Action Alert: MA Levels attempting using PhD level title

[PsyDr]

---

Members do not see this ad.

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]


Re: Opposition to SB 709 which would allow individuals licensed as a Licensed Specialist in School Psychology (LSSP) and who hold the NCSP (National Certified School Psychologist) credential to call themselves 'School Psychologists".



Dear Senate Health and Human Services Committee,



I am writing to express my very strong opposition to SB 709 that would allow individuals licensed as a Licensed Specialist in School Psychology (LSSP) and who hold the NCSP (National Certified School Psychologist) credential to call themselves “School Psychologists". If adopted, Master’s level specialists in school psychology would be able to use the term “Psychologist” in their title/signature block.



“Psychologist” is a protected title. "Psychologist” is a title that infers a professional has been educated at the doctoral level. The purpose of the current Title Act is protection of the public. Protection of the public includes assurances of competence and also avoiding confusion when possible. When people seek out a “Psychologist,” just as when they seek out a “Physician,” they are seeking out a professional with an assumed level of education and competence. The protection of the title allows the public to rely on the title as an assurance of education and competence versus having to review the individual provider's resume and particular training. When vastly different levels of training and expertise are contained within the same title, the purpose of the "protected title" to aid the public with selection of professionals and also its assurance of a level of training and expertise is significantly diminished. In this specific instance, the education and training of a master's level professional and a doctoral level professional are very different. As an analogy, persons holding a master’s degree in public health do not hold themselves out to be physicians and we see no reason why the title psychologist should be diluted. Indeed, we see no valuable function in someone with a master’s degree as holding themselves out to be a psychologist, other than potentially misleading self-representation.



The title "School Psychologists" is defined in Texas law as someone who has a doctoral degree. The Licensed Specialist in School Psychology and National Certified School Psychologist do not require a doctoral degree. If passed, SB 709 would lead to confusion of the public. Your constituents would be lead to believe they were receiving services from someone with a certain level of training (doctoral level) when seeing a Psychologist, however, that would not always be the case. This could function to decrease the public’s confidence in the legal system that allowed two conflicting laws and also decrease confidence in medical and psychological providers that over time could potential lead to individuals not seeking treatment when needed. When your constituents see a psychologist, they should be able to be confident that they are seeing a doctoral-level practitioner. A certificate is not equivalent to a doctoral degree.



In sum, different levels of training and expertise should be designated. Titles are protected for the benefit of the public. Allowing the term "Psychologist" to be utilized by non doctoral level practitioners will be misleading to the public and it will dilute the significance of the term. A change in the rule will lead to direct harm to your constituents.



We very much appreciate the role you are playing to ensure the protection of the public and avoidance of any misrepresentation of educational or skill attainment.



Sincerely,



Add your contact information

 

[Neuropsych2be]

School psychologists educated at the MA or Ed.S. level have been using this title for decades in jurisdictions across the country. Until recently even the APA has not objected to the title "school psychologist" for such persons. Given all the other issues facing the profession, why is this being raised as an issue??

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I just saw this in my e-mail earlier today and hoped that someone would post it here. It is really frustrating how often this issue presents itself. Unfortunately some states have loopholes for "psychologist", and it is a slippery slope from there. "psychologist" is a protected term in the vast majority of states, and there is good reason for it. If this were to go through in TX it starts the path for other non-doctoral level providers outside of the school setting to start their push. I hope that everyone who reads this message takes the 2 minutes to send an e-mail out. Whether you live in Texas or not, it effects all of us.

 

[O Gurl]

School psychologists educated at the MA or Ed.S. level have been using this title for decades in jurisdictions across the country. Until recently even the APA has not objected to the title "school psychologist" for such persons. Given all the other issues facing the profession, why is this being raised as an issue??

It is an issue because mid-level encroachment is practically swamping the field of psychology. I agree with T4C that it creates a slippery slope (or at this point just adds more oil and water to it) that muddles the lines between doctoral and master's level clinicians. They are not psychologists in the raw sense of the term. Period. They should not be called psychologists. Their push to do so is for one reason only, to usurp turf from doctoral trained professionals. I live in TX and as with the on-going independent practice for LPAs debate, I will be writing and raising awareness about this.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

...

 

[O Gurl]

I sent my emails today. Everyone, please do your part. Whether you live in TX or not, please let the people listed in the OP know that psychologists and trainees are not OK with non-doctoral professionals continually DEMANDING titles, positions, duties, etc. that they did not formally pursue. So many discussions on this board are centered around the bleak landscape and poor salaries for our field. It's time to move beyond venting and ACT.

 

[Savagebee]

Im currently a Masters student, and always wonder why a few states allow this.
It took me a fair amount of time to begin to understand what the differnce was in all the alphabet soup titles out there. Adding another title when its not needed seems silly.
When I graduate I can call myself a therapist or a counselor in my state. Even though Ill have an MS in psych, it wont make me a psychologist.

