A Dishonest Applicant

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FutureDoctor19

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Hey you guys
You are not going to believe this!! One of my pre-med classmates is applying to med school and he said that he put down volunteer work he didnt even do!!!! Cant the AMCAS catch him?
 
Nope. Only hope for a bust is for him or her to slip him when describing the volunteer experiences at an interview. Med schools don't have the resources, time, or energy to call references and check this stuff unless it's obviously phony in some way.
 
The idiot also said he has family ties to the state where the school is at and he doesnt even have family down there!!!!!!!!!
 
if he said that hes got family in the state and he's lying the ADCOM will sooner or later catch the lie
 
your classmate is really committing an injustice to all of the pre-med applicants out there who have worked hard to get where they are
 
He might get busted on the family thing if he gets acceppted and the adcom wants proof. All they have to do is ask for address and phone number and he's busted.

As far as the volunteer experience.....I'm sure plenty of people have lied about it: not that it's a good thing.
My friend three years ago lied and said he worked in an ER for six months when he only spent 6 hours there.
 
Originally posted by bubbajones
if he said that hes got family in the state and he's lying the ADCOM will sooner or later catch the lie
Click to expand...

maybe, maybe not. after all, what about these 'doctors' who Dateline does exposes on who practice medicine for years - having licenses from state boards etc - and yet have never even been to medical school let alone med school and residency.

It's a bad thing to do and he does run a huge risk but some people do get away with incredible things.
 
Hey, he might be lying to you. I mean, did you actually see his amcas application? He might be just messing with you. I think that most of us would recognize that being honest is the best way to conduct ourselves.
 
yeah i saw his application i was in the computer lab when was filling it out. I just think its wrong what some people stoop too.
 
They will never find out. They simply don't have the time. I know plenty of people who have done this (don't agree with them).
 
actually aamcas can bust him because when you list your volunteer work you have to give a contact name and number.
 
The things people do😡

It really is not fair to those of us who actually put in the time and effort because this is what we really want to do.
 
yes, but as stated above, they wouldnt have the time or inclination to actually call all your references. they might call if they see something fishy though.

you cant really stop others from doing this, just try to be honest yourself.
 
An interviewer who is also a psychiatrist at our school says she can spot liers a mile away. I'm sure she doesn't catch everybody in every lie but, I'm sure she can pick up on alot of nonverbal cues that the interviewee doesn't know he's giving off.
 
I think that in theory AMCAS has enough information in the application to be able to confirm volunteer work etc. But, as someone else pointed out above, they simply don't have the time or the resources to check all the applications that roll in. I'm not even sure if they do random checks. Perhaps the only time applicants get exposed is if they provide information that is internally inconsistent, or just too outlandish to fit the rest of the application.
I'm also certain that many applicants exaggerate their experiences and qualifications. There is no way in hell that AMCAS or even medical schools can go around confirming all of that or even a significant portion of it. I suppose that we are all on an honor system here. But, then, it is painfully obvious that not all people have honor.

with regards
 
Um yeah, I would say (sadly) that the chances of this person getting caught are slim to known.
 
A lot of psychiatrists have elevated senses of their own abilities. It would be interesting to see how many investigations occur for falsified applications, but having never heard of one or read about one, I suspect it is a very, very small portion.
 
Hopefully their karma will catch up w/ them.
 
Originally posted by missMD
An interviewer who is also a psychiatrist at our school says she can spot liers a mile away. I'm sure she doesn't catch everybody in every lie but, I'm sure she can pick up on alot of nonverbal cues that the interviewee doesn't know he's giving off.
Click to expand...
that's bullsh*t. everyone perpetuates that myth to stop liars.
 
Hey Futuredoc...I don't know but I think its kind of shady for someone to be snooping on another applicant and then actually casting judgement on them. Maybe the person is lying, but you don't have to get worked up over people that have no scruples (we don't live in a perfect world). Sit back and just remember that these people will eventually get what they deserve. Have a little faith in the system.
 
Hey weirdo-- People who cheat or are dishonest in non-wanton ways very often don't get what they deserve. This particular guy has maybe a 5% chance of getting detected, and the only way this will occur is if he is internally inconsistent or doesn't review his application just before he goes to interviews. And, if he is part of that 95% that get away with it and gets into a better med school than he is entitled, I don't think he'll look back at the 55% of applicants who get rejected and feel guilty or even think about his actions again.

