95 year old Dementia patient tasered by Police in NSW

[Ceke2002]

Limited details at the moment, but what's your general take on this?

Allegedly she grabbed a serated edge knife from the kitchen, staff and Police were unable to disarm her, a taser shot was fired, the woman in question is now in hospital receiving end of life care.

95-Year-Old Grandmother With Dementia Tasered At Nursing Home In New South Wales - Network Ten

NSW Police are treating the tasering of a 95-year-old grandmother with dementia by one of its officers with the "utmost seriousness".

10play.com.au

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[Sushirolls]

Any person, demented, psychotic, drugged up, manic, whatever. If they are wielding a weapon they are dangerous, and I fully support law enforcement using what ever means they deem necessary in that moment. Taser, gun, baton, hands, whatever to subdue a person with a threatening weapon in hand. However, they are taught and trained. And they are trained.

We look at these incidents thru news articles and 20/20 hindsight.

Police deserve our support first and foremost. That is who I sympathize with the most.

Things to consider:
1) Family couldn't handle, that's why grandma at facility
2) the staff in facility couldn't handle. That's bad...
3) security, if any at facility, couldn't handle...
4) Police were called... that's bad. Policed tried to subdue as first intervention. Failed
5) Police escalated to taser... Sad, but good for them doing their job.
*police not hurt, that's a win.
*nurses not hurt, that's a win.
*NH patients not hurt, that's a win.

This article is a lot better to read then these headlines:
geri patient at NH stabs fellow geriatrics, surviving families grieve loss of their grandparents
G'ma stabs NH nurses, little Ahmed and Soraya ask "where's mommy?"
G'ma kills PO in NH, more evidence Social Workers are more fit for duty in crisis interventions, please hire more SW

 

[comp1]

I'm not seeing an alternative the police had. Tackle her with the knife in hand? I've definitely never had training in how to therapeutically contain someone with a weapon, which I think is why the police had to get involved.

 

[Ceke2002]

Any person, demented, psychotic, drugged up, manic, whatever. If they are wielding a weapon they are dangerous, and I fully support law enforcement using what ever means they deem necessary in that moment. Taser, gun, baton, hands, whatever to subdue a person with a threatening weapon in hand. However, they are taught and trained. And they are trained.

We look at these incidents thru news articles and 20/20 hindsight.

Police deserve our support first and foremost. That is who I sympathize with the most.

Things to consider:
1) Family couldn't handle, that's why grandma at facility
2) the staff in facility couldn't handle. That's bad...
3) security, if any at facility, couldn't handle...
4) Police were called... that's bad. Policed tried to subdue as first intervention. Failed
5) Police escalated to taser... Sad, but good for them doing their job.
*police not hurt, that's a win.
*nurses not hurt, that's a win.
*NH patients not hurt, that's a win.

This article is a lot better to read then these headlines:
geri patient at NH stabs fellow geriatrics, surviving families grieve loss of their grandparents
G'ma stabs NH nurses, little Ahmed and Soraya ask "where's mommy?"
G'ma kills PO in NH, more evidence Social Workers are more fit for duty in crisis interventions, please hire more SW

I'm not seeing an alternative the police had. Tackle her with the knife in hand? I've definitely never had training in how to therapeutically contain someone with a weapon, which I think is why the police had to get involved.

Agree with you both on this.

Of course there's now a full moral panic, with people aghast at how Police could taser a frail little old lady who needs a walker to get around. Interesting to see what further information eventually comes to light on this (apparently they've reviewed body cam footage, but that won't be released to the public), but suffice to say I don't think a lot of those who are commenting on this have ever seen a dementia patient suddenly develop paradoxical strength and go on a rampage. My 76 year old frail, demented, little old lady who needed a walker to get around, late mother had numerous instances of sudden bursts of strength and energy, resulting in potential for violence (like charging down the hallway of the NH at a full run, with a walking stick raised ready to strike someone).

I do think the NH staff should be fully trained in de-escalating situations, so that it doesn't get to the point of needing police intervention, but in this case there's not enough information to ascertain what they did or didn't do right in the situation, or if de-escalation tactics were unsuccessful.

