A bunch of questions! Need advice please

[RatherBEventing]

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So I'm sure this is nothing new in the Pre-veterinary field, but I am freaking out! I looked through the other threads to see if there was anything relating to my topic, but I think this might be a little more specific towards my experience/needs, etc.
I'm just overwhelmed at the moment because I have so many odd class hours and my office manager at a vet clinic told me my skill levels aren't increasing because I don't work enough hours a week (anywhere from 10 - 20 hours), and I spoke to a girl who has done a ton of research and vet experience and didn't get into vet school..and the future of vet school just looks so hopeless for me! I feel like they expect us to do lots of research, get shadowing experience with different animals, get good grades in all of our classes, and work at a vet clinic. If I start doing this, I will have no time to sleep! I'm not complaining, I love this stuff and being so busy, but I really do need to sleep at some point too. Any advice on what to do at this point?
I also need to do an Honors and Life Science research project and cannot think of anything to do. I was supposed to go to a marine lab and do marine research but because of my job, I can't leave town. I want to do something basic related to molecular biology and current issues and I have no clue where to start searching. Any ideas? I was thinking antibiotic resistance but I don't know how I would go about doing this (and as an undergrad, we always need to keep in mind our limited resources, access to equipment, and budget)
Thanks!!

oh, if it helps, I have an ok GPA, I'm an Equine pre-vet major (so tons and tons of horsey experience from classes, and from riding), Im going to shadow a food animal doc in December, Ive shadowed at a small animal vet clinic in japan and an equine lameness clinic, and had an externship at an equine surg/med clinic. I also used to volunteer as a dog walker/cat fosterer before college and Im volunteering at a wildlife center

 

[twelvetigers]

It sounds like you need to prioritize. Sure, all the things you mentioned would be great on an application, but you aren't able to do everything, and certainly not all at one time. Prioritize with your experience, and focus in on areas you're actually interested in.

I have no idea about the research thing... do any faculty members have cool research projects that you're interested in? Sometimes it's easier to contribute to an existing project than it is to make up a new one on your own.

 

[RatherBEventing]

unfortunately, our research project has to be our own. I wish I could join with someone else's, that would save my life like no other, but I dont have that option...it has to go into a bound honors thesis book under our own names at the end of completion too.

 

[nyanko]

I think she means faculty members. Nobody is expecting you to be a PI, you just have to get in with a faculty member who will mentor you. For an undergraduate thesis, some tiny branch of a PhD student's dissertation work that they don't have time for is pretty much sufficient, to be honest.

 

[eventualeventer]

Trust me, as an undergrad (or even a grad student) NO ONE expects you to come up with a project out of the blue, find resources, complete it, and write it on your own. The place to start is to figure out which faculty members are doing work that you are interested in and ask if you can go meet them and the people in their labs. You can find potential contacts by looking on the department websites for your college and looking at the faculty roster, or by looking up professors you have had who seemed like they were doing interesting stuff. It does NOT have to be related to what you think you would like to end up doing, or veterinary medicine at all, just start with something you think you might be happy with. Just email the faculty member and say that you were hoping to get involved in research and were wondering if they have room in their lab for a volunteer and could take time to meet with you. It is often a burden of time and resources for the faculty member and some are more willing than others to take on undergrads.

Unless things are very different at your college from where I am (large public research university with graduate students and medium to large research labs), you should not expect to jump in and be given your own project right away. Just like you have to "pay your dues" at the bottom of the heap at the vet clinic, you have to pay your dues in the lab helping with established projects to prove that you are going to stick it out and that you are reliable and trustworthy. Over time, you will be given more responsibility.

I agree with twelvetigers that you need to do some prioritizing. While you are in school, school (well, that and being able to put food on the table, if you are self-supporting) must take priority. It's a heck of a lot easier to go back and get more experience before you apply than to try to bring up 100+ credits of so-so GPA. It's good that you are getting a variety of experiences.

