A bit of a niche question about training/CDA grants?

[jdawg2017]

Hi all,

I hope everyone is doing well! I've been searching for some information about this online and can't really find a clear answer, so I figured I would turn to the trusty SDN forums for some advice.

I am currently on my predoctoral internship and I am applying to neuropsychology fellowship positions now. I am hoping to balance clinical work and research in my professional career, which I hope will be in either an AMC or (if I am very lucky) an R1. I am looking at fellowships that have a heavy research component but will still get me the clinical hours and didactics that I need for licensure and board certification.

My main question revolves around training grants and career development awards at the fellowship level. I have seen several sites make references to wanting trainees to submit for an F32 NRSA. I am happy to do that, but having received an F31 NRSA that funded the last part of my PhD training I am wondering if it's worthwhile to put in applications to these programs that I would be interested in pursuing either foundation grants or a K-award instead (e.g., a K-23 or K99/R00). " I know that the K-awards are likely more competitive than F32s, but my understanding of things is that K-awards are really more structured toward taking a post-doc toward career independence. I have been very fortunate to be very productive during graduate school, so I feel like with the right mentoring team I would feel willing and ready to "shoot for the stars."

Do any of you all have any thoughts about applying for the F32 if you had an F31 vs. applying for a K-award or a foundation fellowship grant? Also, do any of you have any thoughts about putting this in cover letters to fellowship sites that have heavy research emphases (in addition to the clinical training)? I want to convey this goal but am worried it may sound presumptuous. Thanks in advance for any advice! 🙂

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[psycho1391]

Just plug here. If you are interested in working in the VA, career development awards are pretty easy to obtain.

For fellowship options, MIRECCs are great options. You get training, plus don't have to get a CDA right away.

 

[LM02]

If you are already on fellowship, the benefits of applying for an F32 are pretty minimal. By the time it went through review, council, and JIT, assuming you received a fundable score, you'd likely be at the end of your first year of fellowship. The K99/R00 will extend your postdoctoral fellowship, but you will have the transition to faculty built into the R00 portion - the challenge is that the R00 is required to be at an institution that is not the postdoctoral training institution, and I have heard it can be a challenge to meet all of the specific requirements of this part of the grant.

The other K series awards can be a great stepping stone, but if you apply as a postdoc, you'll need a letter of support from your institution saying that you will have a faculty position there (which is required to be non-contingent on the award). Some institutions are willing to do this, but others are less so.

 

[jdawg2017]

If you are already on fellowship, the benefits of applying for an F32 are pretty minimal. By the time it went through review, council, and JIT, assuming you received a fundable score, you'd likely be at the end of your first year of fellowship. The K99/R00 will extend your postdoctoral fellowship, but you will have the transition to faculty built into the R00 portion - the challenge is that the R00 is required to be at an institution that is not the postdoctoral training institution, and I have heard it can be a challenge to meet all of the specific requirements of this part of the grant.

The other K series awards can be a great stepping stone, but if you apply as a postdoc, you'll need a letter of support from your institution saying that you will have a faculty position there (which is required to be non-contingent on the award). Some institutions are willing to do this, but others are less so.

Thank you for the clarification! I guess to clarify the F31 is already technically wrapped up since I can't draw from it an have an internship stipend at the same time. Those are key points to consider r.e. the letter of institutional support if I was to get the K-award piece or a transition for an R00.

Just plug here. If you are interested in working in the VA, career development awards are pretty easy to obtain.

For fellowship options, MIRECCs are great options. You get training, plus don't have to get a CDA right away.

Thank you for the advice! I loved my practicum in the VA and am applying to several VA fellowships! Unfortunately the main clinics in the MIRECC that is most aligned with my work is in a part of the country that I nor my partner want to live. 🙁 I'll look more into their CDA options, though!

 

[PsychPhDone]

Just plug here. If you are interested in working in the VA, career development awards are pretty easy to obtain.

For fellowship options, MIRECCs are great options. You get training, plus don't have to get a CDA right away.

Not to nitpick your point, because I think it was wise to mention these options, but for future readers: I would not consider CDAs "easy" to obtain. For example, 18-27% get funded each cycle in HSRD. I think that's not counting the number whose proposals don't make it though locally or the be LOI stage. Not sure what the funding line is for Ks as a comparison but reader beware: CDA is awesome and gratifying but it is NOT an easy road.

 

[PsychPhDone]

Hi all,

I hope everyone is doing well! I've been searching for some information about this online and can't really find a clear answer, so I figured I would turn to the trusty SDN forums for some advice.

I am currently on my predoctoral internship and I am applying to neuropsychology fellowship positions now. I am hoping to balance clinical work and research in my professional career, which I hope will be in either an AMC or (if I am very lucky) an R1. I am looking at fellowships that have a heavy research component but will still get me the clinical hours and didactics that I need for licensure and board certification.

