Academic general surgery programs

[chichimoochichi]

A little bit about myself. I am a soon to be 4th year medical student at a unranked midwest school. I have a high 230s Step 1 score, top 25% of class, all honors in 3rd year except IM, 2 pubs both in surgery and 10 poster presentations at local and national conferences(ACS Clinical Congress, DDW). My goal is to go to an academic university program on the west or east coast, preferably in a larger city. I understand that top tier academic general surgery programs are very competitive even for anyone with a 240+ Step 1 and more publications than I. But what kind of shot do I have at a reputable top tier university general surgery program such as UCSF, UCLA, Johns Hopkins, B&W, and MGH? Or should I be targeting more mid-tier university programs?

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[operaman]

Not sure about your chances, but I would put a plug in for taking CK early if you can crush it and possibly trying to get a couple more pubs before ERAS hits. Additional pubs may not be accepted in time, but you would at least have them down as 'submitted' and could update programs later during interviews if they get accepted.

If you could structure your first 3 months of fourth year to be Research (and CK), home sub-i, and away sub-i at one of those reaches -- in that order -- you could substantially improve your chances.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

A bit more now that I'm fully awake:

1. If your goal is academics and a "top" program, while I can understand the desire to be coastal or in the NE...you say you're at an unranked midwestern state school. Don't underestimate the midwestern programs, especially Wisconsin, Northwestern, and Michigan. They are really great programs with a lot of positive momentum right now and are likely to be more familiar with your school and its grads. There are also a number of other midwestern programs that are very good for academics (just probably not quite in the same "tier" as above) - Minnesota, Mayo, Case, OSU, Indiana, Iowa, U Chicago.

2. LORs. You didn't mention anything about these in your initial post. I think at the upper level, these play a big big role and are often underestimated. This would actually be the biggest reason I would recommend you do an away rotation would be to try and get a LOR from a big name. This can get tough because you need to not just do an away rotation, but do an away rotation on the "right" service. A lot of times this isn't available for away rotators since the home institution students gobble up these highly desirable rotations.

3. Agree with Step II early.

4. Get all your app stuff in on time.

5. Re: Applications. Based on what you've told us, I think your ultimate goal should be to go on about a dozen interviews. Among those, 3-4 should be at "top" programs (presuming you get interview offers from them), 6-7 at "mid-range" programs, and 2-3 at "safety" programs. If you've gotten strong vibes from your home program you can skew that ratio a little more towards the top end. If you have more time/money/inclination and want to go on more interviews than ~12, then add more to the top end side. Only concern I would have is if you are slightly below average numbers for the top programs - you might get a lot of interview love from them but ultimately be in the middle of their rank lists. So if you only interview at the top 10 programs, there is a small but not insignificant chance of falling through the cracks and going unmatched.

 

[doc05]

those sort of programs are definitely possible for you, but coming from an "unranked" midwestern school, the pedigree issue will be a real disadvantage.

there are some very very good academic programs in the midwest and I'd venture to guess some of your attendings may know people at these places. remember that "who you know" is more likely to get you a spot somewhere, and for that reason you should target places where your mentors have friends.

good luck!!

 

[bdc142]

BUmping this thread a bit...


SouthernSurgeon, can you give us a bit of an idea about why OP is "slightly below the average number of top programs"?
What are these ranges you are talking about? And what exactly are the mid-tier and high-tier programs?

(I have done some extensive research on this, but the most I ever found was a 2013 JAMA surgery paper and those 'top 20' threads...)

Cheers

 

[bdc142]

Thanks for the response SouthernSurgeon!

So would you say that in your experience as a reviewer -- for at least step 1....

240-250 = minimum for 'top programs' or solid for 'mid programs'
250+ = solid for the 'top programs'

 

[mikeGR]

There is not a lot of available data on the averages for these programs.

I would say the OP is slightly below the average at top programs because I'm at a top program and I've reviewed apps for the past couple of years. You can take that for what it's worth but it's about all I can say.

So I can't really give you publicly available data like the NRMP charting outcomes.

But I can say as at least a couple of data points that have been shared here through the years:

-6 years ago Mt Sinai claimed a >240 average for interviewed candidate
-4?ish years ago UCLA claimed a >250 average for their current residents

FWIW MGH quoted 250 average for current residents few yrs ago.

 

[addy]

Yup probably about right. But again going to my point about averages - I interviewed a guy a couple of years ago that I loved and was hoping we would match and he ended up at MGH...I want to say his step 1 was sub 230 or right around there.

What was it about him that wanted you (and clearly MGH) to match him? Also, any chance you remember anything else about his application? Class rank, research, LORs, etc?

EDIT: I ask bc my Step 1 is 237 and want to do academic general surgery...so, it'd be nice to know if there's anything I can do to improve my chances (the first two years didn't bode well for me vis-a-vis class rank/grades.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

What was it about him that wanted you (and clearly MGH) to match him? Also, any chance you remember anything else about his application? Class rank, research, LORs, etc?

EDIT: I ask bc my Step 1 is 237 and want to do academic general surgery...so, it'd be nice to know if there's anything I can do to improve my chances (the first two years didn't bode well for me vis-a-vis class rank/grades.

You don't have to go to a MGH or Hopkins to go into academic surgery. Does it help? Sure, but you can get there from mid-tier programs as well.

 

[addy]

You don't have to go to a MGH or Hopkins to go into academic surgery. Does it help? Sure, but you can get there from mid-tier programs as well.

Yeah, I totally agree. I guess the thing is, I have never cared about prestige so i always aimed and subsequently went to the cheapest schools I could afford. As a result I had to work harder than the "big name" kids in my class to get to where I was (pretty average intelligence dude). I think I would like to train at a bigger name and am just worried that I'll be tired of always having to prove myself and feel too run down to really continue focusing on research. Which would obviously mean that I could choose PP/money over research not bc of potential but because of just...being tired of having to prove myself. Does that make sense? probably not. But either way, that's kinda where my head's at with regards to trying to get into the best academic residency that I can.

 

[bluv1212]

I've been lurking, and I was wondering what middle tier programs are known to have great academic programs/ were prominent in research?