IMO, I would think hard about turning down that opportunity to do marine research. It's not an opportunity that comes around every day, and it sounds like things are already stressful trying to work that much and study. Do you really need the money from the job? Is there no possibility that they would take you back when you get back? How many hours do you have of SA experience -- the difference between 1000 hrs and 1500 hrs (pulling numbers out of thin air) at the same general practice SA vet is probably a lot less important than having solid research experience. I'm not saying you don't have good reasons to stay, but think about it in terms of your long-term prospects.

 

[RatherBEventing]

Thanks for the input!
eventualeventer: Unfortunately I go to a very small private college, so faculty members and research is very limited. Because both Honors and Life science require research projects, many of the faculty members here are overwhelmed by students needing advisors. The Equine Pre-vet department only has 2 faculty members and one of them is getting ready to retire.
I've already chosen my advisor because he does molecular biology and this is what I am interested in, but as far as I know, he does not have any research projects he is currently working on that is available for undergrads to participate in. I would love to do something really simple but has lots of substantial significance to it because I've heard a lot of vet schools see honors projects as (excuse my choice of wording..) "bull****" projects.
I see what you mean about deciding between work and the research though. I think I will take your advice and go ahead and apply (I actually don't have the position just yet) and once I get in I can always change my honors proposal and talk to work again. The proposal is due this quarter and I don't find out if I've gotten into the program until Feb. so this also causes some conflict

 

[Minnerbelle]

I would love to do something really simple but has lots of substantial significance to it because I've heard a lot of vet schools see honors projects as (excuse my choice of wording..) "bull****" projects.

Good luck finding a project that's simple but has "lots of substantial significance" (whatever that means)... If science were that easy, I don't think we would have researchers struggling their entire lives to discover something of the slightest significance.

If you're into molecular biology, then something as simple as evaluating the difference in gene expression of a couple of interesting genes between two different cell types (cancer vs. non-cancer, one organ vs. another organ, one organism vs. another organism, etc...) should more than suffice. As Nyanko said, this would be like a tiny branch of a grad student's dissertation which might look like one panel of one figure on a paper... so I wouldn't expect vet schools to super ooh and aah over it, but I wouldn't say it's a "bullsh*t" project. But hey, you never know... if you happen to stumble upon the the next molecule of the year, it could even end up as the cover story on Nature.

If you really really want to be noticed for your research, then do a master's program or take a couple of years off to find a good research technician job before you apply. I chose to do the latter, and I think I've been given like the simplest project one could pursue in order to have "substantial significance" and it really will take me 2 whole years to see it through to a publication. The actual "experiments" only take about 3-4 months to do... but the preparation and tweaking of conditions is exhausting. Not to mention the $10,000 it costs to run the project.

 

[nyanko]

eventualeventer: Unfortunately I go to a very small private college, so faculty members and research is very limited. Because both Honors and Life science require research projects, many of the faculty members here are overwhelmed by students needing advisors.

The point is, you have to stand out enough to get noticed. Vet clinics, vet schools, residencies, postdocs, and jobs are also all "overwhelmed" by applicants, so get used to it. Why should you expect that this is any different?

I've already chosen my advisor because he does molecular biology and this is what I am interested in, but as far as I know, he does not have any research projects he is currently working on that is available for undergrads to participate in.

Have you spoken with him about it in any actual depth? I don't think I've ever met a faculty member without a ton of new ideas that they just haven't been able to get off the ground yet. A lot of times those new ideas need pilot studies done for grant-writing or whatever. Faculty members don't want to waste their time and resources on students who aren't interested in research for its own sake but only as a hurdle for a requirement or professional school, so maybe you need to change the way you approach it with him.

I would love to do something really simple but has lots of substantial significance to it

good luck with that, dude.

and while you're at it, find me a purple dragon so I can fly to planet Zebes!

because I've heard a lot of vet schools see honors projects as (excuse my choice of wording..) "bull****" projects."

