Advice for considering PhD-to-MD over my MSTP acceptances

[ablavar]

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Hi everyone - I was wondering if any recent PhD-to-MD medical school applicants could comment on my situation.

I am looking to complete my PhD in Bioengineering. I am currently holding an MSTP acceptance at top 15 school and am on the waiting list at two top 10 schools. I absolutely loved my interview weekends at all of these schools. All seem to have strong support for bioengineering students and have very impactful scientists in my specific field of research.

However, I have been strongly considering completing my PhD at the institution I am currently working at. I worked here for the latter 1.5 years of my undergrad, and 1 year of post-bacc right now. Importantly, the project I am working on right now is going extremely well. I am looking at 2 first author publications in the next few months, and several more if I choose to stay and continue this project. I have been included on 3 provisional patents over the past few years, including 1 that has specifically come through my project.

My mentor here has been absolutely wonderful. He has been very supportive of my decision to apply MSTP while working with him. He has stated he would love to have me on board as a graduate student and has funding for me if I choose to do so. He is also very aware and supportive of me re-applying MD after I do my PhD with him, including the time constraints that come with that. This laboratory also works very closely with the neurosurgery and interventional radiology departments, so my research experience here would not be very divorced from the clinical side of things.

Here is my dilemma. I have a great mentor, project, and laboratory environment right now. I am quite confident I would enjoy doing my PhD here. My career goals are still to practice as an MD/PhD. I would have strong support from my mentor and the physicians that collaborate with us.

But, I am not sure if I should take my MSTP acceptance and run with it. Timeline-wise, doing my PhD here would involve entering the PhD program in Fall 2013, giving me 3.5 years of research with my mentor and (ideally) 2-3 first author publications when I enter. I am entering with a coursework MS from this institution, so my coursework requirements are 2/3 done. In the (absolute) best case scenarios, I would re-apply MD in Summer 2014 or 2015, to matriculate in Fall 2015 or 2016.

The advantages of the MSTP are clear. Tuition waived, strong administrative support, great research, a streamlined path for the next decade. I would likely have to re-take my 38P MCAT before I re-apply. But, I am not sure if the support I have for my research right now is something I can just ignore. My mentor wants me to publish as much as possible and to succeed in this field. I work extremely well with him. I have a ton of enthusiasm for my project. Location-wise, the MSTP I am accepted at is not the best, and the waiting lists I am on are not guaranteed for MSTP. The mentorship I would get at these institutions might also not be as strong as what I have right now.

In short: I am debating leaving a laboratory environment I truly enjoy working in with strong support and re-applying MD later, versus taking an MSTP acceptance now. I would appreciate any advice.

 

[miz]

Congratulations on having such amazing choices!
The financial advantages of an MSTP are significant. Do you have parental support or would you take out loans (up to 200k+ without significant financial aid)? Does your current institution have an MD/PhD program or MSTP? If so, have you talked to the program director about your chances of admission?
Your current mentor does not stop being a mentor to you after you leave; it can be highly advantageous to make contacts and network through several institutions. Also, you've already worked at your lab for 2.5 years (3 by the time you leave, if you leave), and will leave with many publications. Would you learn new things in 2 more years that you have not already learned? On the other hand, what might you be able to publish with two more years with your mentor and how high impact are these publications?

 

[ablavar]

Thanks for your response, miz. Financially it is a clear gamble. I will likely be relying on any financial aid I am given and will take the rest out on loans. If I stay here, I am confident I will be able to secure funding for my PhD. My institution is a top ranked MSTP, but transferring is likely not an option, as I assume it is in most places. Another student in my lab was in a similar position that I was in, tried to transfer internally over the years, but was rejected. The bioengineering program here is great, but the MSTP does not seem particularly friendly to bioengineering students as well as in-house applicants.

Project-wise, there is plenty for me to still do and learn. I have only submitted 1 manuscript so far. I switched projects about the start of my post-bacc year, and the project I am working on right now had a steep learning curve. But, if my project goes as well as it is, there would be several more, and these would be extremely high impact in my niche field of research as well as clinically. This is what has me so enthusiastic to stay in this lab. There are also several projects in the pipeline that would be easy publications provided I stay here and spend the time. The best part about my lab is that we have strong ties with clinical departments that are looking for new protocols that our lab develops that they can adapt.

It is tough for me to get over the financial disadvantage. But, I think the gamble in my alternative also holds. I feel the highest probability of me having a good mentor, getting publications, and building the skills and enthusiasm for my career would be here.

 

[SBR249]

Do you think you can establish a collaboration of some sort with a lab at the NIH where you can split your time between the two labs? If so you can try to forge an individual partnership as part of the graduate partnership program (GPP) at the NIH. You can apply for the next MD/PhD GPP application cycle as a track 3 student which will let you do your PhD first then fund you for an MSTP slot at a participating MSTP (past schools that participate for track 3 include Hopkins, UChicago, and Harvard though only partially).