I can relate on a different level. As a bachelors level crisis clinician I had a lot of techs calling themselves counselors, and a lot of bachelors level people calling themselves therapists.

Needless to say it was very confusing for no reason besides people misusing terms, either out of ignorance or crowding in on others without the credentials to back it up.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Im currently a Masters student, and always wonder why a few states allow this.
It took me a fair amount of time to begin to understand what the differnce was in all the alphabet soup titles out there. Adding another title when its not needed seems silly.
When I graduate I can call myself a therapist or a counselor in my state. Even though Ill have an MS in psych, it wont make me a psychologist.

I can relate on a different level. As a bachelors level crisis clinician I had a lot of techs calling themselves counselors, and a lot of bachelors level people calling themselves therapists.

Needless to say it was very confusing for no reason besides people misusing terms, either out of ignorance or crowding in on others without the credentials to back it up.

Exactly. It simply confuses the issue (and subsequently consumers) further, and I don't see the reasoning behind requesting such a title other than to then later attempt future "scope creep," such as by requesting permissions to interpret and report on psychological testing.

 

[Savagebee]

Exactly. It simply confuses the issue (and subsequently consumers) further, and I don't see the reasoning behind requesting such a title other than to then later attempt future "scope creep," such as by requesting permissions to interpret and report on psychological testing.

I really hope its simply an ego issue, without a plan for infringing. I can see the reasoning behind wanting to be called a psychologist, as it sounds more prestigious than therapist or counselor...
that may be because it is more prestigious

I know when I tell people Im going to school to be a therapist they will typically say, "oh, a psychiatrist?"

and I have to respond, "no a therapist, a psychiatrist is a medical doctor"
.....

then they will say "oh, like a psychologist?"

and I again have to go on and on forever.

It would be simpler to say a psychologist, and would sound more impressive, but then Id be lying and appearing as though I was ashamed of my credentials. Hell, Im pretty proud of my bachelors, so I know thats not an issue🙂

I guess people like to inflate their own self worth, its like everyone being an engineer in the last ten years, or housekeeping in hospitals being called "environmental services,"

Its just window dressing on the same old thing that we should be proud of in spite of what its called or thought of by others. We chose our degrees for a reason, and our decision should be enough for us to take pride in, no matter what is behind our signatures.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I don't know how I feel about this, to be honest. On one hand. I'm *all* for protecting the psychologist title for any number of reasons, ranging from professional advocacy to reducing client confusion. On the other hand, I think the School Psych/NCSP issue is a bit of different issue than you would have with other non-doctoral clinicians, as a) School psychologists aren't technically Master's level clinicians (at least specialist level), b) the NCSP is a national credential that is used for license portability and is actually accepted in Texas as means of such; c) school psychologists have (a lot) of training in administering, scoring, and interpreting assessments (IQ, achievement, behavioral/developmental, standardized diagnostic [e.g., ADOS]), which is a notable difference from other non-doctoral clinicians, who aren't trained, licensed, or legally or ethically considered component in assessment, especially interpretation thereof; and d) Texas is AFAIK the only state that doesn't allow school psychologists with an NCSP credential to use it in their reports. I wonder if they allow doctoral school psychs who are licensed psychologists to use the NCSP credential if they have it?

I'm not sure where I stand on this, honestly. I can see both sides.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I don't know how I feel about this, to be honest. On one hand. I'm *all* for protecting the psychologist title for any number of reasons, ranging from professional advocacy to reducing client confusion. On the other hand, I think the School Psych/NCSP issue is a bit of different issue than you would have with other non-doctoral clinicians, as a) School psychologists aren't technically Master's level clinicians (at least specialist level)....

It depends on the state and whether or not the school psychologist was "grandfathered" in at the MS level. There is a push for the specialist degree to be the new minimum for licensure, but there is a great deal of variance in the training and credit totals between the Masters, Specialist, and Doctoral degrees in School Psych.

Friends of mine are school psychologists, and while I recognize they have excellent training in a number of different areas within the school setting, there are still very real limitations in the training. I'm hesitant for any push for a title without the pre-requisite training. There is also a recent push for private practice work by SPs, which is a very slippery slope.

 

[futureapppsy2]

It depends on the state and whether or not the school psychologist was "grandfathered" in at the MS level. There is a push for the specialist degree to be the new minimum for licensure, but there is a great deal of variance in the training and credit totals between the Masters, Specialist, and Doctoral degrees in School Psych.

Friends of mine are school psychologists, and while I recognize they have excellent training in a number of different areas within the school setting, there are still very real limitations in the training. I'm hesitant for any push for a title without the pre-requisite training. There is also a recent push for private practice work by SPs, which wjis a very slippery slope.

