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3AA said:
Hey y’all I was jw, is it possible to go to a top tier IM residency from a low tier med school without AOA? I’ve been seeing diff things and just wanted some clarity, ty!
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Hard but not impossible. AOA certainly helps and so does as many IM related Honors during various clerkships. If you do not have AOA, then steps will count a lot more. Research will matter. obviously, if none of the things are present - no AOA, no honors, no good Steps then yes impossible. As peachrings said, put your head down and put in the work.
 
CanIMakeIt said:
Hard but not impossible. AOA certainly helps and so does as many IM related Honors during various clerkships. If you do not have AOA, then steps will count a lot more. Research will matter. obviously, if none of the things are present - no AOA, no honors, no good Steps then yes impossible. As peachrings said, put your head down and put in the work.
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it’s still possible to match at a top IM program even without all of those things...happens every year
 
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With good letters of recommendation, and good clerkship evaluations, it's absolutely possible. It would also help to do a subinternship (or at least an elective) at a top program. Focus on being attentive, enthusiastic, thoughtful, and caring--if people like you, they won't care that you went to a "low tier" school.
 
If we’re talking low-tier 80+, you pretty much have to get AOA to get a top 20 IM program. I don’t even think all or mostly honors is enough. Step 1 scores aren’t weighed a whole lot for top tier IM, only let’s you get past the screening. Just trying to be realistic with you. I’ve talked to friends in my state schools and those with high steps and mostly honors go to mid-tier, while AOA gets top-tier. IM is notorious for being one of the most prestige driven specialties.
 
Anyone has suggestion on low tier MD to top NSG program?
 
gigijhjj said:
Anyone has suggestion on low tier MD to top NSG program?
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research year with meaningful basic science research and publications , sub is at big name places and then something exceptional like former nfl player or ex special forces .
From low tier schools one is lucky just to match neurosurgery.
 
gigijhjj said:
Anyone has suggestion on low tier MD to top NSG program?
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Depends on how low-tier, but in some ways it's easier to do in nsg than in most other fields. Research, research, research. Full year for research unless you have a PhD.
 
3AA said:
Hey y’all I was jw, is it possible to go to a top tier IM residency from a low tier med school without AOA? I’ve been seeing diff things and just wanted some clarity, ty!
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Do a google search of some top residencies and see where their people come from.
 
LunaOri said:
Here's a link to last year's intern class at MGH, which I think counts as a "top" program. While you will see plenty of faces from Harvard, Duke, etc, there are also interns who graduated from Rutgers, Rosalind Franklin, and other lower-ranked programs.
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Although from the Tx STAR data, 75% who matched MGH had AOA (likely 100% of those from the low-tiers). I have known people who have gotten interviews at top programs in less desirable locations with high step scores and no AOA (Mayo and WashU), from a low-tier.
 
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longhaul3 said:
Depends on how low-tier, but in some ways it's easier to do in nsg than in most other fields. Research, research, research. Full year for research unless you have a PhD.
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State school ranked around 70-80 in research by USNEWS. What do you mean by easier? Thx for the reply though!
 
gigijhjj said:
State school ranked around 70-80 in research by USNEWS. What do you mean by easier? Thx for the reply though!
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There are some top programs that always match applicants from top schools, but others are more impressed by absolute number of publications and things like that that can be achieved in a really productive research year. Doing an HHMI fellowship or whatever will catch some programs' attention no matter where you go to med school. Plus the intensity of away rotations can make really strong students stand out at programs that might not be as interested in them on paper.

