Advice for application

[BlackScorpion]

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Long time reader first time to post. Currently, a third year, interested in anesthesiology. I was just wondering if the general rule for step 1 scores in the sticky section still applies. That is, how many programs should I apply to with a Step 1 score of 225, some honors in third year and currently working on research unrelated to anesthesia. Going to a state medical school with no anesthesiology department (and no good advisors). Any advice would be welcome.

 

[toughlife]

Long time reader first time to post. Currently, a third year, interested in anesthesiology. I was just wondering if the general rule for step 1 scores in the sticky section still applies. That is, how many programs should I apply to with a Step 1 score of 225, some honors in third year and currently working on research unrelated to anesthesia. Going to a state medical school with no anesthesiology department (and no good advisors). Any advice would be welcome.

You are in great shape. Do an away rotation to get your letters of recommendation and apply.

 

[Idiopathic]

Im a DO with good numbers and I applied to 28, got 16 interviews and went on 9. I think even the best candidates apply to 16-18 programs, just to make sure they get some quality opportunities.

 

[BlackScorpion]

Im a DO with good numbers and I applied to 28, got 16 interviews and went on 9. I think even the best candidates apply to 16-18 programs, just to make sure they get some quality opportunities.

Would you then recommend that I apply to at least 30 programs?

 

[Idiopathic]

Would you then recommend that I apply to at least 30 programs?

Id recommend that everyone apply to that many, simply because there are at least that many excellent programs out there.

 

[SleepIsGood]

BlackScorpion

I agree with the above.

Personally, i've always been a firm believer in getting AWESEOME LOR's and establishing a great relationship with attendings/residents at the institution you want to go to. As a result, try to get an away elective in RIGHT NOW at the place you want to go. Yes, it can be a double edge sword, so mk sure you dont walk in there and say something stupid.

Otherwise, I say you are off to a good start!

Another thing...Join the ASA. Not trying to sell you on that idea. But you really do get a LOT of info (newsletters and journals of Anesthesiology). What better way to learn about Anesthesiology 👍

 

[patau13]

It sounds like you are on the right track to matching. I would do aways. I think applying to 30 programs is a good number, just remember to apply to a number of backups as well and go on interviews at some of your backups even if you get interviews at all 30 programs. 😀

 

[jennyboo]

Long time reader first time to post. Currently, a third year, interested in anesthesiology. I was just wondering if the general rule for step 1 scores in the sticky section still applies. That is, how many programs should I apply to with a Step 1 score of 225, some honors in third year and currently working on research unrelated to anesthesia. Going to a state medical school with no anesthesiology department (and no good advisors). Any advice would be welcome.

Having just gone through the match, here's what it would look like from my perspective...

1) 225 and some honors - You definitely will match, and probably have strong chance of matching at some pretty high-end academic programs. Don't be afraid to include some top programs in your list of places to apply.

2) State school, no department - Shouldn't be a problem. A couple of things:

--> Do what you can and use the next year to start asking for some letters of recommendation, particularly from medicine, surgery, or ICU rotations (pediatrics, OB probably also decent). Collect some strong ones (you don't need to use all of them).

--> Schedule one or two away electives, and see about getting an anesthesiologist letter of recommendation during one of these. This is not required, but considered helpful.

--> Don't forget that even though you have no residency department, you still have anesthesiologists around at your state school. One or two of them may prove more valuable than it appears.

3) How many to apply to - One of my advisors suggested applying 20, scheduling 15 interviews, and ranking 10 programs for a high-midrange allopathic student. I had a step score of low 230s and no honors (not too different), and found applying to 30 to be a waste of money. I got more invitations than I could handle and was worn out with just 12 interviews at anesthesiology departments (plus five more internships).

 

[Magnus67]

Thanks for all the great tips you guys, as my third year draws to a close, I'm sure I'll be hitting this forum up for a lotta of info. My Grades and Step 1 situation is very similair to the OP, but I am doing a Couples Match with my Fiancee who is going OB|GYN. She has did really well on the boards and has great grades so will be super competitive for OB.

