Abusing Zyprexa?

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Poety2

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Hello all!

Ok, so I have a patient that wants "early" refills on zyprexa, has Rx problem anyway - I know about seroquel, but I could see the potential of zyprexa since its sedating - has anyone ever seen this before as well?

btw - I said she needs to schedule with me before I fill again :scared:

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Eh? What's going on with Seroquel?
 
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zyprexa makes people fat. who wants to take that?
 
Hello all!

Ok, so I have a patient that wants "early" refills on zyprexa, has Rx problem anyway - I know about seroquel, but I could see the potential of zyprexa since its sedating - has anyone ever seen this before as well?

btw - I said she needs to schedule with me before I fill again :scared:

Maybe it's her way of telling you that the dose you're prescribing isn't high enough--assuming this is someone who NEEDS an antipsychotic, and maybe is a little short on insight and communication skills.
Alternatively, may just be someone who "needs" a pill to cope, and is having increased stressors. Either way, inviting her to come in and talk about WHY she needs it is the right thing to do.
 
I don't know why someone would abuse olanzapine, if this truly is the case.

However lets look at some possible reasons.

1-some patients self medicate in a manner where there is no rhyme or reason. They feel that simply putting pills in their mouth & swallowing them will accomplish something. E.g. I had a patient who was severely depressed & started taking aspirin, not for suicide but because he was hoping to get something--anything positive from it for his mood.

2-olanzapine while it is not known to be addictive or have narcotic properties may be doing something in this patient that is very rare that most doctors did not consider. While Zyprexa has been on the market for a relatively long time (vs the other atypicals) a doctor must always keep an open mind to a possible new & undocumented effect. Heck if this is the case you can publish a paper on it.

3-olanzapine has antihistaminic properties--which is one of the reasons for its sedative & weight gain mechanisms.

The probable reason why quietapine has a street value is its antihistaminic properties. The following is documented--antihistamines when mixed with opioids heightens & lengthens the high, and it does so in a manner that is cost effective--so the drug abuser doesn't have to spend as much on the opioid.

Olanzapine also has antihistaminic properties, so perhaps it is being abused in this manner as well.

The good news is that for some reason, the opioid drug abusing population hasn't caught on that its the anti-histamine heigtening the high. If that were the case they'd just buy benadryl. I think the drug abusing population has come up with an urban myth that because quietapine is a psyche med, that may have something to do with it. Add to the problem that several doctors prescribe it quite liberally and do not check to see if the patient's complaints really are from a substance abuse etiology and not a true anxiety do etiology, and the confusion of treating someone with a true dual diagnosis.

IMHO, quietapine should not be used as a first line atypical unless the patient has movement disorders, and should not be used in patients with substance abuse or good access to substance abusers. It has much more side effects vs Risperidone, Ziprasidone & Aripiprazole. Risperidone & Ziprasidone has been found to be more efficacious than Quietapine in the CATIE trial, and Ziprasidone is found to be much more effective in higher doses than used in the CATIE trial.

AT the rescue mission in the community where I work, if a patient has quietapine on them--even if that person does not abuse it or has no intention to sell it, others at the rescue mission will attempt to steal it from those patients. Add to the problem, a homeless person, even with no intention of abusing seroquel will have the temptation to sell it since they are in need of $$$.
 
...IMHO, quietapine should not be used as a first line atypical unless the patient has movement disorders, and should not be used in patients with substance abuse or good access to substance abusers. ...
I was liking your post until I got to the last half of this sentence. You make a good case for why quetiapine has some cachet on the streets, and I also agree with minimizing its use in the homeless population, mainly because of the expense. However, I think I'm objecting to the absolutism above because you generalize so widely about "substance abusers" as a class, as though they all fit into one mold. (I guess this is hitting a sore point, because I'm feeling a bit revved by this right now.)

Just to keep this short, it is clear from your post that quetiapine has a special value for opiate addicts, and one might justify some rational limitations on medication utilization on that basis. However, for a tweaking methamphetamine user with racing thoughts, hypervigilance, and insomnia, that low dose of seroquel might be the best possible single medication in my formulary. I'd just hate for that patient to get put on something that might make them more akathestic because a well-meaning doc out there had read that quetiapine "should not be used in patients with substance abuse".

