possible.
 
"Hmmm, lets see. How about the kids with asthma who could die of their attacks without good primary care, and medical management on the floors (we do have primary care pediatricians who still manage their own patients)? The kids with meningitis who get sent in? The girl who OD'd on tylenol and got NAC (and was managed by her PMD)? The kids we convince to wear a condom or be abstinent so they won't get HIV? How about all of the kids in our community who don't die of vaccine preventable diseases, like HIB meningitis, because of the efforts of community pediatricians to expand vaccination programs?"



Most of the kids with asthma, meningitis and overdose end up in our emergency rooms who are then treated by ER docs.

Please do not be so naive as to think that pediatricians are primarily responsible for convincing anyone to wear condoms or comply with vaccines.


My point is that a GENERAL pediatrician rarely "saves" lives. Please give this idea up. The sales boat, nice car, etc will be much more valuable in 15 years then the 1000th snotty nosed kid with a URI and really annoying parents.


You aint gonna save anylives in private practice suburbia (where the majority of peds guys practice) even though all the med students want to practice in urban ghettos (never happens).


Please save your self from being the 50 year old gray haired peds guy who screws med students over and wishes he was in rads, anesthesia, derm like his friend who retired.
 
Oldandtired:

I hope you don't act this way to your childrens' pediatrician.

And you obviously don't practice in my community.

And you don't have any concept of the amount of advocacy done by local pediatricians on behalf of vaccination programs, pregnancy prevention, etc. We have one of the highest vaccination rates in the country, because of the efforts of local pediatricians. There is research that shows that anticipatory guidance by physicians can actually improve adolescents' compliance-not that anyone expects miracles. Of course, parents can be frustrating, but don't you want someone to be there to take care of your children???

While you call yourself oldandtired, I'm guessing you are not so old, and not going into peds. I'm not young, and I am going into peds. I am certainly not "naive". I know many, many pediatricians personally, through my own research, as friends, and as a parent. On the whole, they are very happy with what they do, they love teaching and do it well, and have enough money to live a comfortable life. The community pediatricians work 4 day weeks, take call a few times a year, and ski and golf on their off days. A few even drive nice cars. Contrary to your opinion, sometimes the kids do show up in their PMD's office first, with life threatening problems (and don't tell me it doesn't, because I have seen it), and they manage it initially, before sending the kids to the ED (where, by the way, they are usually treated by pediatricians). Kids with leukemia aren't going to present to the ED with fatigue (especially in the suburban practices)-they present to their PMD, who has to figure out what's going on. This doesn't happen every day, obviously (and thank God), but there's enough to keep life at least a little interesting.

Just face it, some people don't CARE about having a fancy car or a big house, which is great for people like you, since it takes people out of the pool of residency applicants for anesthesia and rads.
 
Notstudying, I agree with you. But don't waste your time justifying yourself to oldandtired. He is obviously just a troll. A recent post by him in the Neurology forum encapsulated neuro this way:

"Depressing field mostly dealing with diagnostic and prognostic issues, very little therapy."

Hey jerk, if all you're gonna do is specialty-bash, save your breath and stay the hell out of the forum.

bpkurtz
 
I would like to thank you all for your insight. I did not think the post would cause this much commotion though. I have never really wanted a mansion or multiple mercedes', so im starting to think that I will be fine in a primary care specialty-peds or medicine. I am hoping for a 3500 square foot house and maybe a chevy tahoe to pull a boat. I guess if I want to live in that huge house and buy cars that cost more than 50k, Ill have to make sure my wife doesn't give up practicing law full time. I basically wanted to be the sole breadwinner of the family since my wife has been working full time for about 5 years now. I figured that once I was out of residency it would be my turn to work hard and let my wife do as she pleases-work part time, raise family, go out to lunch with the fellow stay at home wives, etc. If she decides to work part-time or something, then maybe we'll get to 200k, or maybe we won't. Im not all that worried about the money anymore, because growing up, I remember all of my parents' friends who were pediatricians, internists, and FP and they all pretty much lived in nice houses, drove German luxury cars, sent multiple kids to private schools and college, vacations, etc. Just remember that in the beginning it may not be possible, but after becoming established, there is no reason why any of us going into a primary care specialty cannot lead a pretty good life.
 