In your opinions does this change how many places I or I guess We should apply to. Right now I was planning on about 28-30, or am I being paranoid. The last couple of Couples Matchers at my school were all like FP\IM combos and they applied and stayed in the Midwest.(Im from South Dakota.) so its hard to judge from their experience.

thanks

 

[Idiopathic]

She has did really well on the boards and has great grades so will be super competitive for OB.

This could help you a lot.

 

[jennyboo]

Thanks for all the great tips you guys, as my third year draws to a close, I'm sure I'll be hitting this forum up for a lotta of info. My Grades and Step 1 situation is very similair to the OP, but I am doing a Couples Match with my Fiancee who is going OB|GYN. She has did really well on the boards and has great grades so will be super competitive for OB.

In your opinions does this change how many places I or I guess We should apply to. Right now I was planning on about 28-30, or am I being paranoid. The last couple of Couples Matchers at my school were all like FP\IM combos and they applied and stayed in the Midwest.(Im from South Dakota.) so its hard to judge from their experience.

thanks

I did not couples match, so the usefulness of anything I say in that area is limited. 😳 But I do think anesthesia and OB are not the worst or most difficult specialties to couples match in, and if you have scores/grades like the above, you should have no problems if you choose 3 or 4 geographic locations to target.

With 3-4 geographic areas to target, seems to me that around 25-30 applications should be plenty to choose from (that's around 7-8 residency programs per geographic area -- more than enough, you will almost definitely get enough interviews in each area as long as you include the full range of academic and community programs).

That's assuming both of you will get Invites >>>>>> Rejects (very small number of rejects) for interviews. Of 29 programs, I had something like 22 invites, 2 rejects, and 5 I never heard from -- leaving more than enough interviews in each of my three geographical areas (NYC, Boston, and Philly -- all considered "competitive" locations whatever that means) plus a few outliers.

 

[BlackScorpion]

Thanks for all the great advice. So with 20-30 applications, what should one's strategy be in terms of applying to top, mid-tier, and less competitive programs. For example, for jenny, idio, and tough did you folks apply mostly to top programs? Or did you apply broadly. Also, I might be opening a can of worms here, but whats the best resource for checking just how competitive a program is. Again, thanks for all the advice. You folks are making up for my school's lack of advisors.

 

[burntcrispy]

I agree that you are in pretty good shape.

I also couples matched with my fiancee going into medicine. I think we applied to about 12 programs and ended up going on 6 interviews. We were both very competative for our fields and got our first choice. I would apply to programs that you find interesting and then sort out where you want to actually interview once the offers start coming in. You should get interviews at some top programs with your scores.

Good luck.

 

[Trisomy13]

Would you then recommend that I apply to at least 30 programs?

my advice is to apply to more than you think is reasonable. factor in that you will not get an interview from every progam, you will get some great interviews at programs you would otherwise not expect, you will get rejected from some programs you think will be sure things, and really, you never know what a program is like until you go visit. i encourage anyone to see as many places as possible financially and physically. i was surprised more than once at how much i liked a program i expected not to, and vice versa. i applied to 40+, and after i saw who responded, trimmed my list accordingly to fit in my schedule.

 

[Magnus67]

Thanks a lot for the advice,

keep it coming

 

[iron]

For the applicant with 220s for Step 1, some honors and research, thirty programs is too many. Narrow down your search to areas in which you'd like to live, the type of program you want (big, small, academic atmosphere, trauma v. transplants, etc.) and your relative competitiveness related to the program in question. If you're unsure about your qualifications for a particular questions, you can call and ask. They may tell you last year's avg. Step 1 score or what their cut-off is, profile of typical applicant.

If you schedule 30 interviews, it will cost you a lot of money and wear you out. By the end of the season you'll be cancelling interviews. In many instances, applicants cancel at the last minute leaving us (programs) unable to offer the interview spot to another worthy soul.

 

[Trisomy13]

If you schedule 30 interviews, it will cost you a lot of money and wear you out. By the end of the season you'll be cancelling interviews. In many instances, applicants cancel at the last minute leaving us (programs) unable to offer the interview spot to another worthy soul.

