A question on ACGME rules for any academic center seniors/attendings

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WUPM

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One of the ACGME core requirements states that for inpatient medicine "a first-year resident must not be responsible for the ongoing care of more than 10 patients"

So...what exactly does this mean? Is that referring to writing 10 morning notes? Don't most residencies have everyone sign out to one unlucky intern who stays later than the others each day, finishing up the shift To-Do's and taking first-call responsibility for more like 15-20 patients? Or even 30+ patients at night time if one intern takes first-call for two teams?

Source is IV.C.3.g).(3)

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Yes. This refers to the daily census, does not include night float. Night float may cover many more than 2 teams, and the ACGME doesn't spell this out.

Somewhat unclear in this rule is whether this limits interns to a total of 10 patients for the day, or 10 patients at any given time. In the latter, a team at 10 could discharge 2 and then admit 2 more -- never going over 10 patients but writing 12 notes for the day.
 
for more like 15-20 patients? Or even 30+ patients at night time if one intern takes first-call for two teams?
I can't speak for other programs, but in my experience a medicine night float resident can expect to cover way, way, way more than 30 patients...it sounds scarier than it is.

whether this limits interns to a total of 10 patients for the day, or 10 patients at any given time.
I've seen it done both ways, i.e. on uncapped services the intern gets "capped" at X number of notes per day (after which the senior writes notes), whereas on capped services the intern is responsible for every patient and every note on the service at any given time (since the cap is 10). That means if you discharge 5 and admit 5, you're writing 15 notes...unless your senior is nice.
 
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It’s always program/attending/chief resident dependent.

Are we seriously having a discussions about how many notes an intern is “writing” daily in the days of EMR?

Documentation is important, sure, but actual work of doctoring is not writing notes….. I guess I’ve always been lucky and have awesome seniors who would just say, just copy my notes and see the patient when you can….. that was in the days of actually pen and paper charts.

When we were night float as interns we carried 20 max; residents covered ~40.
 
One of the ACGME core requirements states that for inpatient medicine "a first-year resident must not be responsible for the ongoing care of more than 10 patients"

So...what exactly does this mean? Is that referring to writing 10 morning notes? Don't most residencies have everyone sign out to one unlucky intern who stays later than the others each day, finishing up the shift To-Do's and taking first-call responsibility for more like 15-20 patients? Or even 30+ patients at night time if one intern takes first-call for two teams?

Source is IV.C.3.g).(3)
At my program it is a hard cap, meaning if you have 10 on your side, you cannot admit anymore or care for anymore even if it’s admitted to your team.

Now if you discharge 4, you can write 10 notes and then admit 4 more that same day because it is “ongoing care” of 10 pts at that time after discharge (despite the fact that your work with those patients are not done because DC summaries).

Night float does not count, you are cross covering calls but not rounding or coming up with a plan for those patients to move their care forward. That’s why you can cover more than 10. Senior residents on night float can only admit 10. Then private hospitalist take over.
 
Thanks for the clarification everyone! Much appreciated. I wish they defined what swing shift and night cross-cover meant somewhere and were more explicit about having no rules for these.
Are we seriously having a discussions about how many notes an intern is “writing” daily in the days of EMR?
The interns at my program spend far more time documenting H&Ps, progress notes, discharge summaries, discharge instructions, and doing social/case manager paperwork, than they do rounding or reading 🙁

My understanding is that's the norm for interns everywhere these days. That's why my first assumption was that "ongoing care" meant "charting duties" and not "answering pages and placing orders"
 
One of the ACGME core requirements states that for inpatient medicine "a first-year resident must not be responsible for the ongoing care of more than 10 patients"

So...what exactly does this mean? Is that referring to writing 10 morning notes? Don't most residencies have everyone sign out to one unlucky intern who stays later than the others each day, finishing up the shift To-Do's and taking first-call responsibility for more like 15-20 patients? Or even 30+ patients at night time if one intern takes first-call for two teams?

Source is IV.C.3.g).(3)
It means ongoing care, i.e., 10 patients you’re holding at once. If patients are discharged, you can be in charge of new ones. It doesn’t include having long call and ordering a troponin/EKG on someone you get called on about chest pain.
 
Thanks for the clarification everyone! Much appreciated. I wish they defined what swing shift and night cross-cover meant somewhere and were more explicit about having no rules for these.

The interns at my program spend far more time documenting H&Ps, progress notes, discharge summaries, discharge instructions, and doing social/case manager paperwork, than they do rounding or reading 🙁

My understanding is that's the norm for interns everywhere these days. That's why my first assumption was that "ongoing care" meant "charting duties" and not "answering pages and placing orders"
This is the norm.
 