Many general peds make 200K plus working 4 days a week with little call.

The salaries we see in these surveys are BS because people lowball the numbers. Who the hell is going to tell the truth about their salary in a survey. Also please remember that pediatricians have many part timers and people who are not as concerned about money so don't work as hard as other docs and these people water down the avg salary.

The real answer is in talking to peds general docs that you know personally and can trust their answers. Better yet visit their homes.

You will not make as much money as other specialties in Peds, this is true, but you can definately make close to 200K if not more than this in the right clinical situation (i.e. private practice with good collections).
 
jdog-

I don't understand your argument. Why would people 'lowball the numbers', and why is it in anyone's best interest to lie about how much money they make in a survey? Makes no sense.

flga, there is no shame in being interested in monetary compensation for your future career. If you really want to know what you might expect to make, check out a job site like www.mdjobsite.com or one of countless others. Check out the jobs that are available in a part of the country in which you'd like to live. Check out the job descriptions regarding call and whatever else you are interested in. There are a lot of these sites, I'm sure you can find them.
MadC
 
P.S.--

I have never seen or heard of a general pediatritian working "four days a week with little call for 200K". Maybe there are a few in the USA, but I would be extremely surprised if there were any here in CA. I think jdog is delusional, perhaps clueless?

MadC
 
It is only people who live in California who are delusional. California is famous for being the worst compensation for doctors in the whole country. Couple that with the highest cost of living. I'd say you are missing out on the good life.
 
jdog,
can you post an online job listing for a general pediatrician "making 200K plus working 4 days a week with little call"?? Anywhere in the country? I will look forward to your reply.
MadC
 
No I can't genious because that is not a starting salary, that would be a managing partner in a practice. No matter what the final salary will be in a practice, the starting salaries will be about the same, about 100K or a little higher, or maybe 60 or 70 K if you live in the United Socialist Republic of California, where from what you see on the news, a doctor is about as respected as a starving actor in LA, and about as well compensated too.

I don't have anything else to say on this matter. I don't have to get my info from ghetto job postings on the internet, I get my info first hand from the people who do the work.
 
Something else that you should keep in mind is that medicare reimbursement is dropping for all specialties of medicine, and with that falls regular insurance reimbursement. The only specialty in medicine not effected by medicare reimbursement rates is pediatrics. Therefore, I would predict that the difference between medicine docs and pediatricians salary will decrease over the years as this adjustment takes place. These things are difficult to predict though, so I'd just reccomend doing what you enjoy doing. If you pick the specialty that you truly enjoy doing, you won't regret your decision 10 yrs down the road when the salary bottoms out. I have a few cousins who are pediatricians and they do quite well btw. One was making 70K during residency by moonlighting, and he now works in an ER (since most places don't have dual certified peds/ER people, pediatricians are probably better trained then regular ER folks at seeing the peds population in the ER).
 
jdog,

You still haven't explained your theory about doctors in practice 'lowballing the numbers' to make salary surveys underestimate true salaries. I am really interested to learn about this. In fact, based on your logic, maybe the person who told you that he/she makes 200K working 4 days/week and no call is lowballing you, and he/she in fact makes 400 or 500K!

As for California, some people are willing to sacrifice some monetary compensation to live in the best place on Earth. Some people are not. To each his own.

MadC
 
Originally posted by madcadaver


As for California, some people are willing to sacrifice some monetary compensation to live in the best place on Earth. Some people are not. To each his own.

MadC
Click to expand...


:roftlmao: 🙄
 
Originally posted by flga
I am torn between medicine and peds. I love the primary care aspect of both and the lasting relationships, yada, yada, yada. The concern I have is about the money. I have a crap load of loans from undergrad and med school and would like a job in which I could possibly make about 200k per year, without having to live and breath work each day. I would love to be able to work 8am to 6pm each day if possible. Yes, I realize this constitutes hard work compared to the other specialties, but I just wanted to know if this was a realistic goal. Ive known a few pediatricians growing up, but don't remember if they were rolling in the dough; though they lived comfortably. Any insight into this would be helpful. Thanks for your time.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Dude - have you thought of doing a med-peds residency? You have all the options open to you then. And it's only one extra year.
 