Applying to 30 programs does not equal scheduling 30 interviews. I applied to more than 30, heard from 20+, and scheduled around 15. A couple of programs offered dates I could not or would not schedule due to conflicts.

I'm of the school of thought that it is worth the extra application fees to cast a wide net, and then see what you catch. You can always throw back the ones you decide against (for whatever reason) later. And I don't mean canceling at the last minute, but declining interviews when they are offered if you are already comfortable with what you have.

 

[jennyboo]

I actually think that applying to 30 programs IS too many for a candidate with the above stats. I applied to 29 and regretted it, as I got invited to 22 interviews and ended up cancelling 10 of them. That's a lot of extra money, as well as administrative time to manage your schedule, email coordinators to cancel, and so on.

I chose 4 geographic areas I wanted to focus on (Boston, New York, Philadelphia, California), applied to programs in each of these areas, and then arbitrarily added a few other programs that simply interested me (Yale, Duke, UNC, Dartmouth, JHU). I referred to the FAQ on this board which points to http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=48717 as a sample list of "top programs" and found that about half of mine were on the list, the other half were "local" programs that I threw in just because they were in my three geographic locations.

The breakdown is that I got invited to interview at 5/6 Massachusetts programs (didn't hear from B&W but got all others), 7/7 NYC programs, 3/4 Philadelphia programs (didn't hear from Drexel, which was a "local" program), and 2/3 California programs (no from Stanford), plus 4 more programs that weren't in any of those areas. WAY TOO MANY TO HANDLE. I cancelled all of my Philly interviews except for UPenn, half of my NYC interviews, and all the California interviews.

End result is I interviewed at 12 residency programs (8 were on the "great programs" list I linked to above, 4 were not), ranked 8, and matched at my favorite program (which I had dumbly listed at #2 on my list but am really glad I didn't get #1). If I were to do it again knowing how pleasantly surprised I'd be at the number of interviews you really can get as an applicant, I'd trim my applications down to 20 programs knowing which "local" programs really wouldn't suit me.

Also, one thing worth noting is that at some of the "local" programs where I interviewed, the population of other students being interviewed was totally different from my background -- number of international and foreign medical graduates and other applicants with significant hurdles to overcome was >50%. I did not start seeing a majority of students from a similar background to mine (average grades, good boards, average allo school) until I reached Yale. Bottom line is that YOU REALLY WILL INTERVIEW AT STRONG ACADEMIC PROGRAMS if that's what you want, and there are some small programs in the middle of nowhere that you probably won't need to spend time interviewing at just to find that you have no desire to rank them.

Anyway, since before going into applying you don't know exactly what you want, it's probably tempting to apply to 30 programs.... but I think if you can choose what you want (say, choose "only" the better known programs or those with the bigger names -- which with your grades should be definitely fine for you) and pare the list down to 20, you'd have few regrets. Take yourself out to dinner with the extra money.

 

[Trisomy13]

...there are some small programs in the middle of nowhere that you probably won't need to spend time interviewing at just to find that you have no desire to rank them.

however, you might interview at one of those small programs in the middle of nowhere and realize it's perfect for you, regardless of your preconceived notions.


😉

 

[Sammich81]

What if you're geographically restricted? I want to go to Cleveland. Did any of you apply to Case or the Clinic? From what I've heard talking to others, they're strong but not super competitive like MGH and the like. I already have a rotation at the Clinic in October, sort of against the advice of some attendings. I can't schedule one at Case b/c my school restricts the amount of time you can spend in a certain specialty.

But anyway, I was in the top 20% of my class after preclinical years, have gotten A's so far in third year. Step 1 is good enough for an interview almost anywhere according to 4th years who matched. Will a very high Step 1 carry any weight or is it all even once you get to the interviews?

 

[jennyboo]

What if you're geographically restricted? I want to go to Cleveland. Did any of you apply to Case or the Clinic? From what I've heard talking to others, they're strong but not super competitive like MGH and the like. I already have a rotation at the Clinic in October, sort of against the advice of some attendings. I can't schedule one at Case b/c my school restricts the amount of time you can spend in a certain specialty.

