Academic salary negotiation

[Doc1401]

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Is there any way to negotiate a higher salary in academics? Will doing a fellowship guarantee a higher starting salary? I am wondering how to approach a renowned academic institution and not be offered the 160-180 thousand dollar starting salary. I keep being told that I can moonlight on weekends or do private practice on the side but where will the time for my family come from? I have large loans but want to work in a prestigious environment. I am also concerned if I work for a private hospital that I will lose academic momentum

 

[pathslides]

Is there any way to negotiate a higher salary in academics? Will doing a fellowship guarantee a higher starting salary? I am wondering how to approach a renowned academic institution and not be offered the 160-180 thousand dollar starting salary. I keep being told that I can moonlight on weekends or do private practice on the side but where will the time for my family come from? I have large loans but want to work in a prestigious environment. I am also concerned if I work for a private hospital that I will lose academic momentum

Not my field but similar situation within my field. Big name academics hardly negotiate and use "prestige" as the reason to offer so little. People continue to flock to them for said prestige. Maybe your field differs, but Of the peeps in my field that I know and from my own interview expierences, I haven't heard of successful salary negotiations at the big institutions. Personally, I find academics/hospital prestige highly overated and if I had a lot of loans I would just do private practice.

 

[WisNeuro]

Seems to be the way things work. I thought about an academic career once. The, at least 25% pay reduction, quickly diminished those thoughts. I'm content with publishing here and there using data gathered in the course of routine clinical care these days.

 

[dl2dp2]

Is there any way to negotiate a higher salary in academics? Will doing a fellowship guarantee a higher starting salary? I am wondering how to approach a renowned academic institution and not be offered the 160-180 thousand dollar starting salary. I keep being told that I can moonlight on weekends or do private practice on the side but where will the time for my family come from? I have large loans but want to work in a prestigious environment. I am also concerned if I work for a private hospital that I will lose academic momentum

I'm confused by your post. What are you looking for exactly by getting a job in a "renowned institution"?

 

[Doc1401]

I'm confused by your post. What are you looking for exactly by getting a job in a "renowned institution"?

I think you are right to be confused because it is definitely a confusing feeling. There is something about the fact that I just spent so many years in undergrad, med school, residency and it will all come to an end in private practice. It is almost like I want to keep striving to the next level and do clinical/research work at the highest quality. Being recognized as a major contributor to the field....
I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way

 

[clausewitz2]

I think you are right to be confused because it is definitely a confusing feeling. There is something about the fact that I just spent so many years in undergrad, med school, residency and it will all come to an end in private practice. It is almost like I want to keep striving to the next level and do clinical/research work at the highest quality. Being recognized as a major contributor to the field....
I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way

You aren't the only one who feels that way. In fact, it's so common, there are dozens of equally qualified candidates who are interested in whatever job doing that too can find at a given renowned center, and so the one salary offer you get will reflect the reserve salary of the person with the lowest requirements.

Also y'know, if you are mostly full time research you are funding your salary from grants, not from a lot of clinical production, which are not trivial to get.

 

[Gavanshir]

I think you are right to be confused because it is definitely a confusing feeling. There is something about the fact that I just spent so many years in undergrad, med school, residency and it will all come to an end in private practice. It is almost like I want to keep striving to the next level and do clinical/research work at the highest quality. Being recognized as a major contributor to the field....
I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way

I feel ya. I'm PGY-2 and already dreading being in your shoes. This is why I'm hoping to obtain some kind of part-time hospital-based work so that I can stay involved with teaching residents/medical students, going to grand rounds, etc. without completely isolating myself in PP.

 

[Doc1401]

Is the prestige of academic work worth the pay cut? I also realize that this pay cut also involves publication pressure, teaching, politics, which is all very time consuming and often does not leave time to explore activities outside of medicine

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Is the prestige of academic work worth the pay cut?

That is a question that can only be answered by the person to whom it applies.

My experience though is that personal intrinsic passion for academics is far more important than extrinsic pay or prestige for those who choose to commit themselves to that kind of career.

There's a lot of middle ground though for "sorta academic" folks (like me)--teaching, training, patient care in less well-known places, etc. Never gonna see my name in Science or Nature, but I hang up my briefcase when I get home at night and can watch football and sip my scotch without worrying about the next grant or paper.

 

[clausewitz2]

There's a lot of middle ground though for "sorta academic" folks (like me)--teaching, training, patient care in less well-known places, etc. Never gonna see my name in Science or Nature, but I hang up my briefcase when I get home at night and can watch football and sip my scotch without worrying about the next grant or paper.

