Accreditation Changes?

[NStarz]

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[NStarz]

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[Lissarae06]

I think more transparency is always a good thing. I also like the idea of a joint accreditation board between the COE and AAVMC. I don't think Western is a crummy school at all but I do understand their point about the problems created by Western's accreditation.

 

[Emiloo4]

I think more transparency is always a good thing. I also like the idea of a joint accreditation board between the COE and AAVMC. I don't think Western is a crummy school at all but I do understand their point about the problems created by Western's accreditation.

Yeah I'm actually sort of glad about this. I think they have lost sight of the future of this profession with all their accreditations and new school building shiz. Yes, it's hard to get into veterinary school, and yes more people would like the opportunity, but what is the use if you can't find a job when you graduate anyway? Hoping this means good things for our profession

 

[LetItSnow]

I think more transparency is always a good thing. I also like the idea of a joint accreditation board between the COE and AAVMC. I don't think Western is a crummy school at all but I do understand their point about the problems created by Western's accreditation.

👍👍👍

We had a speaker a couple weeks ago who was just headed out to participate with Dr. Pion and the others in more meetings regarding this issue. Over dinner he shared his frustrations with the accrediting process, and I think they go much deeper than what was covered in that article.

Anyway, I *know* it's controversial, and the arguments against it are *not* bad ones, but I still think that we're not going to see improvement in the education side of things until limited licensure comes to pass and NBVME overhauls NAVLE. That will allow schools to focus on what they're good at, and limit their teaching staff to those necessary to teach that school's focus. It will allow students to focus from day 1, turning out more confident and competent practitioners at graduation.

I see the reasons people oppose it: it prevents horizontal movement within the industry (say, from large animal practice to small) without significant retraining (but is that really a bad thing??), it limits people who want to practice across a wider variety of species (no reason you couldn't build in a mixed licensure that required additional training), etc.

But I think the pros outweigh the cons. Veterinary medicine has become too advanced for us all to be generalists across so many species, and I think the dramatically increasing rates of people who do internships because they don't feel confident after graduation highlights that.

My prediction: Whether you're for it or against it, limited licensure is coming within the next two decades.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

But I think the pros outweigh the cons. Veterinary medicine has become too advanced for us all to be generalists across so many species, and I think the dramatically increasing rates of people who do internships because they don't feel confident after graduation highlights that.

My prediction: Whether you're for it or against it, limited licensure is coming within the next two decades.

Absolutely. And to be honest, I don't have a problem with it.

This may not have been an issue back when the profession was less advanced. The whole James Herriot days are largely gone unless you focus in a rural area as a mixed species vet (and are not going to need to use advanced techniques anyway, because they aren't available out in bum****, and can therefore be more of a generalist).

I think sometimes we get a little defensive and romantic about our profession, and how we are supposed to be able to do (and have historically done) everything. The whole point of being a vet is breadth over depth, true. The problem is when the wide range also becomes incredibly detailed as diagnostics, treatments, and discoveries pile on.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Absolutely. And to be honest, I don't have a problem with it.

[...]

I think sometimes we get a little defensive and romantic about our profession, and how we are supposed to be able to do (and have historically done) everything. The whole point of being a vet is breadth over depth, true. The problem is when the wide range also becomes incredibly detailed as diagnostics, treatments, and discoveries pile on.

👍👍👍

 

[primatevetjess]

I think limited licensure Is a really great idea and should be implemented as soon as possible. As it is, I really don't think the NAVLE says anything about someone's competency as a veterinarian. I basically relied on recognition for the species I don't know much about.

Also, the very fact that I will be licensed to diagnose and treat horses in 6 months is kind of terrifying. I should never be allowed anywhere near a horse - I've never taken an equine class, I'm not doing any equine rotations, and I know minimally more about them than the average person on the street.

 

[PetPony]

Do you guys really think there should be a test like the NAVLE? If it really changes to school becoming more specialized, would it be possible to check the students competence during clinics without taking a test like that?

(Not saying that's how it should be, but just curious if something like that would be possible. If they'd be specialized, it'd be easier to check their competence in that field?)

 

[primatevetjess]

I think the profession will always feel the need to have a licensing exam. I just think that the current exam is completely useless in determining competency.

 

[DjIL]

Thanks so much for sharing this topic! I find these issues fascinating and very important.

 

[LetItSnow]

I think the profession will always feel the need to have a licensing exam. I just think that the current exam is completely useless in determining competency.

But it totally checks your ability to remember diseases that haven't been seen in the U.S. in 20 years that you'll never encounter in practice! C'mon!

 

[jmo1012]

not at all against limited licensure, but what happens to the equine vet that gets injured and can no longer do equine work? or the LA/farm vet who isn't earning enough to support himself? or someone who goes into a field of vet med and just can't get a job despite all those years of school allowing them only to practice in x field? just curious what ya'lls thoughts were 🙂

 

[nyanko]

Anyway, I *know* it's controversial, and the arguments against it are *not* bad ones, but I still think that we're not going to see improvement in the education side of things until limited licensure comes to pass and NBVME overhauls NAVLE. That will allow schools to focus on what they're good at, and limit their teaching staff to those necessary to teach that school's focus. It will allow students to focus from day 1, turning out more confident and competent practitioners at graduation.