People come up with karma and religion and other such constructions in part to cope with life's unfairness and the fact that people can do all kinds of nasty stuff and get away with it forever. The O.P. has every right to be a little annoyed with his friend's candidacy strengthening actions. They are unfair to all the other candidates.
 
i wouldn't wait till they get what they deserve. I would give them what they deserve. If I know 100% that this person HAS ALREADY SUBMITTED (you have to be 100% certain that they gave falsified info, not just a suspicion that they might)falsified info, I would notify AMCAS of this, upon which they should investigate..but probably wouldn't...the best way is to notify the specific schools, such as the state school that the student claims to have ties to that specific state.

i would take action. i know i am in the minority in what i would do, but it feels great to do what u believe is right and i belive that a person who is such a liar doesn't deserve to be a physician.
 
I went to one of those pre-med open house type events at my school's med school and the head of admissions said that they already consider the non verifiable information applicants give them as dubious at best. If the experiences are backed up by a letter of recommendation or some other independent source then they carry a lot more weight. I suspect most schools take the same approach.
 
I really wouldn't worry about this too much. You are right that this type of behavior is wrong and should be avoided. However, there is no sense worrying about how this may affect you. It has been my experience that this type of crap comes back on people - not in the sense of karma or as another poster suggested "a construct used to cope w/ the unfairness of the world." It's my belief that these people simply sabotage themselves (most of the people I know who had "bad" interviews were asked thorough questions regarding an experience they exaggerated. It doesn't take "complex verbal clues" to notice when someone can't thoroughly explain a job, experience or family they are making up). Example: Of all the people you heard of cheating in undergrad how many of them made it to med school? How many of those will make it to residency? How many of those will make it to a successful career? The #s keep diminishing. That?s not to say that a few dishonest people won't make it through - but not enough to really hurt you.

If you have learned that being honest is the best way to conduct yourself then stick to that. What other people do is generally out of your control and THEY are the ones who will/might have to suffer the consequences.
 
when i interviewed in wisconsin and illinois, I was asked about my family in the area. Thank god I wasn't lying because they asked where they lived and started talking about the area. If i hadn't spent plenty of time there, I would have looked like an idiot.

as far as the fake volunteer experience, i'm afraid tons of people fudge those records. i think the most common thing to do though is to extend the amount of hours put into it. the above poster was correct in saying that it is very unlikely that a med school would be able to find out if they lied.
 
While the med school may not find out if they lied, they will notice if no recommendation is present for major clnical EC's. For example, if someone fills claims to have 1 year experience working as an surgery tech, he/she should be able to get a good letter of recommendation from a surgeon or at least a boss. Your experience won't be given much(if any) value otherwise.

Things like working as a volunteer in the ER for 6 months(doing who knows what??) are not given much importance anyway. It's probably not a huge deal that someone lied about this; I doubt he will benefit from it much.
 
my professor from my research lab told me once that med school called her to confirm a LOR, lo and behold, she did not know who that applicant was and told the school straight out that the letter was made up...so yeah, i think med school do check, but prolly not very common, and certainly not for things like volunteer experience, which in my opinion does not make or break an applicant's chance anyways.
 
yea, like the rest of you guys are saying, i know many people who exaggerate the number of hours they work, etc. heck, i know older people who got into med school that did it. cheating on your application will never stop. only you can decide if you want to break some of those chains and take action. do you feel you can nail this guy? go for it if you feel that strongly about it. but its gonna take a lot of effort on your part to prove he's lying.
 
well he was sitting there laughing about it because I told him he was a liar and being unethical. I think it is totally wrong, but im not going to sweat it..Im going to get into med school the honest way.
 
I think the main concern here is for you not to worry about other people! Just do what you need to do and you'll be fine. All I can say is that a dishonest person, or an immature person will definitely be weeded out in the interview process. Ad Comms can see right through people who aren't acting themselves.
 
Like the previous posters have stated, the ECs that are the most important are those that have been substantiated with recs, publications, etc. The ECs that don't have this sort of evidence behind them aren't highly considered by adcoms (I was told this at a premed meeting at my school a couple years ago).
 
