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‘Too greedy’: mass walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
Entire board resigns over actions of academic publisher whose profit margins outstrip even Google and Amazon
It's CRAZY how money $$ is made by publishers, none of which goes to the authors. Or reviewers. It's a total scam and I can't believe I spent my FREE time being a reviewer when they don't value our work enough to even offer a nominal payment for the work.
Agreed.I mean pretty much all of academia works off the principle of cheap exploited labor. Without it, the whole system would go under.
So, she could afford the jar of peanut butter and the Cup O Noodles? Living large...I read a novel where one of the characters was an academic researcher and she said she'd been "paid well" for publishing articles. I literally laughed out loud.
I read a novel where one of the characters was an academic researcher and she said she'd been "paid well" for publishing articles. I literally laughed out loud.
OK the $200 is almost insulting. But I have to say it is super enlightening to get a peek behind the scenes at other people's stuff.Screw paper reviewing, grant reviewing is where the serious money is.
By serious, I mean like $200. Which is admittedly infinite percent more than I make reviewing papers?
Hey, 100% agreed. Just told NIH I'd do one in June despite the fact that it is really terrible timing. I take that duty seriously as both a scientist and as a taxpayer - there's likely over ten million dollars on the line just from the meager handful of applications I was asked to review. Sitting on study sections is also incredibly informative for writing your own grants.OK the $200 is almost insulting. But I have to say it is super enlightening to get a peek behind the scenes at other people's stuff.
in detail
Also it doesn't feel nearly as nauseating when you are trying to help the funding agency make good decisions about what to support, vs providing free intellectual labor for a private enterprise whose entire business model is built around raw exploitation.
Agreed. I spent countless hours haunting the stacks of my university library...30 years ago...but nowadays there's no excuse for the exorbitant fees publishers charge to access their materials which cost very little to maintain and distribute (comparatively to print copies).Hey, 100% agreed. Just told NIH I'd do one in June despite the fact that it is really terrible timing. I take that duty seriously as both a scientist and as a taxpayer - there's likely over ten million dollars on the line just from the meager handful of applications I was asked to review. Sitting on study sections is also incredibly informative for writing your own grants.
Agree RE: publishers. If they were barely breaking even I would get it, but that isn't the case.
Posted it here before, I'll say it again. Publishing model made sense when we needed printing presses at scale. When was the last time anyone read here read a print copy of a journal? When was the last time you went to a library to get a physical copy? Do you even know anyone who has read a print copy of a journal in the last 5 years and wasn't already retired?
I'm not sure what service journals provide other than copyediting (oftentimes terrible copyediting) and web hosting. I see no reason why a publication fee would need to be more than $5-10 in present times. Most of the copyediting is automated (and frankly unnecessary). I haven't priced it out in detail but I guarantee you for $10 AWS will agree to host a 30kb PDF for a very, very, very, very long time.
Hey, 100% agreed. Just told NIH I'd do one in June despite the fact that it is really terrible timing. I take that duty seriously as both a scientist and as a taxpayer - there's likely over ten million dollars on the line just from the meager handful of applications I was asked to review. Sitting on study sections is also incredibly informative for writing your own grants.
Agree RE: publishers. If they were barely breaking even I would get it, but that isn't the case.
Posted it here before, I'll say it again. Publishing model made sense when we needed printing presses at scale. When was the last time anyone read here read a print copy of a journal? When was the last time you went to a library to get a physical copy? Do you even know anyone who has read a print copy of a journal in the last 5 years and wasn't already retired?
I'm not sure what service journals provide other than copyediting (oftentimes terrible copyediting) and web hosting. I see no reason why a publication fee would need to be more than $5-10 in present times. Most of the copyediting is automated (and frankly unnecessary). I haven't priced it out in detail but I guarantee you for $10 AWS will agree to host a 30kb PDF for a very, very, very, very long time.
There is a lot money in academia and very little of it goes to the people doing the real work. One of the many reasons I opted out of an academic career.
This is so key. I remember seeing a graph of how, over the last several decades, as tuition has skyrocketed the number of faculty (and their salaries) has remained fairly flat while administrative/adjunct positions and salaries have gone through the roof.For the same reason banks, fast food restaurants, cafeteria companies and the other businesses supporting academic campuses make money hand over fist while the faculty barely make a living and students pay through the nose.