This situation is obviously under investigation, but in the meantime the media really isn't helping with the way they're portraying the situation.

 

[Celexa]

This is not one where I'm gonna judge the people who were in the room without the absolute full details. Some of the most dangerous patients we deal with are demented patients where the mind has gone and the body hasn't gotten the message yet. It's horrible and tragic but there's literally a thousand ways things could have been in the room.

I am more inclined to be judgmental about the fact she was able to get an actual knife than anything that happened once she had it, if that part of the story is true.

 

[forchinet121]

Taser better than gunshot..

 

[Ceke2002]

This is not one where I'm gonna judge the people who were in the room without the absolute full details. Some of the most dangerous patients we deal with are demented patients where the mind has gone and the body hasn't gotten the message yet. It's horrible and tragic but there's literally a thousand ways things could have been in the room.

I am more inclined to be judgmental about the fact she was able to get an actual knife than anything that happened once she had it, if that part of the story is true.

Police have now released more details. Apparently the woman got into the kitchen in the early hours of the morning, and found a steak knife; NH staff found her standing next to her walker holding the knife, they tried to negotiate with her to relinquish the knife but weren't successful; paramedics were called and off duty police also attended (small town, no 24 hour police station); police then attempted to negotiate with her to relinquish the knife but were also unsuccessful; at some point she began to slowly advance on them holding the knife at which point one of the Officers discharged their taser; she fell and struck her head on the floor and is currently still in critical condition and not expected to survive. The Homicide squad is now involved, as well as internal investigations.

 

[WisNeuro]

Growing up in the sticks, you deal with animals a lot more dangerous than 95 year old women with dementia. Put on some welding gloves or something and just take the knife away. Could have saved a lot of paperwork.

 

[Sushirolls]

No one's job description should ever include disarm knife, or disarm arm knife with welding gloves.
Shoot with taser
Shoot with 9mm

 

[WisNeuro]

Just simple problem solving. We need to get back to the time when people weren't such snowflakes and just figured out how to get things done instead of being triggered by centenarians and hitting the easy button.

 

[whopper]

Not enough info. Things like watching a video do matter in making judgments in this area. Of course police need to defend themselves, but of course there's a set of rules.

If in fact she did attack police with a knife the police tasering her might've not been out of line. Problem here is without further proof it's a lot of conjecture. Lots of videos show police alleging they were attacked but the video doesn't back it up.

 

[TheRightMedication]

WisNeuro I get where you're coming from, but she had a deadly weapon.

There is no such thing as moving towards someone with a weapon to then try to get that weapon. You would never ever do that on purpose, unless you thought your death was worth it such as with an active shooter.

That would go against every principle of self defense that I know. I'm no expert but I am confident in this based on years of admittedly casual training. Disarming techniques are taught more to let you die fighting than because they work.

I'm glad the police were as tolerant and reasonable as they were, and I am very sorry she was mortally wounded.

 

[whopper]

There's a youtube channel, Audit The Audit, where they go over dozens of police interactions and break down what was done right and wrong by police and citizens. Plenty of he-said-she-said that didn't back up with what really happened on the video.

 

[WisNeuro]

WisNeuro I get where you're coming from, but she had a deadly weapon.

There is no such thing as moving towards someone with a weapon to then try to get that weapon. You would never ever do that on purpose, unless you thought your death was worth it such as with an active shooter.

That would go against every principle of self defense that I know. I'm no expert but I am confident in this based on years of admittedly casual training. Disarming techniques are taught more to let you die fighting than because they work.

I'm glad the police were as tolerant and reasonable as they were, and I am very sorry she was mortally wounded.

Anything can be a deadly weapon in the hands of an able bodied adult. When my infant sun grabs a pen, I don't need to punch him in the face to "disarm" him. The lethality goes down numerous pegs in this instance. I highly doubt anyone's life aside from the woman's was at risk.

