A question about the relation between obssessive compulsive dis and relegious beleifs

[Regallo]

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hello all

I am training these days in the Psychateiry department in one of the Egyptian universiteis . Yesterday we got an obssessive compulsive disorder pateint , he was 38 years of age , working as a buthcher (as he claimed) , has history of child abuse by his father .

he complains of intrusive questions which suddenly emerge in his conscious , for example : Who created the god? what is the sex of the "angles" ? his case get worsened by the death of his mother , he claims that ideas became more absurd as for example insulting god , and prophets , but the pateint's insight and resistance to these ideas was strong to a degree that he clinched on his tongue to prevent himself saying it.

the sssisstant proffessor which discussed the case told us that most atheists really are complaining of obsessive complusive disorder which impuses them to think bad ideas about god (!).

i really think that what she said is wrong , well , iam secular , i think that atheists just can't beleive as beleveirs do , and they are not mentally diseased by anyway.

what do you people think? is what she is saying true?

is there any relationship between mental diseases and relegious beleifs?

thanks.

 

[Psyclops]

Mental illness often takes on a religious feel, at least in western cultures. But I think it is important to remember that these things maybe very culturally oriented. Anyway, i can only speak about western psychology, but often time people who have certain types of psychoses and even Bi-Polar disorders have a preoccupation with religious topics. There is also alot of work done on temporal lobe epilepsy and spiritual feelings, but these tend to be "good" feelings, like being more connected with god.

 

[soaringheights]

Hi Reg,
I 'm not quite sure what u were trying to say back there. Was it that ur assistant prof said that atheists are particularly prone to developing OCD so as to 'vent out' their antireligious feelings in the form of cursing god? Lemme know.

I'm from India, and have dealt with patients of diverse backgrounds. I remember one pt was hospitalized because he had become over zealous in his religion, and had consequently also turned violent. Another pt also had O-C symptoms of god punishing him for his past sins in life and 'making him mad'. In India, the prominent O-C symtoms are cleanliness, but as far as I have seen, such pts are usually very grounded in their religion. Another interesting thing is the cultural conception of mental illness: some people here still believe mental illness to be the wrath of god. So if your culture is steeped historicallyin religion, then mental illness also, in some way, acquires a religious flavour.
Atheists are a novelty in rural India, although their no. is steadily increasing in the metropolitan cities. Although ritualistic religion is on a decline, people still are pretty religious here. But clear religious connotations to a mental illness I'v seen only with delusions of grandeur shown by pts with Schizophrenia and Bipolar with manic features. So, I've yet to come across an atheist with OCD. Maybe if u describe your case more thoroughly, I'll be able to give u better inputs since I too come from an eastern culture.

 

[Psyclops]

I've been thinking about this some more as the day has gone on. It's difficult for me to even say if there would be much to transfer between our two cultures. What I mean is, as I understand from your post, religion is a big part of your society, so big a part that it is abnormal for someone to reject it in the way this man has, am I right? Please correct me if I am wrong. The culture I live in has many who are atheistic, so many that it is no longer viewed as abnormal. Some think it is wrong, but not abnormal. Religion does not always play a role in this society, or at least not as prominent a role as you describe in yours, so if someone were suffereing from the same disorder in both cultures it could be possible that it might involve religion in one and not in the other. Of course these musings are just that, thought that have come to me but most likely will not get you any further with your question. I guess my thinking is that mental disorders necissarily have to be considered through the lens of the culture in which they are exhibited (for the most part, schizophrenia shows the same prevalence cross cultrally for example). I wish you luck with your patient, and appreciate your post. I think we all can learn from posts like this one.

 

[Regallo]

hi all

I am glad with your replies wich really helped me vary much.

Psyclops , your statement "I guess my thinking is that mental disorders necissarily have to be considered through the lens of the culture in which they are exhibited " is completly true , well i live in an islamic country , the soceity is very conservative , and atheism is considered shame and *inpatriotic* in some meanings , and this explains the great resistance shown by the pateint , who told us that he was very relegious before the sickness . what i have concluded from your post is that you don't often see as these cases and that is becuase that these ideas are not absurd enough to annoy anyone in the western soceity (am i true? ) , well it is amazing the diffrence between cultures becuase one of our Prof.s told us that he frequently sees cases as this case ( i mean cases which want to curse god and relegious caracters ) and he told us about other O-C cases which can't stay in a mosque without laghing loudly. i am really glad to know that the intrusive offending ideas of th O-C disorder are completly related to the soceity's own morals and culture .

what the assisstant prof said may give you an idea about what relegion represent in our soceity ; she literally said that " all of us sometimes has O-C thoughts as doughting in the existance of god but healthy ones will reject these ideas , while the sick ones may accept it" in islamic countries as i have said above , we didn't passed to the era of enlightment yet , we are somekind stuk to the mideval era . we don't have someone as Voltaire , even if we have one , the illitracy ratio and the extremists may burry him and his thoughts alive .

dear soar

'm not quite sure what u were trying to say back there. Was it that ur assistant prof said that atheists are particularly prone to developing OCD so as to 'vent out' their antireligious feelings in the form of cursing god? Lemme know.

you have got me wrong , she said that atheists are atheist becuase in some part they are mentally diseased . she was trying to say that atheism is abnormal and somekind of mental illness and there is no mentally healthy person who don't beleive in god.

iam not quiete sure that our two eastern soceitys are the same in this point , may be you should compare us with the muslim soceity in India , and maybe you woudn't find the same cases , becuse in india you have a diversity of relegions and cultures which live in tolerance for like thouthand years , this tolerance nesisetates that people become more modest in their relegion and not to attach to it too much (correct me if iam wrong) . it is not the case in Egypt whhere 92% are muslims , and it is considered by somehow a national identity where atheism is butrial of soceity .

thanks for this amusing and enlighting discussion .