I still remember an incident alma mater where the administration was attempting to put up $400k in new signage and new sports facilities while faculty were on strike over pay. This was 20 years ago.
There is a lot money in academia and very little of it goes to the people doing the real work. One of the many reasons I opted out of an academic career.
Edit: I just priced it out for funzies. Assuming an article is roughly 300 kb, you can "store" (admittedly somewhat different from host on a highly accessed web platform) approximately 1.7 million articles for under $10/month. I believe by some estimates that is about equivalent to a years worth of all the publications in all the fields in all the languages around the world, but has increased exponentially over the years. Hosted for $10/month. Obviously yes, there would be other costs for an interactive web platform, etc. However, the fact that I personally could likely afford to store the entire history of the scientific enterprise on a web server without even putting my ability to pay my mortgage in danger is...telling. Imagine what I'll be able to afford once I get promoted to Associate Prof.
I think you have a future tech start up on your hands here provided you don't become the very evil you wish to extinguish.
What if I promised to start with the best of intentions before gradually completely giving up on them?
I think you have a future tech start up on your hands here provided you don't become the very evil you wish to extinguish.
Tech startup but....without the evil? ....I'm so confused. Its like you are telling me to go left and right at the same time.
If I won't sell lists of faculty emails to 3rd world spammers and unreleased proprietary trade secrets to the Chinese government I'm not even sure how I'd go about getting seed funding.
Just gotta find the right academic gig🙂 Not denying I could make more money in a different field, but pay on the high end is nothing to sneeze at. I'd almost certainly make significantly less seeing patients, unless I built a sizable practice and hired others to skim from or got into forensics.
Terribly. I'd take my gig over his/hers any day though.
You're reviewing for the wrong agency, my friend. We make $800 for three days, even if a given day of reviewing is only a couple of hours long.Screw paper reviewing, grant reviewing is where the serious money is.
By serious, I mean like $200. Which is admittedly infinite percent more than I make reviewing papers?
How is this possible? Are you not subject to the NIH salary cap?Just gotta find the right academic gig🙂 Not denying I could make more money in a different field, but pay on the high end is nothing to sneeze at. I'd almost certainly make significantly less seeing patients, unless I built a sizable practice and hired others to skim from or got into forensics.
futureapppsy2 said:You're reviewing for the wrong agency, my friend. We make $800 for three days, even if a given day of reviewing is only a couple of hours long.
I feel personally attacked.Hey, 100% agreed. Just told NIH I'd do one in June despite the fact that it is really terrible timing. I take that duty seriously as both a scientist and as a taxpayer - there's likely over ten million dollars on the line just from the meager handful of applications I was asked to review. Sitting on study sections is also incredibly informative for writing your own grants.
Agree RE: publishers. If they were barely breaking even I would get it, but that isn't the case.
Posted it here before, I'll say it again. Publishing model made sense when we needed printing presses at scale. When was the last time anyone read here read a print copy of a journal? When was the last time you went to a library to get a physical copy? Do you even know anyone who has read a print copy of a journal in the last 5 years and wasn't already retired?
I'm not sure what service journals provide other than copyediting (oftentimes terrible copyediting) and web hosting. I see no reason why a publication fee would need to be more than $5-10 in present times. Most of the copyediting is automated (and frankly unnecessary). I haven't priced it out in detail but I guarantee you for $10 AWS will agree to host a 300kb PDF for a very, very, very, very long time. So where does the money go?
Edit: I just priced it out for funzies. Assuming an article is roughly 300 kb, you can "store" (admittedly somewhat different from host on a highly accessed web platform) approximately 1.7 million articles for under $10/month. I believe by some estimates that is about equivalent to a years worth of all the publications in all the fields in all the languages around the world, but has increased exponentially over the years. Hosted for $10/month. Obviously yes, there would be other costs for an interactive web platform, etc. However, the fact that I personally could likely afford to store the entire history of the scientific enterprise on a web server without even putting my ability to pay my mortgage in danger is...telling. Imagine what I'll be able to afford once I get promoted to Associate Prof.
Hey, 100% agreed. Just told NIH I'd do one in June despite the fact that it is really terrible timing. I take that duty seriously as both a scientist and as a taxpayer - there's likely over ten million dollars on the line just from the meager handful of applications I was asked to review. Sitting on study sections is also incredibly informative for writing your own grants.
