PhD/PsyD Academics resign over publisher greed. Are we surprised?

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It's CRAZY how money $$ is made by publishers, none of which goes to the authors. Or reviewers. It's a total scam and I can't believe I spent my FREE time being a reviewer when they don't value our work enough to even offer a nominal payment for the work.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
It's CRAZY how money $$ is made by publishers, none of which goes to the authors. Or reviewers. It's a total scam and I can't believe I spent my FREE time being a reviewer when they don't value our work enough to even offer a nominal payment for the work.
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I mean pretty much all of academia works off the principle of cheap exploited labor. Without it, the whole system would go under.
 
Sanman said:
I mean pretty much all of academia works off the principle of cheap exploited labor. Without it, the whole system would go under.
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Agreed.

Yet it occurs to me that there is probably nothing more sickening or absurd than a situation in which one operates in a corrupt system (propping it up and sustaining it) while get paid pennies on the dollar to do so.

It's one thing if you're working for free/cheap and doing highly ethical and honest scholarship type work for--and in the context of--a system that truly values it. But this system is...quite another. All the 'publish or perish' rat race stuff, circle-jerk citation practices, boring/mundane 'research' just to see who can get the most articles out in the least amount of time...meh...it seems crazy to do that sort of work for low pay. You'd make much more money being an actual used car salesman, politician, or lawyer.
 
Good for them. I don't know that it'll change anything unless it becomes more widespread, but I'm sure that felt nice to do. The amount they were charging to publish seems pretty ridiculous considering how much stuff they get for free from the academic community.
 
It’s work. Those benefiting from work, should pay for it.

Universities should pay professors, and not ask people to find their own funding. Journals should pay authors and give them royalties.

If you can’t afford to fairly pay your employees, you have a failed business model. If you’re unwilling to fairly pay your employees, you’re unethical and short sighted.
 
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'What'd the Devil give you for your soul, Tommy?'

'Well he taught me to play this here guitar REAL good'

'Oh son, for that you traded your everlasting soul?'

'Well...I wasn't USING' it!'

Love that scene
 
Ollie123 said:
Screw paper reviewing, grant reviewing is where the serious money is.

By serious, I mean like $200. Which is admittedly infinite percent more than I make reviewing papers?
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OK the $200 is almost insulting. But I have to say it is super enlightening to get a peek behind the scenes at other people's stuff.

Also it doesn't feel nearly as nauseating when you are trying to help the funding agency make good decisions about what to support, vs providing free intellectual labor for a private enterprise whose entire business model is built around raw exploitation.
 
tr said:
OK the $200 is almost insulting. But I have to say it is super enlightening to get a peek behind the scenes at other people's stuff.
in detail
Also it doesn't feel nearly as nauseating when you are trying to help the funding agency make good decisions about what to support, vs providing free intellectual labor for a private enterprise whose entire business model is built around raw exploitation.
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Hey, 100% agreed. Just told NIH I'd do one in June despite the fact that it is really terrible timing. I take that duty seriously as both a scientist and as a taxpayer - there's likely over ten million dollars on the line just from the meager handful of applications I was asked to review. Sitting on study sections is also incredibly informative for writing your own grants.

Agree RE: publishers. If they were barely breaking even I would get it, but that isn't the case.

Posted it here before, I'll say it again. Publishing model made sense when we needed printing presses at scale. When was the last time anyone read here read a print copy of a journal? When was the last time you went to a library to get a physical copy? Do you even know anyone who has read a print copy of a journal in the last 5 years and wasn't already retired?

I'm not sure what service journals provide other than copyediting (oftentimes terrible copyediting) and web hosting. I see no reason why a publication fee would need to be more than $5-10 in present times. Most of the copyediting is automated (and frankly unnecessary). I haven't priced it out in detail but I guarantee you for $10 AWS will agree to host a 300kb PDF for a very, very, very, very long time. So where does the money go?

Edit: I just priced it out for funzies. Assuming an article is roughly 300 kb, you can "store" (admittedly somewhat different from host on a highly accessed web platform) approximately 1.7 million articles for under $10/month. I believe by some estimates that is about equivalent to a years worth of all the publications in all the fields in all the languages around the world, but has increased exponentially over the years. Hosted for $10/month. Obviously yes, there would be other costs for an interactive web platform, etc. However, the fact that I personally could likely afford to store the entire history of the scientific enterprise on a web server without even putting my ability to pay my mortgage in danger is...telling. Imagine what I'll be able to afford once I get promoted to Associate Prof.
 
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Ollie123 said:
Hey, 100% agreed. Just told NIH I'd do one in June despite the fact that it is really terrible timing. I take that duty seriously as both a scientist and as a taxpayer - there's likely over ten million dollars on the line just from the meager handful of applications I was asked to review. Sitting on study sections is also incredibly informative for writing your own grants.