 

[Ceke2002]

Growing up in the sticks, you deal with animals a lot more dangerous than 95 year old women with dementia. Put on some welding gloves or something and just take the knife away. Could have saved a lot of paperwork.

WisNeuro I get where you're coming from, but she had a deadly weapon.

There is no such thing as moving towards someone with a weapon to then try to get that weapon. You would never ever do that on purpose, unless you thought your death was worth it such as with an active shooter.

That would go against every principle of self defense that I know. I'm no expert but I am confident in this based on years of admittedly casual training. Disarming techniques are taught more to let you die fighting than because they work.

I'm glad the police were as tolerant and reasonable as they were, and I am very sorry she was mortally wounded.

Agreed that putting on some welding gloves and just taking the knife seems like a logical solution, but also agree that it's not something that would be advisable in any situation involving a weapon.

Consider if the Police Officer had done just that, and in the process of reaching for the knife the woman had struck out at him, or maybe the Police Officer manages to grab the knife, but the woman manages to overpower him (not out of the realms of possibility, even for a 95 year old) and delivers a stab wound.

Still reserving judgement on the whole situation, but I do think if it was as easy as 'just take the knife off her' we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[WisNeuro]

Agreed that putting on some welding gloves and just taking the knife seems like a logical solution, but also agree that it's not something that would be advisable in any situation involving a weapon.

Consider if the Police Officer had done just that, and in the process of reaching for the knife the woman had struck out at him, or maybe the Police Officer manages to grab the knife, but the woman manages to overpower him (not out of the realms of possibility, even for a 95 year old) and delivers a stab wound.

Still reserving judgement on the whole situation, but I do think if it was as easy as 'just take the knife off her' we wouldn't be having this discussion.

If a 95 year old woman in a nursing home can "overpower" one of your police officers, you may need to rethink your fitness requirements in that department.

 

[Ceke2002]

Anything can be a deadly weapon in the hands of an able bodied adult. When my infant sun grabs a pen, I don't need to punch him in the face to "disarm" him. The lethality goes down numerous pegs in this instance. I highly doubt anyone's life aside from the woman's was at risk.

My Mum was frail and demented at age 76, still took 2 security guards to take her to ground so they could sedate her after she started kicking off in hospital. Tried to smash through a wall with a chair, evaded medical staff, knocked an adult patient visitor to the ground, then started throwing punches, like I said 2 security guards needed to get her under control. So yeah I absolutely do think that any adult sized person is a potential risk with a weapon.

 

[WisNeuro]

My Mum was frail and demented at age 76, still took 2 security guards to take her to ground so they could sedate her after she started kicking off in hospital. Tried to smash through a wall with a chair, evaded medical staff, knocked an adult patient visitor to the ground, then started throwing punches, like I said 2 security guards needed to get her under control. So yeah I absolutely do think that any adult sized person is a potential risk with a weapon.

We'll agree to disagree. Maybe we're just made of sterner things over this way.

 

[Ceke2002]

We'll agree to disagree. Maybe we're just made of sterner things over this way.

Fair enough, but I'm assuming you've not encountered cases of paradoxical strength in your line of work?

Speaking of sterner things, would a WWII Desert Fox veteran be stern enough? My late grandfather in law worked in as a nurse in a State Psychiatric facility in Adelaide after the war. He maintained that one of the most dangerous patients there was a sweet little 88 year old with dementia, who also had a nasty habit of developing enough strength to overpower and beat the living daylights out any nurse or orderly who dropped their guard around her.

Not saying this sort of stuff happens on the regular, but I would also go ahead and make an assumption that those working in geriatrics would at least need to be aware of it.

Anyway, agree to disagree, all good. 🙂

 

[WisNeuro]

Fair enough, but I'm assuming you've not encountered cases of paradoxical strength in your line of work?

Speaking of sterner things, would a WWII Desert Fox veteran be stern enough? My late grandfather in law worked in as a nurse in a State Psychiatric facility in Adelaide after the war. He maintained that one of the most dangerous patients there was a sweet little 88 year old with dementia, who also had a nasty habit of developing enough strength to overpower and beat the living daylights out any nurse or orderly who dropped their guard around her.