It means ongoing care, i.e., 10 patients you’re holding at once. If patients are discharged, you can be in charge of new ones. It doesn’t include having long call and ordering a troponin/EKG on someone you get called on about chest pain.
I guess my question then is how you define holding? Like if it's 1pm on a weekend and your cointern signs out to you a rectal bleed that needs repeat hemoglobin check and GI paged for big drop, aren't you responsible for that patients ongoing care? But it seems like that's what happens, one intern ends up having 15-20 people under their care for a big part of the shift, they just only wrote half their notes and rounds orders that morning.
 
I guess my question then is how you define holding? Like if it's 1pm on a weekend and your cointern signs out to you a rectal bleed that needs repeat hemoglobin check and GI paged for big drop, aren't you responsible for that patients ongoing care? But it seems like that's what happens, one intern ends up having 15-20 people under their care for a big part of the shift, they just only wrote half their notes and rounds orders that morning.

You are responsible for that patient while on call for that definite period, but you aren’t responsible for the care coordination (ongoing care). Usually those q12H H/Hs are treating ourselves more than the patient anyways. 95% of the time it’s normal and NTD.

I’m not sure what you mean by the second half. Are you saying between two interns one is getting 15 patients and the other is getting 5? I like to think of things as caps. Your cap is the number of patients you’re overseeing from admit to discharge. That cap as an intern should be 10.
 
You are responsible for that patient while on call for that definite period, but you aren’t responsible for the care coordination (ongoing care). Usually those q12H H/Hs are treating ourselves more than the patient anyways. 95% of the time it’s normal and NTD.

I’m not sure what you mean by the second half. Are you saying between two interns one is getting 15 patients and the other is getting 5? I like to think of things as caps. Your cap is the number of patients you’re overseeing from admit to discharge. That cap as an intern should be 10.
I mean say the service is 18 people. For the morning notes and rounds, you split that 9 and 9. But once the other intern signs out and goes home, now you're first-call and finishing any to-do's for all 18. I was trying to understand how that was compatible with "interns cannot be responsible for ongoing care of more than 10 people." Sounds like it's because ongoing care really just means the 6am-early afternoon part with all the documenting and frantic morning phone calls!
 
When you sign out to someone cross covering you, you need to make sure everything routine has been taken care of for your patient. So order the morning labs, write the note, order whatever imaging is needed, check all the mundane stuff (SW, consultant notes, etc.). If there are any outstanding test results, important consult recs pending, or other things to be done for a patient that can't be done before you leave, you let the covering person know to follow up on these things, but make their work on your patient as minimal as possible. Assume they will be busy with some disaster and have minimal time to spend on other things. You will appreciate the same courtesy when you are covering others' patients. Think of the "10 patients" as 10 you know every medical detail about day-in/day-out, while the rest of the patients you cover on call are patients you know the bare minimum about to keep alive for a finite number of hours until their usual team is back.

Also, this 10 patient rule does not apply to every specialty. It applies to IM and some others, but not surgical specialties. Each specialty has their own rules to follow.
 
I mean say the service is 18 people. For the morning notes and rounds, you split that 9 and 9. But once the other intern signs out and goes home, now you're first-call and finishing any to-do's for all 18. I was trying to understand how that was compatible with "interns cannot be responsible for ongoing care of more than 10 people." Sounds like it's because ongoing care really just means the 6am-early afternoon part with all the documenting and frantic morning phone calls!

I’m going to make some assumptions here and say someone is upset post-call.

If I’m reading between the lines correctly and you’re frustrated with your co-intern/set up for unfinished tasks, the first step is to talk to them first (not SDN, not your senior, definitely not your attending/chief). Identify 3 examples of something that you felt they should have handled before leaving (refer to Smurfette’s explanation above) that were not handled and explain how that affects you and therefore care. If you don’t want to do that (fear of political ramifications in your program), you’re going to have to just deal with it. Alternatively, if you feel you are working much harder than your colleagues and not being recognized, that is equally frustrating but a good problem to have in the long run and the best strategy is to say nothing and let the things work themselves out. The reasons for this are numerous.

1.) In regards to your point about referencing duty hours, I feel that it’s a weak rationalization. I’m not sure if it’s written somewhere but as the intern, ongoing care to others effectively means who presents and writes the note for the patient. To YOU it should mean what Smurfette writes above (for the sake of YOUR training). In essence, the plan on each of your patients should be finalized before leaving.

2.) The first step in anything that needs to be escalated is a 1-1 conversation with the person. If there are multiple persons involved who aren't having an issue, reflect what it is you’re doing that’s making you feel this way. You could be overdoing/working things and may benefit from pulling back to avoid burn out. If you ever need to escalate, the first thing you will be asked is if you talked to the person.