Agree RE: publishers. If they were barely breaking even I would get it, but that isn't the case.

Posted it here before, I'll say it again. Publishing model made sense when we needed printing presses at scale. When was the last time anyone read here read a print copy of a journal? When was the last time you went to a library to get a physical copy? Do you even know anyone who has read a print copy of a journal in the last 5 years and wasn't already retired?

I'm not sure what service journals provide other than copyediting (oftentimes terrible copyediting) and web hosting. I see no reason why a publication fee would need to be more than $5-10 in present times. Most of the copyediting is automated (and frankly unnecessary). I haven't priced it out in detail but I guarantee you for $10 AWS will agree to host a 30kb PDF for a very, very, very, very long time.
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Agreed. I spent countless hours haunting the stacks of my university library...30 years ago...but nowadays there's no excuse for the exorbitant fees publishers charge to access their materials which cost very little to maintain and distribute (comparatively to print copies).
 
Ollie123 said:
Hey, 100% agreed. Just told NIH I'd do one in June despite the fact that it is really terrible timing. I take that duty seriously as both a scientist and as a taxpayer - there's likely over ten million dollars on the line just from the meager handful of applications I was asked to review. Sitting on study sections is also incredibly informative for writing your own grants.

Agree RE: publishers. If they were barely breaking even I would get it, but that isn't the case.

Posted it here before, I'll say it again. Publishing model made sense when we needed printing presses at scale. When was the last time anyone read here read a print copy of a journal? When was the last time you went to a library to get a physical copy? Do you even know anyone who has read a print copy of a journal in the last 5 years and wasn't already retired?

I'm not sure what service journals provide other than copyediting (oftentimes terrible copyediting) and web hosting. I see no reason why a publication fee would need to be more than $5-10 in present times. Most of the copyediting is automated (and frankly unnecessary). I haven't priced it out in detail but I guarantee you for $10 AWS will agree to host a 30kb PDF for a very, very, very, very long time.
Click to expand...

For the same reason banks, fast food restaurants, cafeteria companies and the other businesses supporting academic campuses make money hand over fist while the faculty barely make a living and students pay through the nose.

I still remember an incident at my alma mater where the administration was attempting to put up $400k in new signage and new sports facilities while faculty were on strike over pay. This was 20 years ago.

There is a lot money in academia and very little of it goes to the people doing the real work. One of the many reasons I opted out of an academic career.
 
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Sanman said:
There is a lot money in academia and very little of it goes to the people doing the real work. One of the many reasons I opted out of an academic career.
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Just gotta find the right academic gig🙂 Not denying I could make more money in a different field, but pay on the high end is nothing to sneeze at. I'd almost certainly make significantly less seeing patients, unless I built a sizable practice and hired others to skim from or got into forensics.
 
Sanman said:
For the same reason banks, fast food restaurants, cafeteria companies and the other businesses supporting academic campuses make money hand over fist while the faculty barely make a living and students pay through the nose.

I still remember an incident alma mater where the administration was attempting to put up $400k in new signage and new sports facilities while faculty were on strike over pay. This was 20 years ago.

There is a lot money in academia and very little of it goes to the people doing the real work. One of the many reasons I opted out of an academic career.
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This is so key. I remember seeing a graph of how, over the last several decades, as tuition has skyrocketed the number of faculty (and their salaries) has remained fairly flat while administrative/adjunct positions and salaries have gone through the roof.

Same thing is occurring in health care, by the way.
 
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Ollie123 said:
Edit: I just priced it out for funzies. Assuming an article is roughly 300 kb, you can "store" (admittedly somewhat different from host on a highly accessed web platform) approximately 1.7 million articles for under $10/month. I believe by some estimates that is about equivalent to a years worth of all the publications in all the fields in all the languages around the world, but has increased exponentially over the years. Hosted for $10/month. Obviously yes, there would be other costs for an interactive web platform, etc. However, the fact that I personally could likely afford to store the entire history of the scientific enterprise on a web server without even putting my ability to pay my mortgage in danger is...telling. Imagine what I'll be able to afford once I get promoted to Associate Prof.
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I think you have a future tech start up on your hands here provided you don't become the very evil you wish to extinguish.
 
R. Matey said:
I think you have a future tech start up on your hands here provided you don't become the very evil you wish to extinguish.
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What if I promised to start with the best of intentions before gradually completely giving up on them?
 
Don't they still also charge like $50 bucks a copy for digital PDFs of doctoral dissertations? The publishers that don't usually do anything on these, get a copy uploaded to their servers as part of "your contribution to scholarly materials!" then shill it to the next students in 5,10,20,30 years down the line who need research material for their dissertations.
 
R. Matey said:
I think you have a future tech start up on your hands here provided you don't become the very evil you wish to extinguish.
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Tech startup but....without the evil? ....I'm so confused. Its like you are telling me to go left and right at the same time.