But anyway, I was in the top 20% of my class after preclinical years, have gotten A's so far in third year. Step 1 is good enough for an interview almost anywhere according to 4th years who matched. Will a very high Step 1 carry any weight or is it all even once you get to the interviews?

Don't know about Cleveland programs, but your boards and grades should be more than enough to get you an interview offer at these and many other programs, if you let them know you're very interested in going. After that is anyone's guess -- they are as much looking for people who would fit in their program as you are looking for a place where you'd actually want to work. Once you get the interview, I think grades/boards do matter but FIT becomes an even more important factor.

I wouldn't worry about not doing two aways in general anesthesiology. By the start of my second away, I was sick of it. 😴 However, you might also be able to get around it by choosing a different elective in which you would still meet the department (such as SICU, if anesthesiologists are there, or pain, or something like that).

 

[blue helmet]

hey awesome post! def. puts things in a more tangible perspective... would you mind adding when you matched and if you felt research in anesth. was important? thanks!

I actually think that applying to 30 programs IS too many. I applied to 29 and regretted it, as I got invited to 22 interviews and ended up cancelling 10 of them. That's a lot of extra money, as well as administrative time to manage your schedule, email coordinators to cancel, and so on.

I chose 4 geographic areas I wanted to focus on (Boston, New York, Philadelphia, California), applied to programs in each of these areas, and then arbitrarily added a few other programs that simply interested me (Yale, Duke, UNC, Dartmouth, JHU). I referred to the FAQ on this board which points to http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=48717 as a sample list of "top programs" and found that about half of mine were on the list, the other half were "local" programs that I threw in just because they were in my three geographic locations.

The breakdown is that I got invited to interview at 5/6 Massachusetts programs (didn't hear from B&W but got all others), 7/7 NYC programs, 3/4 Philadelphia programs (didn't hear from Drexel, which was a "local" program), and 2/3 California programs (no from Stanford), plus 4 more programs that weren't in any of those areas. WAY TOO MANY TO HANDLE. I cancelled all of my Philly interviews except for UPenn, half of my NYC interviews, and all the California interviews.

End result is I interviewed at 12 residency programs (8 were on the "great programs" list I linked to above, 4 were not), ranked 8, and matched at my favorite program (which I had dumbly listed at #2 on my list but am really glad I didn't get #1). If I were to do it again knowing how pleasantly surprised I'd be at the number of interviews you really can get as an applicant, I'd trim my applications down to 20 programs knowing which "local" programs really wouldn't suit me.

Also, one thing worth noting is that at some of the "local" programs where I interviewed, the population of other students being interviewed was totally different from my background -- number of international and foreign medical graduates and other applicants with significant hurdles to overcome was >50%. I did not start seeing a majority of students from a similar background to mine (average grades, good boards, average allo school) until I reached Yale. Bottom line is that YOU REALLY WILL INTERVIEW AT STRONG ACADEMIC PROGRAMS if that's what you want, and there are some small programs in the middle of nowhere that you probably won't need to spend time interviewing at just to find that you have no desire to rank them.

Anyway, since before going into applying you don't know exactly what you want, it's probably tempting to apply to 30 programs.... but I think if you can choose what you want (say, choose "only" the better known programs or those with the bigger names -- which with your grades should be definitely fine for you) and pare the list down to 20, you'd have few regrets. Take yourself out to dinner with the extra money.

 

[jennyboo]

hey awesome post! def. puts things in a more tangible perspective... would you mind adding when you matched and if you felt research in anesth. was important? thanks!

I'm an M-4 for another month, so I matched this year.

Research was not important. I had no significant research (by that I mean that I can say I've been involved in a couple of projects but have no results or publications), and neither do the majority of candidates.

If you do have significant research, or, say, a publication in Anesthesiology, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets you an interview you were otherwise borderline for. But that's not most people, and all else being equal, you will be fine without.