I'm actually a fan of the idea of limited licensure, so don't take this as an opposing statement for that. However, the bolded part I'm not sure about, as long as so many schools are still state-supported. It seems kind of unfair to say that if you live in a state that has a SA focused school and are interested in becoming a food animal vet, your only choice is an OOS school that will probably cost you an arm and a leg because it's a state school. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean here - I think schools are still going to have to keep their broad focus.

I dunno, I think the way we do tracking here (especially in the new curriculum) is pretty much what an ideal limited licensure curriculum would look like. I'm tracking Small/Food (which will be much harder to do in the new curriculum, they're REALLY trying to get people to focus on one area) and like jj there is absolutely no way that I should be allowed anywhere near a horse, next year during clinics or after I graduate or ever ever.

 

[primatevetjess]

But it totally checks your ability to remember diseases that haven't been seen in the U.S. in 20 years that you'll never encounter in practice! C'mon!

Haha dude seriously. Most ridiculous exam ever.

I do agree with nyanko though, that the schools themselves should maintain the ability to teach all facets of vet med. Just that licensing should be more focused and limited.

 

[Lissarae06]

As someone who lives in rural cattle country and wants to do mixed animal, I don't know how I feel about limited licensure. LIS, you mentioned additional training for mixed animal vets. Do you mean additional years (aka more debt)? Out here mixed animal vets are sometimes the only vet in the county. They don't make much as it is and work long hours. If they have to take on additional debt to serve their areas, I think we will see fewer and fewer people willing and able to work in these areas.

 

[primatevetjess]

Lissarae makes a good point. Perhaps the education and tracking could remain as it is (so not adding additional years/debt), then you could choose to take whichever licensing exams you wish.

And jmo, if a vet wants to change focus halfway through their career, they can take another licensing exam. They would need to study and brush up on the medicine, but they should do that anyway if they're changing to an entirely new species 20 years out of vet school.

 

[LetItSnow]

As someone who lives in rural cattle country and wants to do mixed animal, I don't know how I feel about limited licensure. LIS, you mentioned additional training for mixed animal vets. Do you mean additional years (aka more debt)? Out here mixed animal vets are sometimes the only vet in the county. They don't make much as it is and work long hours. If they have to take on additional debt to serve their areas, I think we will see fewer and fewer people willing and able to work in these areas.

Well, first: I totally acknowledge the (serious) downside of limited licensure for people who want to practice either mixed medicine, or who want to transition from large to small (as is, from what I understand, pretty common?). So I'm not just rolling my eyes and ignoring that downside.

"Additional training" were poorly chosen words. What I really foresee happening is simply this: someone wanting to practice mixed will have to pass all that appropriate limited licensure tests. Want to practice equine? Pass the equine exam. Want to practice companion animal medicine? Pass that test. And so on.

So if you want to practice in more areas, you'd "simply" (ha!) pass that many more tests. Yes, it's a burden to people who want to go mixed. But on the other hand, it's not unreasonable to expect that if someone wants to practice on that many more species that they demonstrate expertise in all of them. Whether that ends up requiring more formal training (i.e. return to vet school, which is likely to be so onerous as to be prohibitive) or requires the individual to take it upon themselves to self-educate ... I don't know. I'd be inclined toward the latter because of the cost of the former. Probably you could put structure in place that allows people with existing DVM degrees to qualify for the exam(s) automatically.

Limited licensure creates certain problems - no argument. And I'm not sure what the 'best' solution is.

Lissarae makes a good point. Perhaps the education and tracking could remain as it is (so not adding additional years/debt), then you could choose to take whichever licensing exams you wish.

I think leaving the education and tracking the way it is removes any real advantage to limited licensure. The big advantage to it is that students could avoid putting so much effort into areas of medicine they will never use again (like the swine core class I'm taking right now, and the avian core I have to take next semester). That time could be spent becoming that much more competent with the material I *will* use.

And jmo, if a vet wants to change focus halfway through their career, they can take another licensing exam. They would need to study and brush up on the medicine, but they should do that anyway if they're changing to an entirely new species 20 years out of vet school.

👍👍

 

[primatevetjess]

I really foresee happening is simply this: someone wanting to practice mixed will have to pass all that appropriate limited licensure tests. Want to practice equine? Pass the equine exam. Want to practice companion animal medicine? Pass that test. And so on.

👍 Yeah, that was my suggestion as well. I think that would work well.

I think leaving the education and tracking the way it is removes any real advantage to limited licensure. The big advantage to it is that students could avoid putting so much effort into areas of medicine they will never use again (like the swine core class I'm taking right now, and the avian core I have to take next semester). That time could be spent becoming that much more competent with the material I *will* use.