Not saying this sort of stuff happens on the regular, but I would also go ahead and make an assumption that those working in geriatrics would at least need to be aware of it.

Anyway, agree to disagree, all good. 🙂

Show me the empirical lit on "paradoxical strength" in 90+ and I'll concede a portion of my argument.

 

[Celexa]

Show me the empirical lit on "paradoxical strength" in 90+ and I'll concede a portion of my argument.

I've been consulted on elderly, demented, hospitalized patients who broke a nursing aides arm. Just last week was consulted on someone in their late 80s, advanced dementia, who somehow still had the body of a robust 65-70yo and a LONG list of severe injuries inflicted on staff at multiple facilities. This incident might be an indictment on the elder care system generally but the idea that a demented patient with a knife isn't dangerous doesn't match reality.

It's not a matter of "paradoxical" strength. It's just strength.

 

[Ceke2002]

Show me the empirical lit on "paradoxical strength" in 90+ and I'll concede a portion of my argument.

I would assume that such studies would be difficult if not ethically challenged; however, I appreciate the willingness to concede some portion of an argument in the face of empirical evidence. 🙂

 

[Ceke2002]

I've been consulted on elderly, demented, hospitalized patients who broke a nursing aides arm. Just last week was consulted on someone in their late 80s, advanced dementia, who somehow still had the body of a robust 65-70yo and a LONG list of severe injuries inflicted on staff at multiple facilities. This incident might be an indictment on the elder care system generally but the idea that a demented patient with a knife isn't dangerous doesn't match reality.

It's not a matter of "paradoxical" strength. It's just strength.

Yeah I remember my Grandfather in law talking about the aforementioned 88 year old dementia patient in a State Psychiatric facility, managing to snap an orderlies' wrist after he didn't take the warnings about her seriously. 'Paradoxical Strength' is a term I heard like back in the 70s when a family member worked at one of the major hospitals, I am assuming it's not an actual medical term but don't know what else to call it.

 

[WisNeuro]

I've been consulted on elderly, demented, hospitalized patients who broke a nursing aides arm. Just last week was consulted on someone in their late 80s, advanced dementia, who somehow still had the body of a robust 65-70yo and a LONG list of severe injuries inflicted on staff at multiple facilities. This incident might be an indictment on the elder care system generally but the idea that a demented patient with a knife isn't dangerous doesn't match reality.

It's not a matter of "paradoxical" strength. It's just strength.

I would assume that such studies would be difficult if not ethically challenged; however, I appreciate the willingness to concede some portion of an argument in the face of empirical evidence. 🙂

I've broken many quarter horses and managed many other 1200 pound animals. In terms of which is more dangerous, thrashing horns/hooves of a 1200+ pound animal or a <100 lb centenarian with a dull steak knife, it's pretty clear. Man/woman up aussie police.

 

[Sushirolls]

Blunt force trauma wounds from hooves are not an apple to orange comparison to a knife laceration. Both can be deadly, but one is a weapon. One is a danger. Horses and cattle, people choose to put themselves in situations that might be dangerous. Further more there are chutes, gates, stalls, arenas, etc that are meant to aid human safety. Completely different not at all an apple to apple comparison. Would need only reflect on an EM rotation or trauma surgery rotation to know how serious knife wounds are. Or to continue the ag metaphor, how easy a knife butchers up an animal, and tissues separate easily.

*I keep forgetting @WisNeuro is one our psychology colleagues. No EM or trauma rotation available. Oops, my bad.

 

[Candidate2017]

Growing up in the sticks, you deal with animals a lot more dangerous than 95 year old women with dementia. Put on some welding gloves or something and just take the knife away. Could have saved a lot of paperwork.

A scalpel blade is tiny, about an inch long. But I have dissected and flayed open human bodies from stem to stern with it, using the same amount of force and pressure as I'd apply to a pen to write a love poem, maybe even less force. But you are not a physician who has dealt with human bodies to realize how strong, yet paradoxically vulnerable human bodies are. Not many people other than physicians understand this. Maybe butchers, and killers who knife or dismember victims. There are vessels, nerves, and tendons easily accessible to a steak knife that can lead to life altering, permanent disability, if not death.