Originally posted by black scorpion.
what should one's strategy be in terms of applying to top, mid-tier, and less competitive programs. For example, for jenny, idio, and tough did you folks apply mostly to top programs? Or did you apply broadly.

I think you're probably safe applying to top programs with some strong mid-tier programs thrown in, as long as you have a well rounded application and well written letters. I applied for the entire range of "top, mid-tier and less competitive" programs, and really regret the extra money and effort I spent applying to the less competitive programs that made up the 10 interviews I cancelled and 3 interviews I attended but found too dreary to rank. You probably wouldn't have any problem getting interviews at most of the programs listed in the FAQ's "Top programs in anesthesiology" thread linked above.

Get your application submitted to ERAS early (like, the first week or September) -- that helps you get interviews you wouldn't otherwise get if you submitted the application, say, right before the deadline in November. Also, don't be like me -- I submitted the application the first week of September, heard nothing for a week, got nervous and applied to ten more programs -- all of whose interviews I ended up canceling or declining.

 

[KluverBucy]

What if you're geographically restricted? I want to go to Cleveland. Did any of you apply to Case or the Clinic? From what I've heard talking to others, they're strong but not super competitive like MGH and the like. I already have a rotation at the Clinic in October, sort of against the advice of some attendings. I can't schedule one at Case b/c my school restricts the amount of time you can spend in a certain specialty.

i applied/interviewed at the Clinic. big place, will def work hard there. the payoff is that you will be a slick anesthesiologist. probably not one of the "top" programs, but def a very good one. if it weren't for the city, i would be at the Clinic right now. as far as Case, i got an interview, but declined. i hear that the residents are probably more happy there, and yet still a great place to train in cleveland.

however, i'm not so sure about you doing a rotation there UNLESS you have already done a month of anesthesia prior to that, IMHO. i'm sure your school would let you do 2 months total in anesthesia? i would do a "practice" month and get some exposure to common drugs, intubations, IVs, etc. then at least you won't look like a deer in headlights when you show up to the Clinic. then make sure you get to know the basics and know common side effects/mechanisms of the COMMON drugs used before you show up at the Clinic. you will look like an all-star. if you can only do 1 month of anesthesia (i.e. no practice month), then make sure you do it at an academic institution where you can get a good letter...that is the ultimate goal. this is what i think after just going thru this over the past year.

ps. if you disagree with all of this, that's fine, but at the very least, i wouldn't do a rotation at the Clinic and at Case, cuz what if you have bad months at both? then guess what...you won't be in cleveland. i'd do a rotation at one of them, get a good letter, and you will be fine with the other. if you suck at one of them, you'll at least have a good chance at the other. 😉

 

[Sammich81]

i applied/interviewed at the Clinic. big place, will def work hard there. the payoff is that you will be a slick anesthesiologist. probably not one of the "top" programs, but def a very good one. if it weren't for the city, i would be at the Clinic right now. as far as Case, i got an interview, but declined. i hear that the residents are probably more happy there, and yet still a great place to train in cleveland.
QUOTE]

Thanks for the insightful suggestions...
and hey, what's wrong with Cleveland? CLEVELAND ROCKS! in the words of Drew Carey. Yeah right. I was there at the end of March (wild spring break, I know) and it definitely snowed. Did I mention that I hate the cold?

 

[KluverBucy]

i applied/interviewed at the Clinic. big place, will def work hard there. the payoff is that you will be a slick anesthesiologist. probably not one of the "top" programs, but def a very good one. if it weren't for the city, i would be at the Clinic right now. as far as Case, i got an interview, but declined. i hear that the residents are probably more happy there, and yet still a great place to train in cleveland.
QUOTE]

Thanks for the insightful suggestions...
and hey, what's wrong with Cleveland? CLEVELAND ROCKS! in the words of Drew Carey. Yeah right. I was there at the end of March (wild spring break, I know) and it definitely snowed. Did I mention that I hate the cold?

hmmm, cleveland. you must be referring to "The Mistake by the Lake"

just not my cup of tea 😉