 

[50960]

Maybe the patient has tourettes instead of OCD. A hallmark of this disorder is vocal tics that are often inappropriate to the circumstance (church, mosque etc..)

 

[Psyclops]

Regallo, I really enjoy this discussion. What I meant to say in my post above (I'm nt sure if I was clear) is taht in my culture, we do not consider atheism as evidence of mental disorder. So, if someone wanted to say even the worst things about any god, they could and none would think he was crazy (unless he was doing other crasy things too of course). But, it occurs to me, and I may be wrong , that it could be possible for you to live in a society that places such a high value on religious belief and customs that if someone were an atheist it would be evidence of a mental disorder.

Now, that is not what I believe to be the case, but it could be right? You can imagine that. Let me know your thouhgts.

 

[Regallo]

psisci
He was diagnosed as OCD becuase of his insght and resistance to these thoughts , and becuase he told us that he never said these ideas infront of people.

Psyclops:

well , that would return me to the zero point again , i came to this site to know - from a nuetral source - if what my assisstant prof was sceintifically right or wrong , you are telling me that each soceity has its own charactristics , and it could be that there is communitys where atheistm considered mental illness , and my assisstant prof is not completly wrong.
i don't know really , what about the first atheistic "nucleus" in the western community was they mentally inhealthy? and what is the diffrence between OCD with relegious content and the sceince called "Comparative Theology" where they compare diffrent relegions together begening with an assumption that no relegion is more right than the other??
i say there should be a diffrence , it is impossible that there is relegion which completly protected against atheistic thoughts , there must be healthy people who refuse it .
you don't know what you have said in the last post represnt to us , it could be used as a tool in the war between seculars and extremists , simply they will judge every criticism to their relegion as insanity and refuse it.
lastly , where i can read about this topic? or is it hard to find such as these topics in the western refrences?

thanks

 

[Psyclops]

Regallo,
I'm sorry if what I said could be used against you. Luckily no one listens to me anyway!! But in continuing our dialogue, I will be more open with you. I think your professor is wrong. There is a long history in christianity of accusing people who did believe what they did or behave as they said as mentally ill. In America, early on, they would burned people who acted differently because they said they were witches. The thought today seems absurd, and crazy, but that's how it was back then, in a highly regimented religious society. It works the other way too! There are christain saints who today would be considered insane because of thier beliefs. Take Jean D'Arc for example she was made a saint because she supposedly heard the word of god, and fought against england for france. Today it seems pretty clear that she suffered from some severe psychopathology (or at least that is what it would seem). I think there is no correlation between religion and insanity in the way your professor is describing. If anything, going back to my first post, there is a correlation between severe psychopathology and intense religious thoughts. I don't thikn it would be hard to find things like this to read about, let me take a look and se if I find anything.

 

[soaringheights]

iam not quiete sure that our two eastern soceitys are the same in this point , may be you should compare us with the muslim soceity in India , and maybe you woudn't find the same cases , becuse in india you have a diversity of relegions and cultures which live in tolerance for like thouthand years , this tolerance nesisetates that people become more modest in their relegion and not to attach to it too much (correct me if iam wrong)

Hi Regallo,

You are somewhat right. Our cultures do differ in that people of diverse religions have been co existing since centuries. However, I wouldn't necessarily add the qualifier 'peaceful coextistence', but that matter is not pertinent to this discussion. While people have been coexisting, with their usual tiffs peppered in between, this fact does not translate them in attenuating their religious beliefs. There are still plenty of Hindu and Muslim pockets in Bombay where I live, and people in these areas are very zealous in their religions. They continue to attach a lot of improtance to religion, and atheism is generally frowned upon, but I beleive that if anyone were to turn atheist, she/he wouldn't be considered to be afflicted with a mental illness, as u have mentioned the case with your culture. At the same time, I have noticed that religious dogmatism and fundamentalism, if gone overboard, rather than atheism, would open the doors for psychiatry to step in over here (i.e. at least in Bombay, which is pretty cosmopolitan).

 

[soaringheights]

what the assisstant prof said may give you an idea about what relegion represent in our soceity ; she literally said that " all of us sometimes has O-C thoughts as doughting in the existance of god but healthy ones will reject these ideas , while the sick ones may accept it"

Incidentally, is your assistant professor backing this statement with some logical theory or explanation, or is her comment purely a reflection/commentary on the culture u come from?

 

[Regallo]

Incidentally, is your assistant professor backing this statement with some logical theory or explanation, or is her comment purely a reflection/commentary on the culture u come from?
soaringheights is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote

that why i started this thread. i that feel she is completely wrong and that she had crossed the border between teaching us sceince and telling her own relegious opinions . unfortuntally i don't dare telling her that what she said is a completly wrong and indicates only her ignorance.

 

[Psyclops]

If it makes you feel better, I agree with you, that is what I think is going on. Before I wanted to be sensitive to your culture. But I agree with you. Good luck!

 

[soaringheights]

Ya, I also agree. Its bad enough with your society being on your back about atheism, but your own teachers also holding such a tunnel vision of human nautre and beliefs systems is unpalatable....