I wanna be that guy who shows up to lab meetings and contributes a figure to a paper and gets to be fifth author on the paper (y'know, the one right before the position for whoever's grant paid for the whole shebang). I want to keep getting exposed to new ideas and new thinking about the field, but the grant treadmill seems like a really excellent way to be really miserable for a really long time.

 

[WisNeuro]

Is the prestige of academic work worth the pay cut? I also realize that this pay cut also involves publication pressure, teaching, politics, which is all very time consuming and often does not leave time to explore activities outside of medicine

Depends on the person. Some people are very fulfilled by it. Most of my purely academic colleagues work far more hours, for far less pay, and deal with more bureaucracy and red tape than I do on a regular basis. But, some of them absolutely love it. Not me, I'll take the higher pay and 40 hours or less a week. I already did my charity time in the public sector.

 

[erg923]

Is the prestige of academic work worth the pay cut? I also realize that this pay cut also involves publication pressure, teaching, politics, which is all very time consuming and often does not leave time to explore activities outside of medicine

I would dare say that most people do not view psychiatry as "prestigious" at all. Who are you wanting to admire you, exactly?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I would dare say that most people do not view psychiatry as "prestigious" at all. Who are you wanting to admire you, exactly?

There you go again, bringing up my mother...

 

[dl2dp2]

I think you are right to be confused because it is definitely a confusing feeling. There is something about the fact that I just spent so many years in undergrad, med school, residency and it will all come to an end in private practice. It is almost like I want to keep striving to the next level and do clinical/research work at the highest quality. Being recognized as a major contributor to the field....
I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way

A couple of thoughts:

You are not the only one, but everyone who's thinking it this way is making a mistake by arbitrary putting yourself into a confusing extreme of constraining, dichotomous thought process.

Academia is *not* ipso facto more prestigious. There are a limited number of people who do high end private practices in Tribeca, or Pacific Palisades, or Los Altos etc. This type of job is not considered less "prestigious" compared to a full time researcher or clinician in academia at institutions in these cities, especially not "in the circle", and certainly not in the public eye. In fact, people know who got the jobs nobody wants in academia and who is thriving in private practice--some jobs in academia are known bad jobs that 1) attract lower tier candidates 2) have high turnover. Meanwhile a large proportion of people in high end practices that make >500k a year in private practice have very shiny CVs. Who exactly is "higher quality"? People in these circles also come in and out of academia--a lot of times senior clinicians become so wealthy that making more money makes no difference anymore and so they come back for fun. Secondly, the content of the work itself may not be that different, especially if you are a clinician. You'd be surprised by how many academic institutions are (sometimes covertly) building prestigious clinical services. In such a case you can explicitly calculate out the cost of having a name. Is a top plastic surgeon in private practice less prestigious than an academic, especially if the said private practice person developed a very unique expertise that's not considered the purview of academic plastic and reconstructive surgery? I think a lot of psychodynamic psychotherapy is very comparable in this regard, in that most academic psychiatry departments and research funding agencies are no longer interested in this kind of work, but there's still very clearly a clinical demand. Speaking of supply and demand, are professors in computer science at Stanford more or less prestigious than a senior engineer at Google? Is it more prestigious to be one of a thousand professors at a top 10 residency or be the chief of service at a major VA or public mental health system?

Even if you are serious about chasing after "prestige" for its own sakes, how do you quantify that?

You can become a major contributor to the field without having to be in academia at all. Academia is a shell. There are many other shells. You need to think out of the box a little bit. The first step is to figure out what you want to do on a day to day basis. THEN you can figure out if academia is the right shell for your career development. You have the cause and effect reversed.

 

[Blitz2006]

I would dare say that most people do not view psychiatry as "prestigious" at all. Who are you wanting to admire you, exactly?

The average person doesn't care. If you tell the average person that you're a doctor working at "Harvard" or "Yale" they will be impressed regardless of what specialty you are. And a lot of people like that prestige/attention, going to a dinner party and name dropping where they work. Which is fine. Just like other people only care about how many zeros are on their pay check. Which is also fine.

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[splik]

Is there any way to negotiate a higher salary in academics?

Please see my thread on negotiations. Please note that "prestigious" institutions will not negotiate with you, but other academic institutions will allow you to negotiate salary. There is more to negotiate than just salary, and if you are looking at an academic career then presumably salary is not as important to you as your ego. These "prestigious" institutions in the NE and midwest pay particularly bad.