Alternatively, if there's an MSTP at your current institution, consider talking with the PD about joining the MSTP when you formally start your PhD. Some programs are amenable to letting their students do the PhD first, particularly if that student already has a good track record at the institution and doing that PhD first can offer significant time benefits. If you do want to try to pursue this, do not start your PhD before consulting with the MSTP as I have seen programs that specifically prohibit graduate students who have started a PhD at the same institution from joining the MSTP.

 

[DrBroker]

first of all, congrats on having such wonderful achievements. you are extremely lucky to have such excellent support. It sounds like you are doing very well as a scientist, and will most likely continue to excel. Have you considered doing the PhD only? May I know why you wish to add on the MD?

 

[ablavar]

Do you think you can establish a collaboration of some sort with a lab at the NIH where you can split your time between the two labs? If so you can try to forge an individual partnership as part of the graduate partnership program (GPP) at the NIH. You can apply for the next MD/PhD GPP application cycle as a track 3 student which will let you do your PhD first then fund you for an MSTP slot at a participating MSTP (past schools that participate for track 3 include Hopkins, UChicago, and Harvard though only partially).

I regret not applying for the GPP when I had the chance. I was considering applying to the OxCam program this past application season, but my interest in the GPP waned after considering other options. My mentor would likely be open to a collaboration, but I think the logistics of splitting my time between two labs at this point would be difficult. I am definitely going to look into this though.

Alternatively, if there's an MSTP at your current institution, consider talking with the PD about joining the MSTP when you formally start your PhD. Some programs are amenable to letting their students do the PhD first, particularly if that student already has a good track record at the institution and doing that PhD first can offer significant time benefits. If you do want to try to pursue this, do not start your PhD before consulting with the MSTP as I have seen programs that specifically prohibit graduate students who have started a PhD at the same institution from joining the MSTP.

I think this is my most advantageous option right now. Thanks for that. I am not confident that I will have much support from the MSTP side, as I have said another student in my lab in a similar position was not able to get accepted to the MSTP. Though I may have better luck. I am going to start this conversation with the PD soon.

 

[ablavar]

first of all, congrats on having such wonderful achievements. you are extremely lucky to have such excellent support. It sounds like you are doing very well as a scientist, and will most likely continue to excel. Have you considered doing the PhD only? May I know why you wish to add on the MD?

Thanks for the kind words. I have considered PhD as well as MD only. In short, I want the MD because I want to work with patients. I considered MD/PhD because I think the best way for me to impact patient care would be to integrate the clinical perspectives only an MD would have into research aims as a bench scientist.

Speaking more logistically, in the short-term, I do not see myself as a full-time research scientist. I love doing bench work and collaborating with others on their research, but as a career, given funding rates and the chances of landing a good faculty position both in the single digits, it is tough for me to not pursue the MD. I want to be able to do clinical work. In the long-term, though, I might see myself transitioning out of clinical work and working full-time as a scientist.

This could all change in 20, 10, even 5 years, but I think what has me so motivated to do my PhD now is the momentum that I have for my project. I am 22 right now, and if I could spend just a handful of years in this lab to get my degree and then focus on my MD, I think it might be worth it. I might be overstating all of this, but I think the momentum you have in a given lab environment is something that is very important. Still, I want to consider all of my options before I commit.

 

[Anandamide]

Is there any way you can work in the lab for 1-2 years as a paid tech to get the publications? It would be a setback time-wise, but it would set you up better financially. You'd be able to complete the project/work with your mentor, and you could earn some money in the meantime as a tech. Plus, you would still be able to do an MSTP in the future, rather that going into debt for the MD.

Maybe you could defer admission during the gap year, so you still hold the slot? (I have no idea if that is possible, but it's worth investigating.) Or maybe you could use the time to apply internally? Even if your school is biased against internal applicants, you seem like a strong contender. If you stay at your current institution, it's worth it to apply internally.

I just can't imagine turning down the free MSTP funding to put yourself in that much debt for an MD later....


*correction - It might not even be a setback time-wise to do a gap year. If you pursue the degrees separately, you lose the time you would have otherwise saved by overlapping the two programs.

 

[wildcat23]

depending on how long you wait to apply to medical school/take the mcat again, you may be taking the 2015 mcat. Not sure on how much the test changes, but you may need to refresh on some of the new topics added like sociology/psych.

 

[miz]

Did you apply to your home MSTP this past cycle?

 

[ablavar]

Is there any way you can work in the lab for 1-2 years as a paid tech to get the publications? It would be a setback time-wise, but it would set you up better financially. You'd be able to complete the project/work with your mentor, and you could earn some money in the meantime as a tech. Plus, you would still be able to do an MSTP in the future, rather that going into debt for the MD.