If I won't sell lists of faculty emails to 3rd world spammers and unreleased proprietary trade secrets to the Chinese government I'm not even sure how I'd go about getting seed funding.
 
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Ollie123 said:
Tech startup but....without the evil? ....I'm so confused. Its like you are telling me to go left and right at the same time.

If I won't sell lists of faculty emails to 3rd world spammers and unreleased proprietary trade secrets to the Chinese government I'm not even sure how I'd go about getting seed funding.
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You could mint your own crypto or hock NFTs. Totally stable sources of income.
 
Ollie123 said:
Just gotta find the right academic gig🙂 Not denying I could make more money in a different field, but pay on the high end is nothing to sneeze at. I'd almost certainly make significantly less seeing patients, unless I built a sizable practice and hired others to skim from or got into forensics.
Click to expand...

How does the money compare to the Elsevier CEO?
 
Terribly. I'd take my gig over his/hers any day though.
 
Ollie123 said:
Screw paper reviewing, grant reviewing is where the serious money is.

By serious, I mean like $200. Which is admittedly infinite percent more than I make reviewing papers?
Click to expand...
You're reviewing for the wrong agency, my friend. We make $800 for three days, even if a given day of reviewing is only a couple of hours long.
 
Ollie123 said:
Just gotta find the right academic gig🙂 Not denying I could make more money in a different field, but pay on the high end is nothing to sneeze at. I'd almost certainly make significantly less seeing patients, unless I built a sizable practice and hired others to skim from or got into forensics.
Click to expand...
How is this possible? Are you not subject to the NIH salary cap?

futureapppsy2 said:
You're reviewing for the wrong agency, my friend. We make $800 for three days, even if a given day of reviewing is only a couple of hours long.
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That's pretty sweet. But also, what kind of study section only lasts 2h? I'm clearly in the wrong field.
 
Ollie123 said:
Hey, 100% agreed. Just told NIH I'd do one in June despite the fact that it is really terrible timing. I take that duty seriously as both a scientist and as a taxpayer - there's likely over ten million dollars on the line just from the meager handful of applications I was asked to review. Sitting on study sections is also incredibly informative for writing your own grants.

Agree RE: publishers. If they were barely breaking even I would get it, but that isn't the case.

Posted it here before, I'll say it again. Publishing model made sense when we needed printing presses at scale. When was the last time anyone read here read a print copy of a journal? When was the last time you went to a library to get a physical copy? Do you even know anyone who has read a print copy of a journal in the last 5 years and wasn't already retired?

I'm not sure what service journals provide other than copyediting (oftentimes terrible copyediting) and web hosting. I see no reason why a publication fee would need to be more than $5-10 in present times. Most of the copyediting is automated (and frankly unnecessary). I haven't priced it out in detail but I guarantee you for $10 AWS will agree to host a 300kb PDF for a very, very, very, very long time. So where does the money go?

Edit: I just priced it out for funzies. Assuming an article is roughly 300 kb, you can "store" (admittedly somewhat different from host on a highly accessed web platform) approximately 1.7 million articles for under $10/month. I believe by some estimates that is about equivalent to a years worth of all the publications in all the fields in all the languages around the world, but has increased exponentially over the years. Hosted for $10/month. Obviously yes, there would be other costs for an interactive web platform, etc. However, the fact that I personally could likely afford to store the entire history of the scientific enterprise on a web server without even putting my ability to pay my mortgage in danger is...telling. Imagine what I'll be able to afford once I get promoted to Associate Prof.
Click to expand...
I feel personally attacked.

Kidding, kidding.

I do prefer to print and read articles when I can, but I don't do it often. Also, that still offloads the cost on to me and not the publisher--I'm even paying for my own hard copies. I should start sending them a bill for it.
 
Ollie123 said:
Hey, 100% agreed. Just told NIH I'd do one in June despite the fact that it is really terrible timing. I take that duty seriously as both a scientist and as a taxpayer - there's likely over ten million dollars on the line just from the meager handful of applications I was asked to review. Sitting on study sections is also incredibly informative for writing your own grants.

Agree RE: publishers. If they were barely breaking even I would get it, but that isn't the case.

Posted it here before, I'll say it again. Publishing model made sense when we needed printing presses at scale. When was the last time anyone read here read a print copy of a journal? When was the last time you went to a library to get a physical copy? Do you even know anyone who has read a print copy of a journal in the last 5 years and wasn't already retired?

I'm not sure what service journals provide other than copyediting (oftentimes terrible copyediting) and web hosting. I see no reason why a publication fee would need to be more than $5-10 in present times. Most of the copyediting is automated (and frankly unnecessary). I haven't priced it out in detail but I guarantee you for $10 AWS will agree to host a 300kb PDF for a very, very, very, very long time. So where does the money go?