Undergraduate research, unless it is truly exceptional (which requires not only a huge amount of dedication but an even bigger amount of luck!), just won't be seen as equal to research done as part of a graduate level degree or as a full time research assistant. From your post it really seems like you don't have a very good, realistic grasp of what goes into scientific research, or much motivation to actually do it for anything other than making yourself look better for vet schools. If this is the way you come across to faculty members, you won't get far in searching for a question to answer. 😉

 

[twelvetigers]

I think that some of the other things you've done are going to make you stand out in the adcom's eyes far more than this research project will. You sound like you have some pretty awesome experiences already. The research is nice, but more of a requirement to complete your honors degree than something you're doing for vet school. It might not impress the adcoms (like, be the deciding factor for your admittance or something) but they'll never see it as something bad or as a waste of time. Just try to come up with something - you'd be best asking people within your school for advice in thinking of a project, maybe talking to your honors advisor or someone like that?

I do agree with others that the research certainly won't be groundbreaking. And no one expects it to be! Just find something that you, personally, are curious about. My school's honors thesis could be something as simple as a really in-depth report over something... like, rather than doing research via PCR/plates/scientific method etc, it could be research through books/newspapers/magazines etc. The important thing was that it showed a good deal of insight on the topic and was well-written.

 

[nyanko]

My school's honors thesis could be something as simple as a really in-depth report over something... like, rather than doing research via PCR/plates/scientific method etc, it could be research through books/newspapers/magazines etc. The important thing was that it showed a good deal of insight on the topic and was well-written.

If a thesis in a science subject cited books/newspapers/magazines, it would be worse than worthless. In our world, you write a review (that's what this would be) putting together and citing journal articles. 😉

edit: the first chapter of a normal scientific thesis is pretty much this.

 

[twelvetigers]

Well, I should point out that (here) an honors student could be a music major, or a business economics major... an art major... so the "honors thesis" does not have to be a scientific paper. I suppose I wonder if it's the same where eventer is?

Maybe the honors thesis is worthless (no argument from me there) but one does need it to graduate, and therefore... you do one. Er, if you go all the way through with the whole 'honors' thing. I stopped halfway. 6 hours of other stuff every semester (that wasn't relevant to my degree?) OR, an 'honors contract' in biochemistry? Yeah, I decided it wasn't worth it.

Anyway... 🙄

 

[nyanko]

I realize that, but two points:

1) OP's expressed interest is in molecular biology, not Shakespearean era gender roles or some such thing.
2) With all due respect to music/art/english students, I don't think that vet school adcoms would weight that as the type of research that counts for admissions consideration as research*

And I think you missed my original point in the first place. Nobody is entitled to being trusted with a project to do an honors thesis on just by virtue of existing and wanting to. Since it is for an honors program, it isn't unreasonable to consider that one may need to go above and beyond the norm to actually complete it. To expect otherwise is to dilute the value of the distinction.

*though such a thing would show many other important positive qualities to an adcom such as an ability to critically think and integrate information into an overall argument

 

[GellaBella]

Haha well if you were in Jersey you could come work on my project..although I don't think you'd get credit for it.

I'm doing my PhD in Micro and Molecular Genetics and I work on antibiotic resistance in bacteria.

right up your alley! If you need to think of a project on your own you're going to have to do something in one of the fields a professor somewhere in your university works on. Thats the only way to ensure (and even then its not foolproof) that you'll have the necessary equipment.

Your best bet as far as a "simple" project would go would be to find a gene, knock it out, and characterize the phenotype. you're gonna have to read a bunch of papers to try to find a gene to work on though and like nyanko mentioned...there is no such thing as simple in the field of biology.

minimum for the type of project I mentioned you would need access to a PCR machine, restriction enzymes, plasmids for cloning, primers you would need to design, the bacteria/organism you're working on, and medium to grow the organism on. Oh and an incubator. actually, at least 2. and either a heat block or an electroporation machine.

So, yeah, easier said than done for an undergraduate student. I'd be surprised if you made it to the characterization of the phenotype stage, not saying it can't be done but there are often a lot of road blocks in the way. It all depends on how much time you have (ie 2 years till you graduate) and how much time you can devote to the project (ie. x number of hours per day/week etc)

 

[twelvetigers]

I wasn't even trying to comment on anything you said, nyan! Lol. I just think the OP is expecting a bit too much from the project.