Maybe you could defer admission during the gap year, so you still hold the slot? (I have no idea if that is possible, but it's worth investigating.) Or maybe you could use the time to apply internally? Even if your school is biased against internal applicants, you seem like a strong contender. If you stay at your current institution, it's worth it to apply internally.

I just can't imagine turning down the free MSTP funding to put yourself in that much debt for an MD later....


*correction - It might not even be a setback time-wise to do a gap year. If you pursue the degrees separately, you lose the time you would have otherwise saved by overlapping the two programs.

I am trying to avoid doing my PhD at another institution, given that I would like the experience I earn in this lab to count towards my degree, and also given that I am coming in with a coursework-based MS from this institution and in this graduate program. I think my best option at this point would be to apply internally as a gap year student, and also to apply to the PhD program at the same time as a backup.

I don't think I would lose any time by not overlapping the programs. I'm hoping someone can correct me on this, but if I stay here, I am hoping to count the work that I complete during these years as a non-student research tech towards those I would complete as a PhD student, outside of coursework (2/3 done) and other milestones (qualifiers, minimum number of publications, conferences).

depending on how long you wait to apply to medical school/take the mcat again, you may be taking the 2015 mcat. Not sure on how much the test changes, but you may need to refresh on some of the new topics added like sociology/psych.

Definitely going to re-take the MCAT before 2015.

Did you apply to your home MSTP this past cycle?

I did, but did not receive an interview. I had about an even mix of top tier, mid tier, and low tier schools with interviews this past application cycle. I think a combination of a late application (secondaries submitted in September), unimpressive GPA (3.55/3.60 s/cGPAs), and no publications in my intended field of study (but 1 in press, 2 submitted, and several conference abstracts in another field) resulted in that.

 

[K31]

I'm hoping someone can correct me on this, but if I stay here, I am hoping to count the work that I complete during these years as a non-student research tech towards those I would complete as a PhD student, outside of coursework (2/3 done) and other milestones (qualifiers, minimum number of publications, conferences).

I wouldn't assume anything here. I have a friend who tried to save time in his PhD by going to the same lab where he worked as an undergrad, but ended up taking the same amount of time as most of the rest of us in the same year. Definitely talk to both your PI and the graduate program before making a decision.

 

[BrightandClear]

I am trying to avoid doing my PhD at another institution, given that I would like the experience I earn in this lab to count towards my degree, and also given that I am coming in with a coursework-based MS from this institution and in this graduate program. I think my best option at this point would be to apply internally as a gap year student, and also to apply to the PhD program at the same time as a backup.

I don't think I would lose any time by not overlapping the programs. I'm hoping someone can correct me on this, but if I stay here, I am hoping to count the work that I complete during these years as a non-student research tech towards those I would complete as a PhD student, outside of coursework (2/3 done) and other milestones (qualifiers, minimum number of publications, conferences).

Does your school/department/program have an option for converting your terminal masters into a PhD? At my current institution, I know it is program specific. A past lab-mate was able to do similar to what you are describing, where as a friend in a different department had to start all over... I would check on the specifics of this very carefully.

 

[ablavar]

I wouldn't assume anything here. I have a friend who tried to save time in his PhD by going to the same lab where he worked as an undergrad, but ended up taking the same amount of time as most of the rest of us in the same year. Definitely talk to both your PI and the graduate program before making a decision.

Thanks. I'm meeting with a graduate adviser at the end of this week to more formally discuss my timeline. Meeting with committees, qualifiers, other milestones, life in general all take time that I should be considering and will know fully by the time I make my decision.

Does your school/department/program have an option for converting your terminal masters into a PhD? At my current institution, I know it is program specific. A past lab-mate was able to do similar to what you are describing, where as a friend in a different department had to start all over... I would check on the specifics of this very carefully.

I am certain about this.

 

[BrightandClear]

I am certain about this.

Then I think there is a lot of sense to what you are thinking about (take your momentum and run with it, ha ha). 🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

In short: I am debating leaving a laboratory environment I truly enjoy working in with strong support and re-applying MD later, versus taking an MSTP acceptance now. I would appreciate any advice.

Take the MSTP acceptance now. Your current PI is not the only good PI on the entire planet. I would ask him who he recommends you working with at your MSTP institution. He may already have current or former collaborators there that you don't know about. Even if he doesn't, you can always collaborate with him in the future, after you finish school if not during school. Don't throw away a good thing for the sake of the "perfect."

(FWIW, I'm a PhD-to-MD who would go back and do MSTP in a heartbeat if given the chance to do it over.)

 

[StIGMA]

He has stated he would love to have me on board as a graduate student and has funding for me if I choose to do so. He is also very aware and supportive of me re-applying MD after I do my PhD with him, including the time constraints that come with that.