I've no doubt the cops could have physically taken the knife away from her, but not without the risks above to them. And definitely not without twisting her arm in an abnormal angle, piling on, tackling her, punching her in the face, and otherwise breaking her. Elderly or not, you can't make an adult release their grip on a knife without doing all of the above. This isn't grabbing a cane from grandma. This is a knife.

The taser was the most humane way to protect everyone in that moment.

 

[WisNeuro]

A scalpel blade is tiny, about an inch long. But I have dissected and flayed open human bodies from stem to stern with it, using the same amount of force and pressure as I'd apply to a pen to write a love poem, maybe even less force. But you are not a physician who has dealt with human bodies to realize how strong, yet paradoxically vulnerable human bodies are. Not many people other than physicians understand this. Maybe butchers, and killers who knife or dismember victims. There are vessels, nerves, and tendons easily accessible to a steak knife that can lead to life altering, permanent disability, if not death.

I've no doubt the cops could have physically taken the knife away from her, but not without the risks above to them. And definitely not without twisting her arm in an abnormal angle, piling on, tackling her, punching her in the face, and otherwise breaking her. Elderly or not, you can't make an adult release their grip on a knife without doing all of the above. This isn't grabbing a cane from grandma. This is a knife.

The taser was the most humane way to protect everyone in that moment.

Must have missed the part of the story where the centenarian was actually a physician with a scalpel in disguise. Man, when did the wussification of the world take over?

 

[Celexa]

Blunt force trauma wounds from hooves are not an apple to orange comparison to a knife laceration. Both can be deadly, but one is a weapon. One is a danger. Horses and cattle, people choose to put themselves in situations that might be dangerous. Further more there are chutes, gates, stalls, arenas, etc that are meant to aid human safety. Completely different not at all an apple to apple comparison. Would need only reflect on an EM rotation or trauma surgery rotation to know how serious knife wounds are. Or to continue the ag metaphor, how easy a knife butchers up an animal, and tissues separate easily.

*I keep forgetting @WisNeuro is one our psychology colleagues. No EM or trauma rotation available. Oops, my bad.

Most psychologists are also not particularly likely to spend much time around advanced dementia patients and understand how rational thought can be gone and the person still retain certain reflexes and canniness that doesn't compare at all to animals.

 

[Stagg737]

If a 95 year old woman in a nursing home can "overpower" one of your police officers, you may need to rethink your fitness requirements in that department.

She doesn't have to "overpower" them. A quick jab or wrong move by the officers can result in their death and/or harm to her. You're sounding more and more like someone with little to no knowledge about disarming techniques or de-escalation of impaired individuals

Just simple problem solving. We need to get back to the time when people weren't such snowflakes and just figured out how to get things done instead of being triggered by centenarians and hitting the easy button.

Taser seems like it was a pretty effective way to "get things done" here....

 

[Stagg737]

Show me the empirical lit on "paradoxical strength" in 90+ and I'll concede a portion of my argument.

From a more scientific take, you're using incorrect terminology and considering the wrong factors. I'm assuming that by "paradoxical strength" you're referring to hysterical strength, which is a debated phenomenon but with plenty of anecdotal accounts.

However, there are plenty of studies in kinesiology that address the self-imposed (conscious and sub-conscious) limitations of muscle contracture. Just google studies on muscle activation or muscle recruitment patterns or get any kinesiology or physiology textbook that addresses muscle activation and growth, but it's pretty common knowledge for those with minimal background in exercise science that even elite athletes performing at high levels only activate a fraction of muscle fibers in muscle groups when using them. It is possible to activate higher percentages of muscle fibers, especially when unconscious restrictions removed, but it puts one at greater risk of injury or unwanted tissue damage. So the idea that a "frail old woman" could be significantly stronger than one would expect to the point that they could be a threat to a "young and healthy" individual is quite realistic.