 

[BlacKAT33]

Your best bet as far as a "simple" project would go would be to find a gene, knock it out, and characterize the phenotype. you're gonna have to read a bunch of papers to try to find a gene to work on though and like nyanko mentioned...there is no such thing as simple in the field of biology.

It all depends on how much time you have (ie 2 years till you graduate) and how much time you can devote to the project (ie. x number of hours per day/week etc)

I also think this is probably the easiest project. Unfortunately, choosing a gene to knock out could take a long time, and thats just the first step. Ive seen projects like these last from 2-5 years lol Even with an unlimited amount of money (i work at NIH)

 

[RatherBEventing]

Thanks guys! This helps so much. Yea, now that I think about it I guess my main focus has been on looking better for vet school, although I really am interested in research and am considering it as a plan B. Thanks so much for the phenotype suggestion, Gella, I seriously did not think of doing that and I'm sure my advisor would love to help me go somewhere with that.
Sorry, I guess I should've clarified when I said "substantial yet simple" research project...I've had to read a ton of research papers and I realize that it takes many many years to conduct research and even then, sometimes the answer is not found. Thats what science is about! Let me give a better example: Theres a girl in my class who is comparing the effectiveness of herbal dewormers vs regular dewormers. Very simple, because all you need to do is get your hands on reg. and herbal dewormers, a group to study and do the experiments on, and do a bunch of fecal floats and compare results before and after. Obviously the sample size is probably not very large and such, but you can't expect too much from an undergrad research project. so it is simple, but substantial because dewormer resistance (i think its ivermectin thats the problem? correct me if im wrong please) is such a large issue right now. so thats kind of the thing I was going for, something really simple, but it pertains to a large veterinary issue.

 

[StayingHopeful]

Just make sure that if you're planning on getting a letter of rec from your boss and he/she is saying that you aren't improving because you aren't working enough hours that you are careful about that. Maybe ask for his/her input in how to prioritize or what to do? By the time your boss noticed that and said something to you it probably has been on their mind for a while. On the other hand, if you aren't planning on asking for a letter from him/her maybe just explain your commitments and ask how you could learn faster if you can't do a lot about your hours?
Good luck 🙂

 

[cowgirla]

I agree with twelvetigers that you need to do some prioritizing. While you are in school, school (well, that and being able to put food on the table, if you are self-supporting) must take priority. It's a heck of a lot easier to go back and get more experience before you apply than to try to bring up 100+ credits of so-so GPA. It's good that you are getting a variety of experiences.

I agree-- make sure your schoolwork does not suffer! I worked all through college and really wish I hadn't. As such, It would take me another 2-3 years of nothing but 4.0s to raise my GPA to where I'd like it to be...Soo much easier to get your experience hours up!

 

[sumstorm]

Also realize that unless you need the job, you aren't necessarily expected to have a lot of practical vet tech skills coming into vet school. In some places, unless you are a LVT, you wouldn't havethe opportunity to gain such skills. It is important to have a positive relationship with the vet if they will be a LOR, but if the expectation of the vet is that you become an excellent tech, that may not mesh well with all the pre-vet preperation.

As far as honors research, this varies from school to school. It must be deemed publishable (and preferably published) at my undergrad (in the hard and soft sciences) and displayable/presentable in the arts. Many scientists underestimate how much actual work can go into research in literature (a friend spent her honors tracking down historical women's guides and delineating the reflections of socioeconimic standards and how those altered writing styles/formats/etc, which can then be used to define time periods for other writings.) Our projects were also 2 years long.

The quickest way to figure out research options is to talk to lots of instructors and professors. Don't assume that your research must be under an instructor at your school (you will probably still need an advisor at your school.) I completed a toxicology study under a grad prof as PI at a state university a couple hours from my undergrad. It was a project he didn't have any master's students interested in.

Having said all of that, you have to determine what your interests are and what is most important to you. If you stretch yourself too thin, you will falter. We have students in my class that haven't done any research, aren't 4.0's or 1600's or have any obvious 'diversity' points (and are great students), and then we have people on the opposit end...PhD completed, worked in Pharm for years, traveled the world, published, LVT, military, etc.