Agree RE: publishers. If they were barely breaking even I would get it, but that isn't the case.
Posted it here before, I'll say it again. Publishing model made sense when we needed printing presses at scale. When was the last time anyone read here read a print copy of a journal? When was the last time you went to a library to get a physical copy? Do you even know anyone who has read a print copy of a journal in the last 5 years and wasn't already retired?
I'm not sure what service journals provide other than copyediting (oftentimes terrible copyediting) and web hosting. I see no reason why a publication fee would need to be more than $5-10 in present times. Most of the copyediting is automated (and frankly unnecessary). I haven't priced it out in detail but I guarantee you for $10 AWS will agree to host a 300kb PDF for a very, very, very, very long time. So where does the money go?
Edit: I just priced it out for funzies. Assuming an article is roughly 300 kb, you can "store" (admittedly somewhat different from host on a highly accessed web platform) approximately 1.7 million articles for under $10/month. I believe by some estimates that is about equivalent to a years worth of all the publications in all the fields in all the languages around the world, but has increased exponentially over the years. Hosted for $10/month. Obviously yes, there would be other costs for an interactive web platform, etc. However, the fact that I personally could likely afford to store the entire history of the scientific enterprise on a web server without even putting my ability to pay my mortgage in danger is...telling. Imagine what I'll be able to afford once I get promoted to Associate Prof.
Noticed your tag said physician so the pay scale is likely a fair bit different. I agree with the cap it is tougher to make it work on the physician scale. 212k (think that's the 2023 cap?) + benefits is not jaw-dropping, but is definitely a very nice salary for a psychologist and I know relatively few full profs in AMC settings who aren't at or above the cap. Most won't hit that until full prof, but those who are very successful or with admin roles can get beyond that into the 250-400 range, at which point a lot of it ends up getting cost-shared from the university.How is this possible? Are you not subject to the NIH salary cap?
I print articles sometimes too, but you printing a PDF costs them fractions of a penny in web server traffic. When was the last time you sat down with a physical copy of "Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology" you got in the mail?I feel personally attacked.
Kidding, kidding.
I do prefer to print and read articles when I can, but I don't do it often. Also, that still offloads the cost on to me and not the publisher--I'm even paying for my own hard copies. I should start sending them a bill for it.
I do read print copies of the very small number of journals I receive in that format. But if given the option, I never pay extra for print copies. It's definitely a miniscule expense in most cases, and one they usually charge extra for anyway.Noticed your tag said physician so the pay scale is likely a fair bit different. I agree with the cap it is tougher to make it work on the physician scale. 212k (think that's the 2023 cap?) + benefits is not jaw-dropping, but is definitely a very nice salary for a psychologist and I know relatively few full profs in AMC settings who aren't at or above the cap. Most won't hit that until full prof, but those who are very successful or with admin roles can get beyond that into the 250-400 range, at which point a lot of it ends up getting cost-shared from the university.
Junior level is different, but as a VA clinician here, I'd probably make ~ 2/3 what I do and the VA pays better at the junior level than most other clinical settings. Could I have scaled a PP to match this (+ extra to cover the benefits gap) in the same time frame? Good question, honestly not sure.
For perspective, I've seen folks on this board discuss faculty positions paying 60k. That's admittedly low-end, but still. My post-docs make 60k.
I print articles sometimes too, but you printing a PDF costs them fractions of a penny in web server traffic. When was the last time you sat down with a physical copy of "Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology" you got in the mail?
I do read print copies of the very small number of journals I receive in that format. But if given the option, I never pay extra for print copies. It's definitely a miniscule expense in most cases, and one they usually charge extra for anyway.
I don't remember that at our library, sadly. The only space-saving we had that I know of was microfiche. Which was...not fun to use.Did anyone else's library have the mechanized space saving stacks? IME, if I wanted something earlier than maybe ~1985 (for historical context), I had to go down there for it. I'll admit two things: (1) I kinda liked going down there, and relatedly (2) I am huge nerd.
Did anyone else's library have the mechanized space saving stacks? IME, if I wanted something earlier than maybe ~1985 (for historical context), I had to go down there for it. I'll admit two things: (1) I kinda liked going down there, and relatedly (2) I am huge nerd.