I just looked at US News 70-80. Those schools had good matches this year, including UCSF, USC, Mayo, Penn, etc. I don't think you'd see that a lot in many other specialties. I guess taking a year off to do a competitive research fellowship isn't exactly "easier" than in IM, but I guess what I mean is that it may be a clearer path.
 
littlecow said:
Any examples?
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this isn't new...but the students that matched at top IM programs that were not AOA or didn't have crazy high step 1 scores stood out in other ways i.e. leadership, research, volunteer work, mentorship (connections) and this sort of "formula" isn't limited to IM...it happens in other specialties every year....
 
naijacardriodoc said:
this isn't new...but the students that matched at top IM programs that were not AOA or didn't have crazy high step 1 scores stood out in other ways i.e. leadership, research, volunteer work, mentorship (connections) and this sort of "formula" isn't limited to IM...it happens in other specialties every year....
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Yes and no. Top programs already have step one screens , so people are already filtered at that level. Then student leadership and volunteering have to be truely impressive to catch someone’s eye at these programs . Connections and nepotism always help.
Plus exceptions do not constitute the rule. Just because one person got an interview and landed a position above where their stats would say doesn’t mean that every applicant will.
 
Matching top tier IM requires at least 3 of the following: 240+ steps, AOA, significant research experience, graduate of top 25 medical school, away rotation at site with excellent letters/evals.

2 of these may get you an interview but 3 gives you a solid shot at actually matching.
 
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naijacardriodoc said:
it’s still possible to match at a top IM program even without all of those things...happens every year
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Can lightening strike twice at the same spot - happens but how likely is it? 🙂

there are other factors that are considered but have to make through all the filters to get to someone even read your application. I should not have said impossible - it is next to impossible if you don't have any of the above mentioned things
 
littlecow said:
User "3AA" was saying it's possible to match a top residency without High Step, AOA, and substantial research and coming from a less competitive school. MGH taking some people from less competitive schools doesn't mean those people didn't have High Step, AOA, and substantial research.
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At least one of the schools from which MGH accepted an applicant does not have AOA, which I believe was the original question.
 
I definitely think AOA is a huge boost but probably not absolutely essential if you have something else that's unique on your application or higher Step scores to compensate. I passed my IM clerkship due to my shelf score and was told by some that a pass in IM was a huge red flag and that I wouldn't receive top interviews because of this. I applied to all the places I wanted to go, interviewed at lots of top 20 programs and ended up matching into one most consider top 5 from a low tier medical school. Do I think I would have received less top 20 interviews if I was not AOA? Most definitely. But I think I would have still received some. If you are set on a top program, just shell out the money and apply to the ones you could legitimately see yourself wanting to go (and think you realistically have a shot at). With some mid-tiers and low-tiers as well of course.
 
Serious question, what role does being URM play into this equation?
 
libertyyne said:
Yes and no. Top programs already have step one screens , so people are already filtered at that level. Then student leadership and volunteering have to be truely impressive to catch someone’s eye at these programs . Connections and nepotism always help.
Plus exceptions do not constitute the rule. Just because one person got an interview and landed a position above where their stats would say doesn’t mean that every applicant will.
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they have "screens"...many programs don't always follow these screens even if they tell you that they do....I'm not saying it's an exception or the rule...I'm just saying it more prevalent than sdn makes it out to be....
 
CanIMakeIt said:
Can lightening strike twice at the same spot - happens but how likely is it? 🙂

there are other factors that are considered but have to make through all the filters to get to someone even read your application. I should not have said impossible - it is next to impossible if you don't have any of the above mentioned things
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fair. my point is that it happens more often than you would think or than this website makes it seem
 
naijacardriodoc said:
fair. my point is that it happens more often than you would think or than this website makes it seem
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naijacardriodoc said:
they have "screens"...many programs don't always follow these screens even if they tell you that they do....I'm not saying it's an exception or the rule...I'm just saying it more prevalent than sdn makes it out to be....
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Not sure how you are coming to that conclusion when these programs consistently have high step medians and usually are filled with t20 folks.
 
libertyyne said:
Yes and no. Top programs already have step one screens , so people are already filtered at that level. Then student leadership and volunteering have to be truely impressive to catch someone’s eye at these programs . Connections and nepotism always help.
Plus exceptions do not constitute the rule. Just because one person got an interview and landed a position above where their stats would say doesn’t mean that every applicant will.
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naijacardriodoc said:
they have "screens"...many programs don't always follow these screens even if they tell you that they do....I'm not saying it's an exception or the rule...I'm just saying it more prevalent than sdn makes it out to be....
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I know we're talking about IM here specifically but in many of the small, competitive surgical specialties, do not underestimate the power of away rotations or having someone make a call for you. While the Step 1 screens might be higher (230-240), having someone make a call for you might be the difference between having your app looked at versus being put in the reject pile. Not sure how prevalent this is in IM since the specialty is bigger and not everyone knows everyone.
 