It's VERY important to distinguish between doctoral level school psychs and specialist leve school psychs when making distinctions such as these. Doctoral- PhD / PsyD - school psychs are eligible for full licensure as psychologists everywhere but Wyoming and receive training that fills the gaps in specialist training (e.g., psychotherapy, DSM ddx) and has the same required competencies as clinical and counseling psych, albeit limited to children, adolescents, and families.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It looks like the proposed bill is out of committee (voted YES = 9, NO =0), and it will be added to the session calendar. This pretty much means the commitee thinks it is worth having further discussion about the bill. If I remember the Schoolhouse Rock "How A Bill Becomes A Law" episode correctly, now the proposed bill will be heard on the floor and changes proposed. I can't remember if the committee provides formal feedback about changes, or if individual members just share their 2 cents. This is the fun part of the process where every gives their interpretation of the impact of the bill, etc. For those keeping score, this is about halfway through the process (procedurally), though in practical terms it still needs to survive multiple readings, 2 votes, and the governor's signature.

I'm really hoping this gets shot down quickly because the longer it sticks around, the more I worry it may make it through.

 

[stigmata]

...I'm just a bill...only a bill....

 

[FadedC]

For the record I believe that all non doctoral level school psychologists are specialist level regardless of the state. Some schools call the specialist degree a MA or something similar, which leads to endless confusion, but no matter whether the degree is called a MA, a MS, a PD or an EDS, it's still a specialist degree (meaning 2 years of classes and one year of internship). As futureapp said, specialist degree school psychologists do recieve extensive testing training, in fact it's often the main focus of the degree. At my school, specialist degree school psychology students recieve dramatically more testing training then counseling phd students.

But also as a school psych phd student I'm divided on the issue for similar reasons as futureapp. I don't think it would allow for any scope creep, but I can completely understand wanting to protect the title. But at the same time if your trying to avoid client confusion, having the title rules be different in a single state is probably not the way to go.

 

[aagman01]

The APA renewed the Model Act for State Licensure of Psychologists (MLA) in February. This document provides suggestions/recommendations from APA on how states should recognize and license psychologists.

As the APA states:
"As APA policy, the Model Act for State Licensure of Psychologists serves as a prototype for drafting state legislation regulating the practice of psychology. State legislatures are encouraged to use the language of this document and the policies that it espouses as the model for their own state licensure laws."

Several decades ago, APA provided school psychologists trained at the masters/educational specialist level the right to use the term "school psychologists". The language for this right was specifically granted to MA/EDS school psychs in the Model Licensure Act. This language that provides exemption to school psychologists at the MA/EDS levels was renewed by APA in subsequent decades. Most recently, in 2010, APA again passed the language to permit MA/EDS school psychologists the right to use the title "school psychologist".

You may examine this document in the April 2011 issue of the American Psychologist (or I would imagine you could find it online if you wish): American Psychologist, Vol 66, 214-226 doi: 10.1037/a0022655

NASP has a lot about this (as they lobbied heavily to protect the title for Masters/EDS school psychs. For example, see http://www.nasponline.org/standards/apamla.aspx

Not saying I agree, but Texas is just following APA recommendations on this one...........

I sent my emails today. Everyone, please do your part. Whether you live in TX or not, please let the people listed in the OP know that psychologists and trainees are not OK with non-doctoral professionals continually DEMANDING titles, positions, duties, etc. that they did not formally pursue. So many discussions on this board are centered around the bleak landscape and poor salaries for our field. It's time to move beyond venting and ACT.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

There is still the assumption by the vast majority of the public, and frankly the vast majority of other healthcare professionals, that psychologist = doctorally-trained, so having a non-doctorally trained clinician use the title is misleading. Independant practice will be the next push.

 

[aagman01]

I actually support a name change myself for MA/EDS school psychologists (perhaps to school diagnosticians or psychometricians).

However, to say " Independant practice will be the next push" is a bit of a stretch. The APA Model Licensure Act has supported use of the title "school psychologist" for MA/EDS practitioners school practitioners for approximately 40 years. I have not seen a push for independent practice among MA/EDS school psychologists.

Some (very few in number, from my understanding) have gotten work at testing centers or counseling centers - but that involves getting LPC certification, an avenue opened to MAs in counseling as well.

Also, the Model Licensure Act makes clear that MA/EDS school psychologists must refer to themselves as "school psychologists", and specifically states that they can not refer to themselves or their colleagues as "psychologists".

There is still the assumption by the vast majority of the public, and frankly the vast majority of other healthcare professionals, that psychologist = doctorally-trained, so having a non-doctorally trained clinician use the title is misleading. Independant practice will be the next push.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I actually support a name change myself for MA/EDS school psychologists (perhaps to school diagnosticians or psychometricians).