I could propose plenty of other mechanisms which could play a role in "hysterical strength" as well, but it's not even really necessary if one understands physics and the concept that the force we consciously generate with muscle activation is very different from the force that a muscle group can generate if it were to be completely activated without any kind of restraint.

 

[WisNeuro]

She doesn't have to "overpower" them. A quick jab or wrong move by the officers can result in their death and/or harm to her. You're sounding more and more like someone with little to no knowledge about disarming techniques or de-escalation of impaired individuals


Taser seems like it was a pretty effective way to "get things done" here....

You would be very incorrect here, friend, on all counts.

 

[WisNeuro]

From a more scientific take, you're using incorrect terminology and considering the wrong factors. I'm assuming that by "paradoxical strength" you're referring to hysterical strength, which is a debated phenomenon but with plenty of anecdotal accounts.

However, there are plenty of studies in kinesiology that address the self-imposed (conscious and sub-conscious) limitations of muscle contracture. Just google studies on muscle activation or muscle recruitment patterns or get any kinesiology or physiology textbook that addresses muscle activation and growth, but it's pretty common knowledge for those with minimal background in exercise science that even elite athletes performing at high levels only activate a fraction of muscle fibers in muscle groups when using them. It is possible to activate higher percentages of muscle fibers, especially when unconscious restrictions removed, but it puts one at greater risk of injury or unwanted tissue damage. So the idea that a "frail old woman" could be significantly stronger than one would expect to the point that they could be a threat to a "young and healthy" individual is quite realistic.

I could propose plenty of other mechanisms which could play a role in "hysterical strength" as well, but it's not even really necessary if one understands physics and the concept that the force we consciously generate with muscle activation is very different from the force that a muscle group can generate if it were to be completely activated without any kind of restraint.

I was not the one using incorrect terminology, hence the quotes.

 

[PsyDr]

Everyone wants to end age discrimination until it's a little old granny.

 

[Ceke2002]

From a more scientific take, you're using incorrect terminology and considering the wrong factors. I'm assuming that by "paradoxical strength" you're referring to hysterical strength, which is a debated phenomenon but with plenty of anecdotal accounts.

However, there are plenty of studies in kinesiology that address the self-imposed (conscious and sub-conscious) limitations of muscle contracture. Just google studies on muscle activation or muscle recruitment patterns or get any kinesiology or physiology textbook that addresses muscle activation and growth, but it's pretty common knowledge for those with minimal background in exercise science that even elite athletes performing at high levels only activate a fraction of muscle fibers in muscle groups when using them. It is possible to activate higher percentages of muscle fibers, especially when unconscious restrictions removed, but it puts one at greater risk of injury or unwanted tissue damage. So the idea that a "frail old woman" could be significantly stronger than one would expect to the point that they could be a threat to a "young and healthy" individual is quite realistic.

I could propose plenty of other mechanisms which could play a role in "hysterical strength" as well, but it's not even really necessary if one understands physics and the concept that the force we consciously generate with muscle activation is very different from the force that a muscle group can generate if it were to be completely activated without any kind of restraint.

Hysterical strength, thank you! I was the one using incorrect terminology before, happy to know there is an actual term for what I was talking about. 🙂

 

[Stagg737]

You would be very incorrect here, friend, on all counts.

She does not have to overpower them, only have the knife land in a vulnerable location. It is exceptionally easy to lacerate someone with even a moderately sharp knife. Significant force is not necessary in the least. Here's a paper on it, breaking skin with a steak knife requires about as much force as pushing an elevator button with your finger and stabbing through porks ribs only requires about twice the force:

Forces generated in stabbing attacks: an evaluation of the utility of the mild, moderate and severe scale - PMC

The commonest way of killing in the UK is by a sharp instrument. Knight reported in 1975 that it is impossible to discern with any degree of certainty the degree of force used to create a stab wound. Despite this, expert witnesses continue to ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The idea that an elderly person could not cause serious harm or even death with a steak knife is foolish and naive.