Just take this as my plea to evaluate what's really going on with each patient--as with Poety's original patient, there are lots of potential explanations, and we should really take the time to work it out. (And please, please, please DON'T diagnose people with "polysubstance abuse" just because they've used more than one drug--OK?)
 
Like OPD mentioned, there could be myriad reasons why someone would want additional Zyprexa, including an actual efficacious effect that the patient is looking to enhance or continue.

I work in NYC, so I know that most drugs here, including fluoxetine, have a street value. So I think that one cannot automatically assume that "street value" = abusable or potential for physiologic dependence.

In the jail in which I work, we're not supposed to rx seroquel, benzos, or even trazodone. Of course, olanzapine is allowed. While I was never given a good explanation as to the thinking on trazodone, the consensus seems to be the simple fact that any drug with a hypnotic effect is valued and has the potential to have problems. The solution to this? Seems to be mirtazapine - funny enough.

In any event, just wanted to throw the general and simple "hypnotic" comment out there, since it does play a large part in street value.
 
And please, please, please DON'T diagnose people with "polysubstance abuse" just because they've used more than one drug--OK?


So... how exactly should I be diagnosing polysubstance abuse/dependance? Being in the state hospital for the past three months has made me pretty familiar with the phrase.
 
So... how exactly should I be diagnosing polysubstance abuse/dependance? Being in the state hospital for the past three months has made me pretty familiar with the phrase.

From Summary of Practice-Relevant
Changes to the DSM-IV-TR


Clarification of concept of Polysubstance Dependence

It is not uncommon for clinicians to inappropriately use the term “Polysubstance Dependence” to refer the heavy drug users who are dependent on a number of different types of substances. Instead, multiple co-morbid diagnoses of Substance Dependence (one for each class that the person is dependent on) should be given. For example, an individual who smokes crack several times a week, injects heroin daily, and smokes several joints a day would receive three diagnoses: Crack Dependence, Heroin Dependence, and Marijuana Dependence and not a diagnosis of Polysubstance Dependence. Polysubstance Dependence should be used only in those clinical situations where the pattern of multiple drug use is such that it fail to meet the criteria for Dependence on any one class of drug. In such settings, the only way to assign a diagnosis of Dependence is to consider all the substances that the person uses taken together as a whole. To clarify the appropriate use of this diagnosis, the text for Polysubstance Dependence was revised to provide examples of situations in which this diagnosis might apply. In making these revisions, however, it became clear that more than one interpretation of how to apply the Polysubstance Dependence rule is possible. One interpretation (operationalized in the Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV (SCID) [19]), focuses on periods of indiscriminant use of a variety of different substances. Another interpretation is analogous to the concept of “mixed personality disorder,” i.e., one or two dependence criteria are met for a single class of drug but full criteria for Dependence are only met when the drug classes are grouped together as a whole. Since both interpretations are covered by the construct of Polysubstance Dependence, the revised text includes elements of both as follows:

“For example, a diagnosis of Polysubstance Dependence would apply to an individual who, during the same 12-month period, missed work because of his heavy use of alcohol, continued to use cocaine despite experiencing severe depressions after heavy nights of consumption, and was repeatedly unable to stay within his self-imposed limits regarding his use of codeine. In this instance, although the problems associated with the use of any one substance were not pervasive enough to justify a diagnosis of Dependence, his overall use of substances significantly impaired his functioning and thus warrants a diagnosis of Dependence on the substances as a group. Such a pattern might be observed, for example, in a setting where substance use was highly prevalent, but where the drugs of choice changed frequently. For those situations in which there is a pattern of problems associated with multiple drugs and the criteria are met for more than one specific Substance-Related Disorder (e.g., Cocaine Dependence, Alcohol Dependence, and Cannabis Dependence), each diagnosis should be made.”
 
It is also my understanding, and remember this is coming from a mere med student, that there's no DSM-IV-TR dx of "polysubstance abuse."

If the patient uses drugs to the point of abuse, list each dx separately: cocaine abuse, marijuana abuse, etc.

If a substance is used but does not qualify as abuse or dependence, then just describe it appropriately in the social history.
 