However, to say " Independant practice will be the next push" is a bit of a stretch. The APA Model Licensure Act has supported use of the title "school psychologist" for MA/EDS practitioners school practitioners for approximately 40 years. I have not seen a push for independent practice among MA/EDS school psychologists.

Some (very few in number, from my understanding) have gotten work at testing centers or counseling centers - but that involves getting LPC certification, an avenue opened to MAs in counseling as well.

Also, the Model Licensure Act makes clear that MA/EDS school psychologists must refer to themselves as "school psychologists", and specifically states that they can not refer to themselves or their colleagues as "psychologists".

Actually, in TX, school diagnosticians are their own field, although I can't figure out exactly what it is they *do* or are trained in. Psychometrician wouldn't really work as specialist school psych's are trained and licensed to interpret, not just administer assessments. Currently, specialist level school psych's are called "Licensed Specialists in School Psychology" (LSSPs), which I'd bet often get met with "What?" followed by "Oh, a school psychologist" anyway, so public confusion probably already exists whether or they can use the NCSP credential/title in their reports.

Otherwise, ITA with your post. School psychologists being called school psychologists is hardly new, and FWIW, my cohortmates who came in with specialist degrees recognized their limits of their training, and the greater depth and breadth of training they are receiving as PhD students,

Again, I'm not sure where I stand on this issue, but I think it's important to understand what this bill is and isn't. 🙂

 

[FadedC]

Whatever the new title is it would also probably need to have the word "school" in front of it as well. Because they are not allowed to test or do whatever else outside of a school. Specialist level school psychologists do counseling as well though as well as other activities within the school, so I think that's another reason not to call them psychometricians.

I also don't see any push for independent practice coming. Not only has this been in place for longer then most of us have been alive without any issues, but there really isn't as much of an incentive for specialist level school psychologists to try to push their boundaries. They frequently do quite well financely and in terms of job options, in fact they are often far more worried about non school psychologists trying to take their jobs then the other way around.

 

[aagman01]

Astute point as usual, FadedC.

The average salary of a school psychologist is quite good, $62,500 in 2005. See NASP site on this information, http://www.nasponline.org/about_sp/salaryinfo.aspx

That is based on a 190 day contract (no summers).

So, in essence, a masters level school psych makes a salary approximately equal to the average salary for phd level licensed psychologist. And gets a LOT more time off.

Being that a masters level school psych would be at the bottom of the totem pole if they tried to go into private practice, I forsee little incentive for them to do so.

Does kind of make me wonder why I didn't just do my MA/EDS

Whatever the new title is it would also probably need to have the word "school" in front of it as well. Because they are not allowed to test or do whatever else outside of a school. Specialist level school psychologists do counseling as well though as well as other activities within the school, so I think that's another reason not to call them psychometricians.

I also don't see any push for independent practice coming. Not only has this been in place for longer then most of us have been alive without any issues, but there really isn't as much of an incentive for specialist level school psychologists to try to push their boundaries. They frequently do quite well financely and in terms of job options, in fact they are often far more worried about non school psychologists trying to take their jobs then the other way around.

 

[futureapppsy2]

As a discussion point only, here is the argument from the TX Association of School Psychologist for the bill:

1. Please support Senate Bill 709 which would allow Licensed Specialists in School Psychology to include their national certification on their professional identification, such as business cards, letterhead, and signature blocks.

2. This bill DOES NOT allow for the changing of the title of those professionals who provide psychological services in schools, that title remains, Licensed Specialist in School Psychology.

3. The opposition claims that the public will mislead my non-doctoral level professionals indicating that they are Nationally Certified School Psychologists, however, there has been no evidence of this from members of the public. Instead, members of the public, including teachers, parents, school counselors, school administrators, school librarians, university professors and hospital administrators have provided testimony and public comment that the use of the Nationally Certified School Psychologist credential provides evidence that a professional is indeed "highly qualified", as required by federal law for school professionals.

 

[aequitasveritas]

Increasingly it appears that the real value of this forum may lay in actual action, such as the letter to the APA thread.

Most of the time it's just "us" sitting around arguing with the occasional wing nut, and often there are educational posts that help others.

Yet perhaps the SDN Psych forum may evolve into an action group for clinical psych? Or perhaps there could be a designated thread category for issues that need to be evaluated for action. Sure would be useful.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yet perhaps the SDN Psych forum may evolve into an action group for clinical psych? Or perhaps there could be a designated thread category for issues that need to be evaluated for action. Sure would be useful.

Good point.

SDN as an organization doesn't typically endorse/fund specific political positions (per Lee...the owner of SDN), though I know other forums within SDN have had similar threads about writing in to public officials, national organizations, etc. I think this approach could be a great tool for activism by membership. I formerly had a thread pinned to the top of the forum about political activism...though I think it was unpinned awhile back. A quick search will pop it up for those interested.