Ah, well I suppose it depends on the education and tracking. I agree with your example, I was only basing it off of my own experience. At Davis, we do not have swine or avian core classes. The only medicine classes that are required are the ones associated with your track.

 

[shortnsweet]

I do not approve of theirs views on international accreditation...the UK schools have been accredited for at least 15 years now, and producing top vets equally as qualified as US schools.

Wonder if this will affect our re-accreditation visit in April

 

[Lissarae06]

I do not approve of theirs views on international accreditation...the UK schools have been accredited for at least 15 years now, and producing top vets equally as qualified as US schools.

Wonder if this will affect our re-accreditation visit in April

SNS I thnk that was referring to the steep increase in international accreditation that has occurred over the last few years (Mexico, the caribbean school, another in Australia). I.could be totally wrong though.

We don't track here but we also don't have core courses that only cover one species. We have electives for people wanting to go more in depth about avian, shelter med, food animal, equine, etc. I think it works great because it allows those who want more focus and know what they want to go into to track themselves while also allowing those who want to cover more species to do so.

 

[shortnsweet]

SNS I thnk that was referring to the steep increase in international accreditation that has occurred over the last few years (Mexico, the caribbean school, another in Australia). I.could be totally wrong though.

Maybe...I know the stigma still exists amongst the older vets though. I have been refused an externship because I go to an international school---they didn't even care that I was at one that is AVMA accredited or planning to work in the states. I know it has jumped significantly in the past few years which is cause for concern with oversaturating the market...still makes me nervous about our status though.

The UK is pretty much in the same boat...have 8 schools, not enough jobs, and are opening a new school next year. Bad idea.

 

[Emiloo4]

As someone interested in small animal/food this worries me slightly. Here at UF we have certificate programs and they are trying to push for us to track large if we want to do the food certificate. I also shouldn't be allowed near a horse, unless you want it dead and I doubt I'd even do THAT correctly. 🙄 As of right now, they are angrily allowing us to track mixed, but rumor is they are doing away with mixed in the very near future 🙁. So I feel really stuck honestly, but it seems as though we're already on the track of limiting.

 

[503372]

Maybe...I know the stigma still exists amongst the older vets though. I have been refused an externship because I go to an international school---they didn't even care that I was at one that is AVMA accredited or planning to work in the states. I know it has jumped significantly in the past few years which is cause for concern with oversaturating the market...still makes me nervous about our status though.

The UK is pretty much in the same boat...have 8 schools, not enough jobs, and are opening a new school next year. Bad idea.

That's kind of worrying considering I was thinking about attending a vet school in the UK then returning back to the states. :S Are recent graduates finding it difficult to get jobs?

 

[jmo1012]

Lissarae makes a good point. Perhaps the education and tracking could remain as it is (so not adding additional years/debt), then you could choose to take whichever licensing exams you wish.

And jmo, if a vet wants to change focus halfway through their career, they can take another licensing exam. They would need to study and brush up on the medicine, but they should do that anyway if they're changing to an entirely new species 20 years out of vet school.

so i guess with this you wouldnt necessarily be exclusively tracking in school? as in SA people never have to take an LA or equine class (which would make me very happy!) and vice versa? or is someone who decides or needs to switch later on basically required to "teach" themselves? i know we do A LOT of self study in school, but it's done under the guidance of specialists. because if so, this would definitely freak me out as a client. after all, i wouldn't want to see an MD that had previously been practicing in one very specific field of medicine who decided to switch to another without very detailed training (like seeing a neurologist who was previously a urologist, since MDs don't have the whole species differences to deal with)

 

[cdndvm]

I think the idea of limited licensure is probably the way our profession will end up trending towards over the next 10 years. The issue we have is oversupply of veterinarians. Until the AVMA or government restricts seats in vet schools, we are going to continue to put ourselves out of work. Speciality colleges are entertaining the idea of restricting residency positions in an attempt to prevent over saturation of the market with specialists. I think we need a moratorium on accreditation of new schools, and on expanding class sizes (simply to improve universities finding issues). It's almost becoming impossible to become a veterinarian these days with graduating debt skyrocketing, and new graduate salaries decreasing rather then increasing.

Our profession is in a lot of trouble.

 

[shortnsweet]

That's kind of worrying considering I was thinking about attending a vet school in the UK then returning back to the states. :S Are recent graduates finding it difficult to get jobs?

None that I have met at Glasgow have had an issue going back to the States, or any of the EU or commonwealth for that matter because of RCVS/EU licenses on top of AVMA. Plus Glasgow just est a SAVMA chapter last year, so I would be shocked if we lost our AVMA position. It just more makes me sad that that stigma still exists about international schools.

I DO agree something needs to be done about the increasing number of graduates though. The RCVS is currently looking into tracking/specialized degrees as well. They sent a survey to all of the current students to get their take.