3.) Follow up items are not part of carrying a patient and trying to argue such will be perceived in poor light. A critical skill to learn as a physician is to prioritize in order to manage simultaneous tasks. You need to learn to prioritize between admissions, discharges, to-do items, etc. It’s one of the most important things to learn in training. I echo what Smurfette says above regarding what ongoing care is.
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Now if everyone feels the same you do, maybe it’s something worth bringing up at the next meeting. Most programs host chief open houses or town halls anywhere from weekly to quarterly. If it seems like this is a systemic issue, talk to a couple of people and find three recurring themes that adversely affect patient care that occur as a result of the current call system and propose an alternative. Definitely talk to a few people who you know are in good standing with the program (and not vigilantes themselves) to see if they feel the same way before doing this.
 
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I mean say the service is 18 people. For the morning notes and rounds, you split that 9 and 9. But once the other intern signs out and goes home, now you're first-call and finishing any to-do's for all 18. I was trying to understand how that was compatible with "interns cannot be responsible for ongoing care of more than 10 people." Sounds like it's because ongoing care really just means the 6am-early afternoon part with all the documenting and frantic morning phone calls!
We do this at our program. Say the senior is off the the two interns are there over the weekend. At noon after rounds the other intern will cross cover the other interns patients and they can leave. The cross covering intern is not responsible for writing those notes or “pushing the care forward” so to speak but you are going to need to know them.

After all, when you are a senior resident, you’ll be expected to know up to 20 patients but again, you’ll only be responsible for 10 (meaning notes) on days the intern is off.
 
Again appreciate all the detailed discussions! Sub-I limits are very cushy where I rotated (only 3-4 patients each) so I never felt crushed. But the interns seemed pretty overwhelmed sometimes trying to field up to 5 new admissions on top of holding pager for a 20 patient service that still had ongoing results/recommendations coming in all afternoon and evening. I was wondering whether the program was pushing the boundaries of what an intern can be responsible for, but it sounds like as long as they are only writing the morning note and presenting on 10 or less, it's all kosher.

Being a senior that is familiar with 20 people but does none of the notes, presentations, or consult discussions seems waaaay chiller!
 
Again appreciate all the detailed discussions! Sub-I limits are very cushy where I rotated (only 3-4 patients each) so I never felt crushed. But the interns seemed pretty overwhelmed sometimes trying to field up to 5 new admissions on top of holding pager for a 20 patient service that still had ongoing results/recommendations coming in all afternoon and evening. I was wondering whether the program was pushing the boundaries of what an intern can be responsible for, but it sounds like as long as they are only writing the morning note and presenting on 10 or less, it's all kosher.

Being a senior that is familiar with 20 people but does none of the notes, presentations, or consult discussions seems waaaay chiller!
I mean, until you have interns that don't do what they're supposed to do, or attendings calling you directly instead of the intern because they know you better. And then the interns are talking to you about how to order Tylenol because it's July and they're never actually put in orders before, or figuring out how to interpret an MRI that was done.. And you try to teach something to the medical students and interns because you haven't spoken to the students since rounds. And you have to give feedback to your interns. It's a lot.
 
I mean, until you have interns that don't do what they're supposed to do, or attendings calling you directly instead of the intern because they know you better. And then the interns are talking to you about how to order Tylenol because it's July and they're never actually put in orders before, or figuring out how to interpret an MRI that was done.. And you try to teach something to the medical students and interns because you haven't spoken to the students since rounds. And you have to give feedback to your interns. It's a lot.

It differs by institution, but in places with a good academic culture (i.e.- solid practical teaching, accountability, no intern blaming), being a senior should be harder than being an intern. The accountability should increase. In reality, in some places it just doesn't.
 
Being a sub-I, intern, resident and eventually attending are all different.

From medical student (even sub-I) to doctor (pgy-1) is a huge jump, the so called learning curve is steep.

Writing notes, following up consults and labs are only parts of being a doctor…. “Carrying” 10 patient and “cross cover” 20, to eventually covering the whole hospital. Just a part of the process.

You don’t know what you don’t know.
 
Being a senior that is familiar with 20 people but does none of the notes, presentations, or consult discussions seems waaaay chiller!
Agree with everyone else. While the workload massively increases from sub-I to intern year, it is the big increase in responsibility and accountability between intern year and being an upper level that can get people. During intern year you always have someone telling you what to do (directly or subtly) and have someone looking over your shoulder to fix any mistakes. As a senior, you're in charge. If things are getting hairy, everyone in the room is going to turn to you to call the shots.

It doesn't have to be stressful. When the list is short and simple you can kick back a bit, and especially in specialties with multiple levels of resident hierarchy (as opposed to just intern vs upper level) the junior can provide some supervision themselves. But the work never stops, it just changes.

Also, dispo issues. I'll just leave it at that, you'll find out for yourself.
 
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