 

[nitemagi]

Turf battles over scope of practice sure do suck.
😉😛😀

 

[stigmata]

This isn't about scope of practice, but more similar to if I decided that I was going to call myself a psychiatrist....I would never do that because then everyone would hate me...😱

 

[edieb]

This isn't about scope of practice, but more similar to if I decided that I was going to call myself a psychiatrist....I would never do that because then everyone would hate me...😱

x2

 

[FadedC]

This isn't about scope of practice, but more similar to if I decided that I was going to call myself a psychiatrist....I would never do that because then everyone would hate me...😱

This is my primary issue with the whole specialist degree school psychologist thing as well. In a perfect world it would never have become such a long standing tradition, although now that it has it's a little more complicated.

From what I can see though this bill is a little more complicated then how it was originally presented. There isn't actually any title change occuring, it's just about whether they can list the fact that they have certification from the National Association of School Psychologists (NASP). NASP influences school psychology certification standards in the same way that the APA influences licensed psychology standards so it's obviously an important credential and one that people would want to list. But the credential also contains the words "school psychologist" in it.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The opposition claims that the public will mislead my non-doctoral level professionals indicating that they are Nationally Certified School Psychologists

This is the text that they want to add to the legislation:

(b) The board may not include in rules to prohibit false,
misleading, or deceptive practices by a person regulated by the
board a rule that:
(1) restricts the person's use of any advertising
medium;
(2) restricts the person's personal appearance or use
of the person's voice in an advertisement;
(3) relates to the size or duration of an
advertisement by the person; [or]
(4) restricts the use of a trade name in advertising by
the person; or

(4) restricts the use of a trade name in advertising by
the person; or
(5) restricts the use of a title in advertising by a
person who is permitted to use that title by law.
SECTION 2. Section 501.260, Occupations Code, is amended by
adding Subsection (d) to read as follows:
(d) A person who is licensed under this section and who
holds a Nationally Certified School Psychologist credential may use
the credential "Nationally Certified School Psychologist" and the
title "Licensed Specialist in School Psychology."

So they can advertise that they are a school psychologist right next to someone who advertises they are a counseling psychologist and next to someone who is a neuropsychologist and next to someone who is a clinical psychologist. One of these is not like the other....

How is that NOT confusing to the public? How do they know that one of those is not doctorally-trained? People in the psychology profession get confused by the various titles, how the heck is the public supposed to be able to tease out the difference?

 

[FadedC]

So they can advertise that they are a school psychologist right next to someone who advertises they are a counseling psychologist and next to someone who is a neuropsychologist and next to someone who is a clinical psychologist. One of these is not like the other....

How is that NOT confusing to the public? How do they know that one of those is not doctorally-trained? People in the psychology profession get confused by the various titles, how the heck is the public supposed to be able to tease out the difference?

Well specialist degree school psychologists can't work outside of schools so they have little reason to advertise. This is just about whether or not specialist degree school psychologists can list all of their national credentials in Texas. Currently they cannot, because some of those credentials contain the words school psychologist in them (because that's what it's called in the rest of the world). It's kind of like if you couldn't tell anyone you went to an APA accredited school. These are the crazy things that happen when one state has different title rules then the rest of the country.

As for confusing the public, I'm pretty sure that the fact that there are different title rules in one single state would confuse them way more then anything else.

 

[docjohng]

This couldn't possibly "confuse the public," given that master's level psychologists have been around in many, many states since the APA made its initial licensing push state-by-state in the late 1960s and 1970s. Master's level professionals were often grandfathered in under these licensing changes, because they were already known as "psychologists" in their state.

So, for 30-40 years, this has been standard practice in many states (I don't know the exact number off-hand). Since licensure always has and always will be a state-level issue, the word "psychologist" won't always have the same meaning from state to state. While this isn't ideal, this is the way it is and likely always will be since states always have an incentive to carve out exceptions that meet their own constituents' special interests.

A little history goes a long way to understanding.

John

 

[etaion]

I'm from OK so I know it is a bit different, but Master's level school psychologist seems a bit misleading too, as you have at least 30 hours above a masters before you are called a school psychologist. I do see both sides of the argument, but the argument from this end is that we have to have everything (training, classes in DSM, ADOS, etc.) except the dissertation, and yet people think we only have a Master's degree. Also, we don't work any less hours or do any less work than our peers who have doctorates. I do see both sides of the argument. I am either called a psychometrist (which I have WAY more training than), or am constantly having to correct people who think I am a psychologist or psychiatrist.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm from OK so I know it is a bit different, but Master's level school psychologist seems a bit misleading too, as you have at least 30 hours above a masters before you are called a school psychologist. I do see both sides of the argument, but the argument from this end is that we have to have everything (training, classes in DSM, ADOS, etc.) except the dissertation, and yet people think we only have a Master's degree. Also, we don't work any less hours or do any less work than our peers who have doctorates. I do see both sides of the argument. I am either called a psychometrist (which I have WAY more training than), or am constantly having to correct people who think I am a psychologist or psychiatrist.