 

[Ceke2002]

I've broken many quarter horses and managed many other 1200 pound animals. In terms of which is more dangerous, thrashing horns/hooves of a 1200+ pound animal or a <100 lb centenarian with a dull steak knife, it's pretty clear. Man/woman up aussie police.

Completely off topic, but my Grandfather worked as a Jackaroo and horse breaker on a cattle station in South Australia back in the 1930s. It's where he met my Grandmother (both now long deceased), she was a scullery maid and cook mostly, but also helped out breaking horses as well. That's when she wasn't taking my Grandfather on secluded picnics out bush so he could cross dress in peace. Yeah, my Grandfather the cross dressing cowboy.

Seriously though it's a tough job, you have my respect on that. 🙂

 

[WisNeuro]

Y'all are too easy, I'm half just screwing with you. But, seriously, toughen up. This shouldn't have gone down this way, especially with supposedly trained professionals.

 

[WisNeuro]

Completely off topic, but my Grandfather worked as a Jackaroo and horse breaker on a cattle station in South Australia back in the 1930s. It's where he met my Grandmother (both now long deceased), she was a scullery maid and cook mostly, but also helped out breaking horses as well. That's when she wasn't taking my Grandfather on secluded picnics out bush so he could cross dress in peace. Yeah, my Grandfather the cross dressing cowboy.

Seriously though it's a tough job, you have my respect on that. 🙂

I loved it growing up. Not sure how me decades later would handle the breaking process, but I can still ride just fine.

 

[Ceke2002]

Most psychologists are also not particularly likely to spend much time around advanced dementia patients and understand how rational thought can be gone and the person still retain certain reflexes and canniness that doesn't compare at all to animals.

There were more than a few incidents with my Mum, both in hospital and in NH care. Several "code blacks" (imminent threat of harm to self or others, code used in South Australia) in hospital, requiring security intervention and emergency sedation; first day she was at the Nursing home she went into a fit of rage and started indiscriminately smashing up the room with her walking stick; regularly rammed her walking frame into walls causing damage; swore at, spat at, scratched, struck and kicked staff on a regular basis; had to wrestle a thankfully completely dull razor off her when she decided trying to gouge her face was a stellar idea. She was considered end stage as well when she charged at nursing staff with a raised walking stick intent on doing serious damage to them. If we hadn't gotten her into a really well managed Nursing Home when we did (staff all fully trained in dealing with Dementia patients and deescalating violent/aggressive situations when needed) the chance of their being a news headline along the lines of 'Elderly woman with dementia beats neighbour to death after system fails her" was a very real possibility.

 

[Mad Jack]

The most dangerous patients I've encountered were inpatient adolescents and those with dementia, both due to the degree of disinhibition and lack of executive functioning. If an elderly patient with dementia is brandishing a knife and are not responding, they likely present a very real threat to either themselves or others. It is unfortunate, but it is likely they took the lowest risk option for both themselves and her. I've had more than one patient that grabbed my arm with dementia and just wouldn't let go, and the strength they have when they're completely disinhibited is something fierce. She likely would have broken several bones as they tried to wrestle that knife away from her.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I loved it growing up. Not sure how me decades later would handle the breaking process, but I can still ride just fine.

I'm just sitting here laughing at Americans telling Australians that they aren't tough enough.

That whole place is covered in literal people killing monsters. That old lady probably spent her childhood fighting said monsters, what's a cop or two to her.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm just sitting here laughing at Americans telling Australians that they aren't tough enough.

That whole place is covered in literal people killing monsters. That old lady probably spent her childhood fighting said monsters, what's a cop or two to her.

I think people in general worldwide are "softer," though it may be more generational. Americans definitely a little softer than many considering my work travels. But, I do still maintain that a police department that cannot achieve disarming a steak knife from a centenarian without killing her, is a police department that I do not trust to do most things.

 

[Mad Jack]

If a 95 year old woman in a nursing home can "overpower" one of your police officers, you may need to rethink your fitness requirements in that department.