It is also my understanding, and remember this is coming from a mere med student, that there's no DSM-IV-TR dx of "polysubstance abuse."

If the patient uses drugs to the point of abuse, list each dx separately: cocaine abuse, marijuana abuse, etc.

If a substance is used but does not qualify as abuse or dependence, then just describe it appropriately in the social history.

👍 You get an "A", my son. 🙂
 
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Maybe this info has caught on to my patients out here in "the sticks", because we just don't see patients abusing Seroquel. I have been starting to see it used at given TID and QID at low doses for anxiety and irritablity in patients that have a history of benzo or alcohol abuse. I've tried it myself and have had good results with compliance, no "lost scripts".

And the bit about "polysubstance abuse"... folks mis-speak all the time. Think about the wasteland that is Axis IV. People just free form stuff there all the time. How often have you seen "chronic mental illness" or "serious health problems" listed there?
 
It is also my understanding, and remember this is coming from a mere med student, that there's no DSM-IV-TR dx of "polysubstance abuse."

If the patient uses drugs to the point of abuse, list each dx separately: cocaine abuse, marijuana abuse, etc.

If a substance is used but does not qualify as abuse or dependence, then just describe it appropriately in the social history.


If an illegal substance is used, what do you call it? It seems like illicit drug use is always called "abuse."
 
If an illegal substance is used, what do you call it? It seems like illicit drug use is always called "abuse."

Abuse requires one or more of the following: failure to fulfill major obligations, legal consequences, recurrent use in physically hazardous situations, or continued use despite social/interpersonal problems.

You abuse heroin if you've been arrested for possession, or you've lost your job, or your spouse left you, etc., *and* you don't meet the criteria for dependence.

But if you injected heroin a few times decades ago, and don't have any of the above, then you've used an illegal substance. It's important history. But why should a diagnosis be made?

If "legality" was the issue, wouldn't we be giving countless people who have tried marijuana meaningless Axis I diagnoses? Not that marijuana can't be serious, but you know what I mean.
 
what if I injected heroin a few times, a few minutes ago? Casual drug use, abuse, dependence, or just a guy who knows how to party:laugh:?

Use= on rare occassion

Abuse= social/legal problems

Dependence= "have to" use to feel "normal"

Guy who knows how to party= :hardy:

(i am sooo good at teaching, aren't I?)
 
Yeah, but the catch-22 here is that is a patient is in your office (presumably a psychiatry office) and is describing "use;" well...something's probably wrong with that picture. I think 99/100 psychiatrists will slap you with an "abuse" at that point...or more.
 
Do I really need to remind some of you that, uh, YES, pts do minimize their EtOH/crack use/habit? This is why Sazi is absolutely correct.
 
So... how exactly should I be diagnosing polysubstance abuse/dependance? Being in the state hospital for the past three months has made me pretty familiar with the phrase.

There is no polysubstance "abuse" its 1. they either meet criteria for dependence on more than one substance (ie, cocaine dependent and heroin dependent, but they use say, seroquel to come off the cocaine and marijuana to get the day started, and alcohol when available (bordering dependence) - this would be "polysubstance dependence"

And to get back to the original post - so she doesn't "know" where the pills are 🙄😕, shes 8 days early, and has multiple refills by other physicians waiting at pharmacy - I asked her to fill one of those first.

OPD, as you said, I knew she didn't "need' it, in fact, with her elevated lipids we've been trying to get her off of it and she refuses - which is odd too. I'm bringing her in next week to discuss all this - shes an adamant denier of drugs of abuse with + UDS 😱
 
However, I think I'm objecting to the absolutism above because you generalize so widely about "substance abusers" as a class, as though they all fit into one mold. (I guess this is hitting a sore point, because I'm feeling a bit revved by this right now.)

I don't object to your objections. These particular opinions we have are on an edge of psychiatry where there is litttle evidence based practice.

I'm basing my opinion based on efficacy of Seroqeul (via the CATIE trial) & the issues I'm facing with giving it to the homeless population. The knowledge of its use for non-therapeutic uses may also vary between our geographic locations.