There are no additional classes required? The "we are the same and do the same thing, you just did some research" is an argument that is commonly brought up in doctoral v. non-doctoral training, though there is often quite a bit more different. The depth and breadth of the classes are different, the "outside classroom" time is different, the specific focus on psychopathology, the much heavier emphasis on the statistics behind the assessements, etc.

 

[paramour]

There are no additional classes required? The "we are the same and do the same thing, you just did some research" is an argument that is commonly brought up in doctoral v. non-doctoral training, though there is often quite a bit more different. The depth and breadth of the classes are different, the "outside classroom" time is different, the specific focus on psychopathology, the much heavier emphasis on the statistics behind the assessements, etc.

The "school psychologists" in our dept take the same stats, psychopathology, assessment, & a handful of other courses that we clinical folks take in the first 2 years. Of course, there are at least a few clinical profs who disagree w/ them taking the same classes due to a different focus & understanding/grasp of the material, but ....

 

[deleted176373]

I'm from OK so I know it is a bit different, but Master's level school psychologist seems a bit misleading too, as you have at least 30 hours above a masters before you are called a school psychologist.

Yes, but you still have less training than a Ph.D. level psychologist.

I do see both sides of the argument, but the argument from this end is that we have to have everything (training, classes in DSM, ADOS, etc.) except the dissertation, and yet people think we only have a Master's degree.

The dissertation is a big deal, plus if you did everything else, why wouldn't you do the dissertation and get the Ph.D.? There is the assumption that the 30 credit hours is the only difference that exists between a masters and a doctorate... I'm not sure that is true either. It may be in some programs, but I can't speak for all programs.

Also, we don't work any less hours or do any less work than our peers who have doctorates.

The quantity or number of hours that you work have nothing to do with the title you have or have not earned. This is NOT a reason you should be called a psychologist any more than a cook at McDonald's deserves the title of Chef. I am not taking away from the quality of work or amount that you do, but until you have a Doctorate, you haven't earned the title of Psychologist or Doctor.

I do see both sides of the argument. I am either called a psychometrist (which I have WAY more training than), or am constantly having to correct people who think I am a psychologist or psychiatrist.

Another non-reason for being called a psychologist.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

The "school psychologists" in our dept take the same stats, psychopathology, assessment, & a handful of other courses that we clinical folks take in the first 2 years. Of course, there are at least a few clinical profs who disagree w/ them taking the same classes due to a different focus & understanding/grasp of the material, but ....

Are these school psychology master's or doctoral students? I know that a school psych PhD students at my university will take at least a few classes with us clinical folks and vice-versa (usually a stats class or two, child psychopathology/behavior therapy, and/or psychoeducational assessment), which wouldn't seem at all unusual to me.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The "school psychologists" in our dept take the same stats, psychopathology, assessment, & a handful of other courses that we clinical folks take in the first 2 years. Of course, there are at least a few clinical profs who disagree w/ them taking the same classes due to a different focus & understanding/grasp of the material, but ....

A few =/= the same training.

My biggest frustration is people wanting titles, recognition, increase in pay, etc....without putting in the requisite training/time.

 

[wvpsyresearch]

In West Virginia, they still license psychologists at the masters level and these masters level practitioners call themselves "licensed psychologists." These MA/MS clinicians have exactly the same rights doctoral level practitioners do, even when doing testing. I understand that "psychologist" is a protected term, but not all states use the term to refer to doctoral level psychologists. As a doctoral student in West Virginia, I don't like it any better than you do.

It's not changing anytime soon! So if you have a clinical Masters in psychology. The great state of West Virginia Welcomes you! The great thing is that you can use your licensure to snub and rub in the face of people in the WV Psych Association and sit around with member of the licensure board in a Bar in our state capital and make fun of their stupid recommendations. So grow up and get the stick out.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It's not changing anytime soon! So if you have a clinical Masters in psychology. The great state of West Virginia Welcomes you! The great thing is that you can use your licensure to snub and rub in the face of people in the WV Psych Association and sit around with member of the licensure board in a Bar in our state capital and make fun of their stupid recommendations. So grow up and get the stick out.

Thank you for confirming the point I made above.....wanting the title, without putting in the requisite training/time. 🙄

 

[madpsych78]

I received my Specialist degree in School Psychology, and I have an NCSP. When I was in graduate school, many of my courses overlapped with Clinical Psych students. The main differences that I gathered was that they spent more time on psychopathology and psychotherapy, while we spent more time on assessment, interventions and learning about the school system. We did a little counseling, but that was more to teach things like social skills strategies or coping skills rather than treating a psychological disorder. I think that one thing the Clinical Psychs lack compared to School Psychs is the knowledge of the school system and special education laws. Clinical psychs probably don't know a lot about Response to Intervention. I'm not saying that that is bad, it just means that clinical psychs know clinical psych stuff and school psychs know school psych stuff. It means that Clinical Psychs need to collaborate with School Psychs. It also means, however, that there is a lot of overlap between our two fields, hence the confusion.