It's always possible. Never discount yourself. It doesn't mean it's easy. A lot of the top programs fill their spots with students from their peer schools. They already have their pick of students from top schools with top Step 1 scores. You have to make a compelling case for why they should choose you. While it's not frequent, you always seen a few students from lower ranked/unranked schools at these top programs. So whatever they did obviously worked for them - you can make it too if you make your story work for you.
 
Applied to IM this cycle from a low tier MD. Steps 250+/270+, no AOA, 2 pubs (case reports), ok ECs, great LORs - did not get many invites from top programs. This was like this for rest of my class applying IM too - the only ones that matched at top were AOA.

For top IM programs from low tier MD you need good scores AND either AOA OR significant research. Top IM is VERY competitive.
 
PugsAndHugs said:
Applied to IM this cycle from a low tier MD. Steps 250+/270+, no AOA, 2 pubs (case reports), ok ECs, great LORs - did not get many invites from top programs. This was like this for rest of my class applying IM too - the only ones that matched at top were AOA.

For top IM programs from low tier MD you need good scores AND either AOA OR significant research. Top IM is VERY competitive.
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Another example why AOA is critical. Looks like AOA is even more important than Step because a 240/AOA seems to have better chance with top programs than 260/no AOA. With Step 1 P/F, AOA is necessary
 
Lawper said:
Another example why AOA is critical. Looks like AOA is even more important than Step because a 240/AOA seems to have better chance with top programs than 260/no AOA. With Step 1 P/F, AOA is necessary
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What's wild too is that all the top schools are severing ties with AOA citing racial discrepancies in class selection. My school is most likely going to eliminate it this year. I somehow feel like this only advantages applicants from top schools anyways. If no one gets AOA, then it's almost like everyone has AOA. Or rather, not having AOA is not a mark against you anymore.
 
libertyyne said:
lol, you keep saying it happens often, but without much to back that up. OK keep on believing.
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if you’re at any reputable md program and keep your ear to the ground you would know these sort of things do happen...What I’m saying isn’t new...and obviously it isn’t something a lot of PDs would openly admit to you...but many PDs know it happens across the board/across specialties...it’s obvious you don’t have a close relationship with any PDs or anyone that would make these types of decisions about applicants :-/

so keep holding on to your data 😉
 
liquidcrawler said:
What's wild too is that all the top schools are severing ties with AOA citing racial discrepancies in class selection. My school is most likely going to eliminate it this year. I somehow feel like this only advantages applicants from top schools anyways. If no one gets AOA, then it's almost like everyone has AOA. Or rather, not having AOA is not a mark against you anymore.
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I'm not sure why top schools have AOA in the first place if school name and resources are enough to match into top programs.
 
naijacardriodoc said:
this isn't new...but the students that matched at top IM programs that were not AOA or didn't have crazy high step 1 scores stood out in other ways i.e. leadership, research, volunteer work, mentorship (connections) and this sort of "formula" isn't limited to IM...it happens in other specialties every year....
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This happens a lot more in other smaller fields than IM from my experience. In some cases, for the non-AOA student from a low tier med school, if you have extensive research and/or connections, it can be "easier" to get a top surg subspecialty match than a top IM one. At least from low tier med schools, many I know with average scores have broke into elite places in other fields thanks to research+connections, but this is very rare in IM. Similarly, once you apply to the most competitive fellowships within IM (cardiology, GI, heme/onc), the research and connections can more easily make up for your residency prestige and get you into "higher" programs that you did for IM. For IM, there are only 2 cases I commonly see that break into the most competitive programs without AOA/Step: Top tier schools or URM, and the former is a bigger impact than the latter (meaning more top invites).
 