My main question revolves around training grants and career development awards at the fellowship level. I have seen several sites make references to wanting trainees to submit for an F32 NRSA. I am happy to do that, but having received an F31 NRSA that funded the last part of my PhD training I am wondering if it's worthwhile to put in applications to these programs that I would be interested in pursuing either foundation grants or a K-award instead (e.g., a K-23 or K99/R00). " I know that the K-awards are likely more competitive than F32s, but my understanding of things is that K-awards are really more structured toward taking a post-doc toward career independence. I have been very fortunate to be very productive during graduate school, so I feel like with the right mentoring team I would feel willing and ready to "shoot for the stars."

Do any of you all have any thoughts about applying for the F32 if you had an F31 vs. applying for a K-award or a foundation fellowship grant? Also, do any of you have any thoughts about putting this in cover letters to fellowship sites that have heavy research emphases (in addition to the clinical training)? I want to convey this goal but am worried it may sound presumptuous. Thanks in advance for any advice! 🙂

I don't have an answer for you but whatever direction you go, my advice is to pick an awesome mentor. It's reasonable to reach out to them before applying to discuss this stuff.

 

[psycho1391]

Not to nitpick your point, because I think it was wise to mention these options, but for future readers: I would not consider CDAs "easy" to obtain. For example, 18-27% get funded each cycle in HSRD. I think that's not counting the number whose proposals don't make it though locally or the be LOI stage. Not sure what the funding line is for Ks as a comparison but reader beware: CDA is awesome and gratifying but it is NOT an easy road.

Thanks for clarifying. I think my perception of getting a CDA is likely skewed since most of the folks in the center had good success in getting theirs funded.


Looks like last year F32s had a 28.2% success rate


Also question @PsychPhDone , do you think it'll be easier to obtain funding once ORD merges HRSD, RRD, and CSRD?

 

[cara susanna]

Just plug here. If you are interested in working in the VA, career development awards are pretty easy to obtain.

For fellowship options, MIRECCs are great options. You get training, plus don't have to get a CDA right away.

Second MIRECC fellowships. I didn't do a MIRECC fellowship per se, but did an advanced research fellowship where I had access to the MIRECC network and trainings, and it was just really awesome (even though in the end I decided not to pursue a VA research career).

 

[Ollie123]

Not sure I would say an F32 is a waste if you had an F31, but it is potentially unnecessary. As someone else noted above - the timing of F32s is awkward for clinical psychologists. They make good sense for basic scientists where 3 years is a "short" post-doc and many spend 5+ years in post-doc. Three years is certainly on the longer end in our field. Note that neuro is a little weird because of the strict boarding requirements. So if you can consolidate year 1 into a predominantly clinical year and then pursue research afterwards this could make more sense - I imagine the requirements of an F32 would potentially preclude doing what you need to do to become board-eligible.

I think the K99/R00 route is a very good option for someone like you as long as you are open to moving again. It would be a big boost for applications to R1s and AMCs alike. Otherwise, the K01/K08/K23 route is better (that's what I did).

I wouldn't hesitate to reach out to ask questions about this. However, I can't imagine any reasonable/decent mentor "requiring" someone apply for an F32 instead of a K unless that isn't possible at the institution for whatever reason. You pick the mechanism that makes sense for the individual and find ways to make that work.

 

[PsychPhDone]

Also question @PsychPhDone , do you think it'll be easier to obtain funding once ORD merges HRSD, RRD, and CSRD?

Good question. No clue.

 

[jdawg2017]

Not sure I would say an F32 is a waste if you had an F31, but it is potentially unnecessary. As someone else noted above - the timing of F32s is awkward for clinical psychologists. They make good sense for basic scientists where 3 years is a "short" post-doc and many spend 5+ years in post-doc. Three years is certainly on the longer end in our field. Note that neuro is a little weird because of the strict boarding requirements. So if you can consolidate year 1 into a predominantly clinical year and then pursue research afterwards this could make more sense - I imagine the requirements of an F32 would potentially preclude doing what you need to do to become board-eligible.

I think the K99/R00 route is a very good option for someone like you as long as you are open to moving again. It would be a big boost for applications to R1s and AMCs alike. Otherwise, the K01/K08/K23 route is better (that's what I did).

I wouldn't hesitate to reach out to ask questions about this. However, I can't imagine any reasonable/decent mentor "requiring" someone apply for an F32 instead of a K unless that isn't possible at the institution for whatever reason. You pick the mechanism that makes sense for the individual and find ways to make that work.

Thanks for the advice on this! I agree that the F32 seems a little bit counter-productive toward board certification, and I really don't want a post-doc that goes longer than 3 years max. At that point I would be hoping to transition into either a research prof/instructor/clinical role or, ideally, have landed a more stable longer-term position.

I am leaning more toward the K01/K08/K23 route myself from mentors and colleagues I have seen go through post-doc and transition. I feel like a K99/R00 would be nice if I was absolutely gunning for an R1, but I am frankly leaning more toward positions where I can continue to see patients at least somewhat regularly (1 day a week).

I really appreciate your advice! 🙂