At least where I'm at, if I prescribe quietapine to a homeless person, & that homeless person wants more of it, I still do not feel confident that I have nailed down their diagnosis. At the local rescue mission, quietapine is the medication all the people living there coach the others to get. They coach each other on quite a few things such as the best day to come to the ER faking suicide sx. Based on Seroquel's low efficacy (compared vs other atypicals) & the above I mentioned, I put it low on my list for therapy for schizophrenia among other reasons (side effects, its not really cheaper vs the other meds, its large--> higher likelihood of esophagitis, lack of other delivery methods). The way I see it, given what I mentioned, and considering I got a choice of several other atypicals, I tend to try seroquel not as a first atypical.

Quietapine is pretty much the only atypical I've prescribed where the patients just happen to "lose it" or "my dog ate it" or "I accidently flushed it down the toilet". Not suprisingly, the same seems to always happen with benzos & opioids, but never with the other psychotropics. I don't even favor it among my non-drug abusing, non homeless patients because those even on it getting therapeutic benefit all complain about the weight gain & sedation. I will though consider Seroquel 1st in the situations I mentioned in my previous post.

Anyways, I'm happy to hear those that disagree. This particular area is one where I feel that debate is healthy given the lack of standards.
 
I've had a number of patients who use Zprexa as a hypnotic, and certainly I've had some patients who use it very much like Diazepam for it's sedative properties to deal with aggitation etc... Also, it does have a street value for people who use a lot of illicits who start to get a little paranoid and take Zyprexa to help them deal with that...
 
This goes to the concept of giving PRN antipsychotics to those who are hallucinating or otherwise experiencing psychotic symptoms (including self medication). In short, giving an antipsychotic PRN is the correct decision for the wrong reasons.
 
This goes to the concept of giving PRN antipsychotics to those who are hallucinating or otherwise experiencing psychotic symptoms (including self medication). In short, giving an antipsychotic PRN is the correct decision for the wrong reasons.

I'm a little confused by this. What exactly are the wrong reasons, Sazi?
 
You can't really expect an antipsychotic to reach its antipsychotic efficacy with a single dose. Naturally, this depends on the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of the particular neuroleptic, but one might not expect a therapeutic effect for days to weeks. Administering the neuroleptic, however, can be clinically useful, however, since you are giving what used to be called a "major tranquilizer." This harkens to the older days of pharmacology whereby the patient receives a sedating and neuroleptizing dose of a medication with the expressed purpose of having a more tolerable subjective experience of symptom exacerbation.
 
I've had a number of patients who use Zprexa as a hypnotic, and certainly I've had some patients who use it very much like Diazepam for it's sedative properties to deal with aggitation etc... Also, it does have a street value for people who use a lot of illicits who start to get a little paranoid and take Zyprexa to help them deal with that...

This a false analogy. It may be used for the sedating properties but one should not be making a direct comparison to Diazepam due to entirely different mechanisms of action.
 
Hello all!

Ok, so I have a patient that wants "early" refills on zyprexa, has Rx problem anyway - I know about seroquel, but I could see the potential of zyprexa since its sedating - has anyone ever seen this before as well?

btw - I said she needs to schedule with me before I fill again :scared:

Being on both sides of the fence, it is so highly frustrating to the sufferer at the mercy of stigmatization. A RX problem occurs solely because symptoms are unbearable and an individuals attempt to relieve. If ones leg was blown half off, one would take anything in their immediate surroundings to ease suffering. Clearly, regardless of this individuals hx of rx misuse- This individual is in pain-significant at that or they would not have such an urgency to abuse/misuse rx in the past - and if that to be the case presently- said individual would only be taking more to achieve some sort of baseline. There is always a reason for rx abuse. It is never purely "recreational" even if that are an additional aspect. Rx abuse is always coupled with a certain need and discomfort. The stigma is still so ever-present and frustrates - those seeking help cannot find it because of awful stigma and the egoic psych who thinks they are getting one pulled over on them. See each person as an individual. Whatever the case may be in this instance the individual is suffering. It is not your job to judge or discern them if they are attempting to self-manage- as the urgency doesnt allow one to wait the allotted one per month. See this person as a human being in pain- That is all. No need for extraneous judgement. As in both instances- if they are needing an early refill due to overuse or not - the need for more is present solely because of suffering- and it is your job to assist in easing that.
 
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