7331poas said:
Serious question, what role does being URM play into this equation?
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It depends on the institution. Some institutions care more about fit and getting the work done, and less so about diversity. The URMs I know who matched at top programs (including IM) were strong applicants regardless. A URM friend matched at MGH IM while coming from a low-tier school, but she was AOA, Step 1 >255, Step 2 >270, and with some research. Some of my very strong/stellar URMs (black and Hispanic) colleagues had a tough time getting interviews at the so-called top 10, but they still matched at fine programs. So a borderline or merely good URM from a low-tier school has a slim chance at the top 5-10 IM programs.
 
Cyal said:
It depends on the institution. Some institutions care more about fit and getting the work done, and less so about diversity. The URMs I know who matched at top programs (including IM) were strong applicants regardless. A URM friend matched at MGH IM while coming from a low-tier school, but she was AOA, Step 1 >255, Step 2 >270, and with some research. Some of my very strong/stellar URMs (black and Hispanic) colleagues had a tough time getting interviews at the so-called top 10, but they still matched at fine programs. So a borderline or merely good URM from a low-tier school has a slim chance at the top 5-10 IM programs.
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I'm betting her AOA and experiences played a major role although Steps definitely helped. I'm really beginning to think Steps are overrated and things like AOA, school name, unique experiences, research and clinical grades matter a lot more
 
Cyal said:
It depends on the institution. Some institutions care more about fit and getting the work done, and less so about diversity. The URMs I know who matched at top programs (including IM) were strong applicants regardless. A URM friend matched at MGH IM while coming from a low-tier school, but she was AOA, Step 1 >255, Step 2 >270, and with some research. Some of my very strong/stellar URMs (black and Hispanic) colleagues had a tough time getting interviews at the so-called top 10, but they still matched at fine programs. So a borderline or merely good URM from a low-tier school has a slim chance at the top 5-10 IM programs.
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Huh this was not my experience at all. Know a guy who matched a top 5 program with <220 step 1. He had some research but nothing crazy. Decent ECs but once again nothing truly outstanding. Likewise knew another guy with 230s, 230s steps, no research, limited ECs who had some top 10 interviews.

Edit: from mid tier state school
 
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bobjonesbob said:
Huh this was not my experience at all. Know a guy who matched a top 5 program with <220 step 1. He had some research but nothing crazy. Decent ECs but once again nothing truly outstanding. Likewise knew another guy with 230s, 230s steps, no research, limited ECs who had some top 10 interviews.
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What tier school did they come from?
 
naijacardriodoc said:
it’s still possible to match at a top IM program even without all of those things...happens every year
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Possible? Yes. Pulling that off from a low-tier school? Highly unlikely.

The very top of IM is an old boys club. They take a lot of their own and other students from similar caliber institutions. If you want to make it to Top 20/25 IM coming from a school where the name isn't going to help, you absolutely need to knock it out of the park with your application - excellent Step scores, +/- AOA, good research, honors in IM, great letters, etc.
 
Lawper said:
Another example why AOA is critical. Looks like AOA is even more important than Step because a 240/AOA seems to have better chance with top programs than 260/no AOA. With Step 1 P/F, AOA is necessary
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Would it be a disadvantage going to a school that does not offer AOA? (T30)
 
Is there a consensus list of T20/25/30 IM programs? DO applicants wants to know where they can save the application fee from.
 
ExtraRoughWheatBread said:
Would it be a disadvantage going to a school that does not offer AOA? (T30)
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You'd need to check with your school advisers on that and see how the match lists fared on IM. I think T30 is good enough but not entirely sure.

Since your school doesn't have AOA, other things matter but that's something your school would know more.
 
Lawper said:
You'd need to check with your school advisers on that and see how the match lists fared on IM. I think T30 is good enough but not entirely sure.

Since your school doesn't have AOA, other things matter but that's something your school would know more.
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idk how a school would be able to answer that. A better person to ask would be a PD at one of these top IM programs how they approach a student whose school does not report AOA.
 
7331poas said:
idk how a school would be able to answer that. A better person to ask would be a PD at one of these top IM programs how they approach a student whose school does not report AOA.
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Because there are likely graduates who matched at Top IM and the school knows how those graduates did in school.
 
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