If your undergrad PI was like mine and many other PIs, he is putting pressure on you overtly and subliminally to stay on for your PhD. I agree with Q, and it is the wrong decision if you are going to get an MD. How much is your PI influencing your decision- are you worried even a tiny bit about disappointing him?

Unless you have strong evidence that applying internally will work for you (approach your potential grad program director, and have him/her discuss your situation with the MD/PhD program director, who would then indicate a strong likelihood), I would advise you to take the MSTP acceptance. You apparently have gained some expertise in your current lab. Bring your expertise to your MSTP program in a new lab- and your PhD will expand your skills that much further.

Note also that all these publications you are focused on will be ~4-8 years old by the time you apply for residency, and ~8-13+ years old by the time you apply for your first faculty position. You will need to prove yourself again before your first faculty job, and the publications you are working on now likely won't hold much significance.

 

[bbj85]

Having worked under range of PIs doing research, I would strongly suggest that you stay under your current PI that you have a good connection with. There is definitely a sweet spot in terms of PIs and if your current one sees you as often as you desire and is supportive, I think it would be wise to stay. Also, it is really impressive that you have 2 first author papers coming up at your age and, if I was in your position, I wouldn’t think twice about getting the papers under your current PI. Also, if you were able to get into an MSTP this year, I have no doubt that you will be able to switch easily to MD again in the near future and, most likely, get financial aid due to your qualifications. If you are having this debate in your head, I think that your gut is questioning the MSTP route—and I would say follow your gut. That’s just my 2 cents.

 

[miz]

The money thing is a huge, huge problem. I strongly disagree with bbj85: I don't think you should gamble on getting scholarships for the MD in the future. You cannot ensure that you'll get good scholarships at strong research medical schools.

Unless you can do the MSTP at your home institution I don't see the advantage in taking 200-250k debt to maybe or maybe not save a few years of PhD study. There is a qualitative argument that the papers/experience you may get with your current PI may be great/better than elsewhere. But I just don't... buy that it would be better for your career, or even that it will necessarily save you a lot of time. For example, what if your mentor wants you to do a new project for your PhD?
You know your department, do you think your potential PhD committee would sign off on a two year PhD? The baseline length of time that PhD committees consider is usually 5 years, not the 3-4 years that it is for MSTP's. You'd have to defend at the same time as apply, and you'd have to take the MCAT somewhere in there. You could do that, but would you want to? It could take time and focus away from your PhD.

On the other hand, you don't sound very enthused by your MSTP acceptance. Do you dislike that school (because of location or other reasons)?

Also, have they told you where you are on the two MSTP waitlists and your chances of getting off? They should be able to do that, it's way past April 30.

 

[SBR249]

I feel like there probably won't be much movement at the top by now since it would make sense for waitlist movements to generally trickle down from the top schools. So you'd expect that if you were going to get off the waitlist at a top 10 school. it would have happened by now.

 

[Neuronix]

The money thing is a huge, huge problem. I strongly disagree with bbj85: I don't think you should gamble on getting scholarships for the MD in the future. You cannot ensure that you'll get good scholarships at strong research medical schools.

Unless you can do the MSTP at your home institution I don't see the advantage in taking 200-250k debt to maybe or maybe not save a few years of PhD study. There is a qualitative argument that the papers/experience you may get with your current PI may be great/better than elsewhere. But I just don't... buy that it would be better for your career, or even that it will necessarily save you a lot of time.

I agree with this. 👍 I don't think you even need to go to a "strong research medical school" in a PhD->MD transition, but you aren't guaranteed acceptance or scholarships at any program.

 

[Doc2doc2]

I agree with the other PhD to MDs. Take the MSTP acceptance and run with it and ask you current PI for advice on a good mentor at your new school. Your PI might be the best and be really nice to you, but he is also looking out for himself. If you stay in the lab, he does not have to train someone else and his projects can be completed faster. He too has ulterior motives. Things change and you never know how long your PhD will take. Imagine spending 8 years then having to apply to medical school again! Add to that the increased debt, considering med school tuition will probably just keep rising over the years. You also have to explain to PhDs at your unterviews why you are not satisfied with your training. If I had to do it over again, I would go the MSTP route. PhD to MD is stressful and frankly very inefficient.

 

[miz]

is OP still reading this thread, it's been a while since we heard from him 🙄

 

[275471]

OP, I was in a similar situation except that I was a little more unsure about wanting to do a PhD. I ended up applying MD only and then later decided I did indeed want to pursue the PhD. One thing to consider is your research would likely be stronger with 2 years of med school behind you. The first two years of med school are as good a basic science education as you can get. However, the financial burden of going this route is a difficult pill to swallow