They don't need to overpower the officer, they just need to act erratically and land a potentially fatal injury. If police are anything like they are in the United States, they do not have the duty to protect or to put themselves in harm's way and are trained to avoid getting themselves in a situation that puts them or others at risk. The chances of them significantly harming her in an attempted restraint are actually quite high, given her age and frailty, if she is using her full strength to resist restraint, and that's even without the knife being factored in. There's a good chance she could break bones or suffocate if they need to use too much force in restraining her, so the taser makes sense in this case, at least in my opinion

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I think people in general worldwide are "softer," though it may be more generational. Americans definitely a little softer than many considering my work travels. But, I do still maintain that a police department that cannot achieve disarming a steak knife from a centenarian without killing her, is a police department that I do not trust to do most things.

I mean, who cares? She was 95 and super demented. I'd rather this than stay in the NH another day we're I in her shoes.

 

[WisNeuro]

They don't need to overpower the officer, they just need to act erratically and land a potentially fatal injury. If police are anything like they are in the United States, they do not have the duty to protect or to put themselves in harm's way and are trained to avoid getting themselves in a situation that puts them or others at risk. The chances of them significantly harming her in an attempted restraint are actually quite high, given her age and frailty, if she is using her full strength to resist restraint, and that's even without the knife being factored in. There's a good chance she could break bones or suffocate if they need to use too much force in restraining her, so the taser makes sense in this case, at least in my opinion

Difference of opinion, I'm ok with it. My opinion is that they incompetently handled the situation.

I mean, who cares? She was 95 and super demented. I'd rather this than stay in the NH another day we're I in her shoes.

I'm a wholehearted supporter of medically assisted dying when done by choice and still competent.

 

[Justice1071]

There was literally a sheriff's deputy killed in my area years back by an elderly demented woman with a spoon. Shoved the handle right through his temple. Alot of variables in these kinds of scenarios, and I'm sure he and no one else saw that coming.

 

[WisNeuro]

There was literally a sheriff's deputy killed in my area years back by an elderly demented woman with a spoon. Shoved the handle right through his temple. Alot of variables in these kinds of scenarios, and I'm sure he and no one else saw that coming.

I would be curious to see the news article about this case.

 

[Justice1071]

I would be curious to see the news article about this case.

I would be too. It was an example told to my BLET class by a deputy sheriff teaching back in 2010, so it would be prior to then.

 

[Ceke2002]

Latest update is she is still alive, drifting in and out of consciousness, but being kept comfortable. It's still being treated as a Level 1 incident (Police response that causes death or likely death).

The media here is not helping with the situation, at all. First they kept showing video of the woman sky diving to celebrate her 80th birthday, so people were then like, "Oh look how happy she is, how could Police do this to her" obviously without considering there just might be some difference between the sky diving 80 year old, and 95 year old woman in residential care with dementia. Then you've got Police statements saying they are keeping the family up to date with the investigation being reported as "Outrage grows, family demand answers!!!"

And my current favourite BS media reporting? A 'friend of the family', who wasn't even present at the incident, is now saying she was somehow struck twice with the taser, one shot to the front and one shot to the back, at which point she fell backwards striking the back of her head on the ground and causing a fractured skull (the skull fracture has not been confirmed by anyone). So if I have this correct then she was facing the officer when she was tasered, which then caused her to spin around so the Officer could hit her again in the back, and then somehow she spun around again and then fell backwards and hit the floor - or she was tasered once, and then in a move that would have made Shane Warne proud, the Officer somehow managed to discharge the taser a second time, the taser line hovered in mid air, and then changed direction so that it ended up managing to reach all the way around to the back of the woman, and that's how she was struck both front and back from a front on position.

At this point the media really needs to stop you know what stirring at just let the police do their job of investigating the incident.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I would be curious to see the news article about this case.

Florida killer who murdered prison guard with a spoon executed

Before his execution for murdering a prison guard with a spoon, Muhammad ate a meal of sweet potato pie, coconut cake, banana nut bread, vanilla ice cream, strawberry-and-butter pecan ice cream and Fritos corn chips — all washed down by a quarter of a bottle of Sprite.

www.dailymail.co.uk