In my eight years of working in the schools, I have never referred to myself as a "psychologist" but as a "school psychologist." I know that with my Specialist degree I am limited as to what I can do and I can only practice in the schools. That is why I plan to go back in fall 2012 and get my PhD in either School or Clinical Psychology so that more options are available to me. I don't know exactly how a PhD will be different from a Specialist program aside from the dissertation (not saying it won't be different), but I am hoping that I can persuade my professors to spend more of my practica in clinic and hospital settings rather than school settings since I definitely have plenty of experience in the school setting.

I am not an "educational" or "school diagnostician." In Illinois, educational diagnosticians typically have special education teaching backgrounds and are responsible for collecting academic achievement data through administration of standardized achievement tests. They typically share their information with the school psychologist who makes decisions regarding special education eligibility. More recently, some diagnosticians have evolved into "intervention specialists" who are responsible for implementing interventions and collecting progress monitoring data. In a way, it's not too far removed from their original role as special education teachers.

I am not a "psychometrist" or a technician. Psychometrists administer and score tests. I am trained to administer, score, and interpret various cognitive, processing, social/emotional, and achievement assessments. I take into consideration the academic, developmental, and health history, observations in multiple settings within the school, interviews with teacher, student, and parent and so forth. This data is used to make educational eligibility decisions...I don't diagnose DSM-IV disorders.

I am not a "psychotherapist." As stated before, I am trained to provide some school-based counseling services, but I am not trained to treat mental disorders in the same way that a clinical psychologist is trained.

Frankly, the position I support on whether school psychologists can be called "school psychologists" at the Specialist level is dependent on the best interests of the population that we are serving. I'm pretty disappointed that most of the arguments on this board have to do with prestige rather than how having or not having the title would affect their clients. The concern that NASP has regarding the MLA has to do with being able to provide school psychological services to help children, and whether that is (negatively) affected by not being able to call oneself a "school psychologist." The reality is, most school psychologists currently do not have a doctorate, and if the changes to the MLA had passed, the provision of school psychological services would be spread out thinly to the few doctoral-level school psychologists that existed, which would affect the school-based mental health services that could be provided.

Ideally, I would love to have a requirement that all school psychologists must have a doctorate in the future. In reality, there are some things that would have to happen first. The biggest being that specialist-level school psychology programs need to fade away and essentially grow obsolete (similiar to how masters-level programs are falling by the wayside) thereby paving the way for an increase in the number of doctoral-level programs. If more prospective school psychologists were then relegated to pursuing their degree at a doctoral level, we would then churn out more doctoral-level psychologists, and then any changes to the MLA language would not have as much of an adverse effect on providing services to children in the schools.

 

[cara susanna]

It's not changing anytime soon! So if you have a clinical Masters in psychology. The great state of West Virginia Welcomes you! The great thing is that you can use your licensure to snub and rub in the face of people in the WV Psych Association and sit around with member of the licensure board in a Bar in our state capital and make fun of their stupid recommendations. So grow up and get the stick out.

You are a credit to the field. 🙄

 

[wvpsyresearch]

Thank you for confirming the point I made above.....wanting the title, without putting in the requisite training/time. 🙄

Actually in WV to be a licensed psychologist you must complete specific clinical requirements in your training and pass the EPPP to be licensed. I just find all this so silly I mean are people really thatpretentious? No one on here can give me any real justification other than thedifference they paid for their education. I am not clinical and I don’t plan toapply for licensure; because, guess what? I’m an academic and when I get myPh.D. I don’t plan on practicing so are you honestly saying I am not allowed tocall myself a psychologist? Everything this post is about is why stuck upclinical people are fragmenting the law and compromising the ability ofindividuals to receive treatment; especially in rural areas. I get it you wantto be call “Doctor”, and if you have the training then you own that title butif you have training needed to meet the needs of the public then you should beallowed to hold licensure. This is all getting to complicated and at what costand how much more do you think people are going to put up with, and how manylabeling laws do you want to pass before the legislators who approves thesemeasures says “Whoa let’s take a minute to look at this before we mess it upany further.” That is something you don’t want because the question will beasked, “what are the real differences in training other than research andexperience? What is the economic impact?” It will always be cheaper to pay forMA level staff over Doctoral level staff. If an MA level psychologist in WestVirginia can be trained to give assessments and perform diagnostics with thesame level of accuracy as the doctoral level psychologists who supervised themthen isn’t it more cost effective to hire Masters level clinicians at a lowercost than to waste money on a clinical doctor? If insurance and public health fundingsources are going to be to slashing the amount they spend on mental healthcarethen there is going to have to be some restructuring in the system in which clinicalpsychologist work. Hospitals are not going to hire 5 doctors if they can hire 2doctors to supervise 6 treatment teams of MA level clinicians. Maybe we need toseparate this and say listen, “Those of you who got your MD, those of you whocouldn’t cut it in med school and got your Ph.D., and those of you who couldn’tdo research that got your Psy.D. you can call yourself “Doctors” and demandwhatever salary you feel your “protected” title has earned you. However, weneed psychologists whose sole purpose is to only perform clinical functions andhave training to do their job accurately and with the same skill sets as youbut at a lower cost so as to provide health services to as many people as ourbudgets allow. You are welcome to join us in our efforts as long as you havethe required clinical training to be licensed to provide treatment and mentalhealth services to the public.”