Originally posted by kristing
Dude - have you thought of doing a med-peds residency? You have all the options open to you then. And it's only one extra year.
Click to expand...

actually, look at the job market for med-peds.

it can be quite restrictive if you desire to do med-peds.
you need to join a med-peds group.

I had a lot of friends from residency that were med-peds and they had a tough time finding a job.

one did adult ID
one does straight peds


the problem is call coverage.
you can't take call for an FP, if the FP does any GYN

a pedi can't cover for you ( no med)
an internist can't cover for you (No peds)

Of course it's a nice career, as far as I am concerned, but I just wanted to add this from my experience in seeing my friends struggle to find jobs after residency.
 
There are money opportunities in every speciality. There are also opportunities to trade money for other ambitions in every specialty, such as free time, research, teaching, etc.

There are some radiologists and cardiologists who make barely over 100K at major teaching hospitals. There are also general pediatricians who make 500K in private clinics.

Whatever you do, don't make the choice over money. Whatever specialty you choose, you'll probably be doing it for a long time. The longer you're doing it, the more money opportunities arise. Sure, peds may start at 70-100K, but if you get your own clinic and do well you will start to see the bucks rolling in after a few years.

Even if you start out as a Cardiothorasic surgeon, if you hate it and only stick around a few years you won't make as much money as the happy pediatrician.

I considered Peds, mostly because the attendings that I knew seemed like the happiest people around.

Also consider that oldandtired has a certain point: You will see 1000 URIs for every 'significant' disease in general peds, and most kids will get better without any intervention. You'd better be comfortable as a nose-wiper and parent councellor, because that will be a large part of your practice.

Again, do what you love, and the money/perks/free time will come.
 
Originally posted by madcadaver
jdog-

I don't understand your argument. Why would people 'lowball the numbers', and why is it in anyone's best interest to lie about how much money they make in a survey? Makes no sense.
Click to expand...


Jdog is on to something, don't be so quick to dismiss his point...particularly with such demonstrative literary conclusions like "makes no sense."

On average pediatricians won't be found living on Park Avenue or flying in their very own private jets. However, it's important to remember one simple fact that directly relates to the average pediatrician's salary. More so than any other specialty, peds has many part-timers and practice sharers. Many female pediatricians with children share practices with others of the same ilk. A woman can work 2-3 days/week plus the occasional call, and make 60-80,000. It stands to reason that this would drag down the average salary.
 
Originally posted by rastelli
Jdog is on to something, don't be so quick to dismiss his point...particularly with such demonstrative literary conclusions like "makes no sense."

On average pediatricians won't be found living on Park Avenue or flying in their very own private jets. However, it's important to remember one simple fact that directly relates to the average pediatrician's salary. More so than any other specialty, peds has many part-timers and practice sharers. Many female pediatricians with children share practices with others of the same ilk. A woman can work 2-3 days/week plus the occasional call, and make 60-80,000. It stands to reason that this would drag down the average salary.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity how common do you really think this is?

I have no experience with this since my PCP is a group of all male pediatricians.
 
From the AAP website, http://www.aap.org/womenpeds/ , some 26% of pediatricians have worked part time at some point in their careers. It makes sense that this would drive down the average salary.
 
Originally posted by rastelli
Jdog is on to something, don't be so quick to dismiss his point...particularly with such demonstrative literary conclusions like "makes no sense."
Click to expand...

It makes no sense because if you look at the post I was referring to you will see that he says that pediatricians intentionally lie about their salaries on surveys. To me, that makes no sense. He hasn't explained it. If you can explain it for him, go for it.

I agree with the points that several people have made about part timers and women. They are obvious yet relevant.
 
Fermata,

If your PCP is a pediatrician, be it male or female, you should probably be at the NSYNC or Jessica Simpson website.

This phenomenon is common, and getting more common every year...more women are going in to medicine, and by extension, to pediatrics.

Once you're old enough to see an adult doc you'll understand how common this is.
 
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