Edit: I just priced it out for funzies. Assuming an article is roughly 300 kb, you can "store" (admittedly somewhat different from host on a highly accessed web platform) approximately 1.7 million articles for under $10/month. I believe by some estimates that is about equivalent to a years worth of all the publications in all the fields in all the languages around the world, but has increased exponentially over the years. Hosted for $10/month. Obviously yes, there would be other costs for an interactive web platform, etc. However, the fact that I personally could likely afford to store the entire history of the scientific enterprise on a web server without even putting my ability to pay my mortgage in danger is...telling. Imagine what I'll be able to afford once I get promoted to Associate Prof.
Click to expand...

I read the print copy of Journal of Philosophy, Psychiatry and Psychology that gets mailed to me along with AAPP membership but it's a) quarterly b) often has a series of articles arguing with each other that really make more sense read in sequence and c) being philosophy has the kind of articles where being able to jot down marginalia is really helpful for making use of the contents. I would never do this with, say, JAMA.
 
tr said:
How is this possible? Are you not subject to the NIH salary cap?
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Noticed your tag said physician so the pay scale is likely a fair bit different. I agree with the cap it is tougher to make it work on the physician scale. 212k (think that's the 2023 cap?) + benefits is not jaw-dropping, but is definitely a very nice salary for a psychologist and I know relatively few full profs in AMC settings who aren't at or above the cap. Most won't hit that until full prof, but those who are very successful or with admin roles can get beyond that into the 250-400 range, at which point a lot of it ends up getting cost-shared from the university.

Junior level is different, but as a VA clinician here, I'd probably make ~ 2/3 what I do and the VA pays better at the junior level than most other clinical settings. Could I have scaled a PP to match this (+ extra to cover the benefits gap) in the same time frame? Good question, honestly not sure.

For perspective, I've seen folks on this board discuss faculty positions paying 60k. That's admittedly low-end, but still. My post-docs make 60k.
AcronymAllergy said:
I feel personally attacked.

Kidding, kidding.

I do prefer to print and read articles when I can, but I don't do it often. Also, that still offloads the cost on to me and not the publisher--I'm even paying for my own hard copies. I should start sending them a bill for it.
Click to expand...
I print articles sometimes too, but you printing a PDF costs them fractions of a penny in web server traffic. When was the last time you sat down with a physical copy of "Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology" you got in the mail?
 
Ollie123 said:
Noticed your tag said physician so the pay scale is likely a fair bit different. I agree with the cap it is tougher to make it work on the physician scale. 212k (think that's the 2023 cap?) + benefits is not jaw-dropping, but is definitely a very nice salary for a psychologist and I know relatively few full profs in AMC settings who aren't at or above the cap. Most won't hit that until full prof, but those who are very successful or with admin roles can get beyond that into the 250-400 range, at which point a lot of it ends up getting cost-shared from the university.

Junior level is different, but as a VA clinician here, I'd probably make ~ 2/3 what I do and the VA pays better at the junior level than most other clinical settings. Could I have scaled a PP to match this (+ extra to cover the benefits gap) in the same time frame? Good question, honestly not sure.

For perspective, I've seen folks on this board discuss faculty positions paying 60k. That's admittedly low-end, but still. My post-docs make 60k.

I print articles sometimes too, but you printing a PDF costs them fractions of a penny in web server traffic. When was the last time you sat down with a physical copy of "Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology" you got in the mail?
Click to expand...
I do read print copies of the very small number of journals I receive in that format. But if given the option, I never pay extra for print copies. It's definitely a miniscule expense in most cases, and one they usually charge extra for anyway.
 
AcronymAllergy said:
I do read print copies of the very small number of journals I receive in that format. But if given the option, I never pay extra for print copies. It's definitely a miniscule expense in most cases, and one they usually charge extra for anyway.
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Did anyone else's library have the mechanized space saving stacks? IME, if I wanted something earlier than maybe ~1985 (for historical context), I had to go down there for it. I'll admit two things: (1) I kinda liked going down there, and relatedly (2) I am huge nerd.
 
R. Matey said:
Did anyone else's library have the mechanized space saving stacks? IME, if I wanted something earlier than maybe ~1985 (for historical context), I had to go down there for it. I'll admit two things: (1) I kinda liked going down there, and relatedly (2) I am huge nerd.
Click to expand...
I don't remember that at our library, sadly. The only space-saving we had that I know of was microfiche. Which was...not fun to use.
 
R. Matey said:
Did anyone else's library have the mechanized space saving stacks? IME, if I wanted something earlier than maybe ~1985 (for historical context), I had to go down there for it. I'll admit two things: (1) I kinda liked going down there, and relatedly (2) I am huge nerd.
Click to expand...

We had these at my undergrad and grad.
 
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