 

[FadedC]

I bet you paid more than I did (full scholarships to undergrad, assistantships to grad). Here are a few differences:

- Admissions standards
- Curriculum
- Research requirements
- Clinical supervision/role differences
- Internship and postdocs
- Competition
- Assessment training. . .the true analogy to school psych assessments is ped neuropsychology. The gulf between content knowledge in school psych and ped neuro is massive. Brain and behavior, norms development, test theory, differential diagnoses, etc. . .

Well note that WVpsy has a clinical masters and not a school psych degree. So I'm not sure that addressing school psych is relevent to him.

With that being said, most of what you say is pretty accurate about the differences between a specialist and PhD in school psych in my program, except maybe for the part about paying for education. You can easily get funding as a specialist level school psych, I've even heard of cases where the state will pay for specialist levels if they promise to work for them for a few years.

Needless to say however doctoral level school psychologists do recieve training in all of the assessment things that you mentioned.

 

[aagman01]

Ummm.....except you don't "do everything" except the dissertation". EDS students complete 70 credits, phd students in school psychology typically complete 110-120 credits. Phd students typically are engaged in research, EDS students typically are not. PhD students typically hold positions as research/teaching assistants, EDS students typically do not. PhD students typically complete multiple practicum outside of school settings, EDS students typically do not. PhD students typically attain competency in both assessment and therapy, EDS students typically attain competency in educational assessment.

I'm from OK so I know it is a bit different, but Master's level school psychologist seems a bit misleading too, as you have at least 30 hours above a masters before you are called a school psychologist. I do see both sides of the argument, but the argument from this end is that we have to have everything (training, classes in DSM, ADOS, etc.) except the dissertation, and yet people think we only have a Master's degree. Also, we don't work any less hours or do any less work than our peers who have doctorates. I do see both sides of the argument. I am either called a psychometrist (which I have WAY more training than), or am constantly having to correct people who think I am a psychologist or psychiatrist.

 

[thepug]

Ummm.....except you don't "do everything" except the dissertation". EDS students complete 70 credits, phd students in school psychology typically complete 110-120 credits. Phd students typically are engaged in research, EDS students typically are not. PhD students typically hold positions as research/teaching assistants, EDS students typically do not. PhD students typically complete multiple practicum outside of school settings, EDS students typically do not. PhD students typically attain competency in both assessment and therapy, EDS students typically attain competency in educational assessment.

And why do we have ED psych students...? Anyone?

 

[FadedC]

And why do we have ED psych students...? Anyone?

Well techinically there are two completely different types of students who are called ed psych students. There are specialist degree school psych students, which have no official naming standard for what schools call their degree (which creates endless confusion on these boards) and who are sometimes called ed psych students. Then there are doctoral level ed psych students who do high level educational research but who will not be licensed to practice.

For doctoral level ed psych, you could say that it is to school psychology what experimental psych is to clinical psychology.

 

[mikem9022]

I believe one should also work towards the highest degree in thier chosen fields, I hope to study school psychology at the doctoral level but with that being said the title issue seems to be a mute point for 40 years or more. The latest revision of the MLA was supported by a large majority, and these are the exact words related to school psychology practice:

"Nothing in this act shall be construed to prevent (cite relevant state education authority or statutory provisions) from credentialing individuals to provide school psychological services in those settings that are under the purview of the state education agency. Such individuals shall be restricted in their practice and the use of the title so conferred, which must include the word "school", to employment within those settings.
This provision is not intended to restrict the activities of licensed psychologists."

From my research about school psychology unless one is also licensed at the doctoral level I don't see any evidence of "encroachment" or whatever some of you folks talk about... It seemed pretty clear to me that if I ever wanted to practice outside of schools I would also need to enroll in a program that would allow me to be a licensed psychologist.

School Psychologists practice in schools, that's why its called "school" psychology. It seems that "encroachment" or "creep" or whatever terms are used have more to do with all the various licensed therapists at the masters level (LCSW, LPC, etc) providing psychological services except evaluation.