Originally posted by FutureDoctor19
well he was sitting there laughing about it because I told him he was a liar and being unethical. I think it is totally wrong, but im not going to sweat it..Im going to get into med school the honest way.
Click to expand...

The karma hammer is going to swing back his way one day.
 
Was it Phar?
 
In schools that implement an explicit honor code, students are obliged not only to follow it themselves but to turn in fellow students who breach the code. Sheltering (by keeping quiet) someone who cheats is seen as a violation of the honor code.

In looking at this case morally, one has to examine the beneficiary of the action. If you do not turn him in, he (the cheater) would benefit if he gets a slot. An honest person potentially loses. If you do turn him in, he will get what he deserves, and an honest person potentially gets a better chance.

Finally, does the willingness to lie on an application indicate that the person has a sense of right and wrong proper to being a physician?
 
well said NNMED. i totally agree with u, but i think we r in the minority in our opinion. but please, it is important not to jump to conclusions too quickly and turn someone in before u know for SURE that they already SUBMITTED false info...the evidence that the original poster gave, is not sufficient to turn that person in as we don't know if that student actually submitted false info. but, if s/he did, i would let AMCAS as well as the state school know. what goes around doesn't necessarily come around..this is a defence mechanism that ppl use to not get too stressed out over sucjh a situation. the reality is, these ppl can and often do get ahead by lying and no one catching them. nip him/her in the bud before s/he does damage as a physician. Fibbing a little about hrs volunteered is not serious..but lying about residency requirements for a state school, making up impressive colunteer experiences is absolutely disgraceful!
 
Well I really dont know the process of turning him in because I cant prove it. I just think anyone who falsifies their record to gain admission is wrong!
 
It'll probably wash out in the end but...

if you wanted to take action I really don't think you would need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this individual is lying. IMO you would just be obliged to pass on the information you know and let AMCAS/the school check it out on their own.
 
You dont have to PROVE that he is lying. Here is what you do:

1. Send a letter to AMCAS indicating that this individual's records need to be reviewed closely.

2. If he lied, they will catch it.

3. If he didnt lie, then they will verify his record and its no harm, no foul.

4. Dont go to AMCAS and tell them that he's lying--just tell them that they need to dig into his application--nothing more.

5. By doing this, you dont have to PROVE anything, you just have to raise the flag and let AMCAS sort it out.
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
You dont have to PROVE that he is lying. Here is what you do:

1. Send a letter to AMCAS indicating that this individual's records need to be reviewed closely.

2. If he lied, they will catch it.

3. If he didnt lie, then they will verify his record and its no harm, no foul.

4. Dont go to AMCAS and tell them that he's lying--just tell them that they need to dig into his application--nothing more.

5. By doing this, you dont have to PROVE anything, you just have to raise the flag and let AMCAS sort it out.
Click to expand...


This is interesting and I'm not sure how I feel about it. But I think if you are going to be "that guy", then you better have the guts to sign your name to that letter. To do it anonymously is snakey and cowardly. Integrity cuts both ways and he should have the right to know who thinks his records need extra 'snooping' - to face his accuser.
That said, it would say a lot about your character, and your belief in doing what's right- no matter who hard it is.
 
Wow,

I hate to sound judgemental, but if the guy is lying on his app, what does that mean to you? By turning him in, you're not going to rid the world of dishonesty. Further, can you honestly say you've never lied to potentially further yourself before? If you can honestly answer no to that, then go ahead and cast the first stone.

You sound a little like Ferris Bueller's sister. Maybe you should spend more time handling your own problems, and less time worrying about what others are doing.

Charlie Sheen
 
doc and ham-
i wholeheartedly agree with what you guys are saying. 1- if you're going to turn the guy in, don't be a bithc about it. just fuc.king do it. next, if you want to be 'that guy' why don't you just confront the person about it and talk to him instead of making a big fuss about it. are you so much of a coward that you can't actually talk to this person, but would REALLY consider taking the time to alert amcas about him? you do as much of an injustice by doing nothing in the first place.

p
 
I am not worried about "him" I thought it was wong and unethical to lie on the application. I just posted it to see what you all thought. So quit jumpin down my throat. Dont you think I have better things to do? I have already confronted him about it.
I never said I was going to turn him in. Geez
 
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