Will doing a fellowship guarantee a higher starting salary?

child psychiatrists tend to earn more at academic institutions (but that is not always the case). Otherwise no, fellowships will not guarantee a higher starting salary. You will start at a higher step or rank however the more fellowships you have and will get promoted fasted. but not really as this is accounting for the years you would have otherwise been faculty if you weren't in fellowship. Fellowship training will make you more competitive/desirable however. Please see my FAQS on clinician-educator jobs.

Also if you are not doing your residency training at a "prestigious" place, then a fellowship at a "prestigious" place is your only way in (unless theyre getting desperate which some places are).

I am wondering how to approach a renowned academic institution and not be offered the 160-180 thousand dollar starting salary. I keep being told that I can moonlight on weekends or do private practice on the side but where will the time for my family come from? I have large loans but want to work in a prestigious environment.

The most prestigious places will pay far less than even that! They don't love you. They don't need you. You are not special. You have no leverage. They will never appreciate or value you. They will expect more and more of you for less and less. Also bear in mind if you are non-tenure track then everyone else will look down upon you and treat you like the replaceable cog that you are. If you are masochistic enough to by happy with that then great!

I agree with the above, it seems bizarre that psychiatrists would be concerned with prestige when you chose the least prestigious specialty in medicine. the waste management expert at harvard is still a garbage man.

one of the groups at one of the most prestigious academic medical centers in the country told me they would love to have me, but could not pay me!!! I **** you not! I don't give my stuff away for free!

I am also concerned if I work for a private hospital that I will lose academic momentum

Well why do you have to work for a private hospital? You could work at an academic affiliated VA, an academic affiliated county hospital, an academic affiliated state hospital, academic affiliated community clinic etc. Hell you could even work for Kaiser or something and have an academic appointment at UCSF or UCLA. You could go into private practice and teach med students or residents and be on the volunteer faculty at harvard or columbia or whatever. but prestigious psychiatry job is an oxymoron.

 

[deleted343839]

I think you are right to be confused because it is definitely a confusing feeling. There is something about the fact that I just spent so many years in undergrad, med school, residency and it will all come to an end in private practice. It is almost like I want to keep striving to the next level and do clinical/research work at the highest quality. Being recognized as a major contributor to the field....

The "is that all there is?" experience is common. As others have said, you can contribute to the field in a very visible way without being attached to a name-brand institution. But it is worth asking: which is more motivating, your contributions or the recognition they might garner? Also worth asking: what is it that you are driven to contribute? If you can clarify this, you can start to see through the fog of the carrot-and-stick game you've probably been playing since high school.

I am also concerned if I work for a private hospital that I will lose academic momentum

This is FOMO for people who have been in school a very long time.

 

[SeniorWrangler]

You can always start off in academics and then go private after a few years if you want, it's a great way to gain some experience and become known in an area. Just don't sign a non-compete.

Regarding salary negotiations: unless you're really something special (coming with a bunch of grants or a funding stream, being a star researcher, etc.), you're not going to have much leverage. There are newly minted attendings graduating every year, after all. Plus the business outlook in academic medicine is getting worse every year.

 

[Doc1401]

I think we are touching on some important points. We need to ask ourselves if the pursuit of "prestige" is our narcissism or ego. In our society there is this constant obsession to be noticed. "A calm and modest life brings more happiness than the pursuit of success combined with constant restlessness," - Einstein.

 

[SteinUmStein]

I think we are touching on some important points. We need to ask ourselves if the pursuit of "prestige" is our narcissism or ego. In our society there is this constant obsession to be noticed. "A calm and modest life brings more happiness than the pursuit of success combined with constant restlessness," - Einstein.

Agree with Einstein here. "Constant restlessness" is a good description of a successful academic physician, particularly one who plans to advance along the academic treadmill. A major eye-opener for me was learning how many work hours my faculty (both research and clinical) put in per week, across all their job descriptions. I've found academic surgeons to be the most honest about their complete devotion to their career - one memorable attending basically told our team, "Do academics if you love the work so much that you want it to be your full time job and all of your hobbies, combined."

 

[FlowRate]

The average person doesn't care. If you tell the average person that you're a doctor working at "Harvard" or "Yale" they will be impressed regardless of what specialty you are.

Except no one in Boston cares that you're a doctor or that you are a Harvard-affiliated doctor...

Prestige is relative.

 

[Blitz2006]

Except no one in Boston cares that you're a doctor or that you are a Harvard-affiliated doctor...

Prestige is relative.

I agree, but I'm sure some people like to brag to their family members in middle of nowhere america where they work 😀

 

[erg923]

Except no one in Boston cares that you're a doctor or that you are a Harvard-affiliated doctor...

Prestige is relative.

Likely to provoke the classsic "Ya think ya betta than me?!!!!" from one of the townies.