Advice for doing aways?

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jamochacreampie

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Any advice for how to best prepare for an away rotation? and how to/who to impress while you're on one?

I've also heard many times that you should get to know the program director while you're there...how exactly do you go about doing that/what are you supposed to say?
 
Any advice for how to best prepare for an away rotation? and how to/who to impress while you're on one?

I've also heard many times that you should get to know the program director while you're there...how exactly do you go about doing that/what are you supposed to say?

asking the attendings and residents (especially the residents) out for drinks 😀
 
Be nice to everyone, and impress everyone. This even includes nurses and coordinators. As far as residents are concerned, PGY-2s are actually more important than upper level residents because they are the ones who will be your chiefs by the time you start at your derm residencies. When I interviewed at a particular program following an away rotation, only the PGY-2s participated in the actual interviews.
 
Be nice to everyone, and impress everyone. This even includes nurses and coordinators. As far as residents are concerned, PGY-2s are actually more important than upper level residents because they are the ones who will be your chiefs by the time you start at your derm residencies. When I interviewed at a particular program following an away rotation, only the PGY-2s participated in the actual interviews.

This especially includes nurses and coordinators

The PGY-2s may be more important in terms of who you will be actually working with but you should also pay attention to upper year residents who are looking to stay behind as faculty. Upper year residents may also have more input in the eyes of the program director.

Basically, dermpom's 1st sentence captures it all 👍
 
Thanks for the input! Any specifics on how to impress? Are they expecting that there will be a lot of learning along the way or should I go in pretty much knowing everything about derm?
 
Thanks for the input! Any specifics on how to impress? Are they expecting that there will be a lot of learning along the way or should I go in pretty much knowing everything about derm?

It's best you know everything about derm going into your first rotation. You will be very popular because of this, and the attendings and senior residents will look up to you. Tough cases will be brought to you so that you might solve them and render appropriate treatment.

The recipe for success is simple: if you're not a douchebag, just be yourself. If you are a douchebag, kill yourself and hope to be reincarnated as a non-douchebag and then reapply to derm (if you still like skin).

Don't overthink this thing.
 
Just like what everyone has said, be nice! Don't be arrogant.

Also be enthusiastic about everything and offer to help as much as possible, but at the same time don't go overboard or be too pushy. I know it's hard but try to shoot for the fine balance.

Definitely make sure you introduce yourself to everyone. There are definitely times when I was like who the heck is that, and that certainly does not add brownie points to your character. Connection is really the key to success in derm, and that applies even beyond residency.

Again, many derms are very particular and sensitive about anything. Tread very carefully and be cognizant of everything you do and your interactions with everyone because one tiny little mistake or annoying thing you do may sink your application.
 
Just like dermography says, be enthusiastic about everything. Look for any opportunity to be helpful to those around you. Pay attention to all the extra crap that your resident is having to do: getting the paper work out to get the patient's consent, going to get the cryo gun, grabbing a camera/photographer, looking for their pen. If possible, get these things ready for them in advance. Find out what size gloves they wear and get them ready for your resident. Be quiet. Ask questions when there is downtime and shine WHEN you are given the opportunity. Don't be a gunner or an *******. If you do all of these things, people will miss you when you are gone because you were a team player, eager to help and eager to learn. Even if you don't match at an institution where you did an away, derm is a tiny world and you will see these people around if you are lucky enough to match into the specialty.
 
Just like dermography says, be enthusiastic about everything. Look for any opportunity to be helpful to those around you. Pay attention to all the extra crap that your resident is having to do: getting the paper work out to get the patient's consent, going to get the cryo gun, grabbing a camera/photographer, looking for their pen. If possible, get these things ready for them in advance. Find out what size gloves they wear and get them ready for your resident. Be quiet. Ask questions when there is downtime and shine WHEN you are given the opportunity. Don't be a gunner or an *******. If you do all of these things, people will miss you when you are gone because you were a team player, eager to help and eager to learn. Even if you don't match at an institution where you did an away, derm is a tiny world and you will see these people around if you are lucky enough to match into the specialty.

Away rotations are a fine balance and the ones that do the best are ones that are genuinely nice and helpful. Being smart comes second on an away rotation. A lot of an away rotation is how you do things. A lot of life is the how and not the what. So what do I mean?

1) Take a chill pill. If you take everything too seriously, it shows. That rarely ends up well.

2) Be aware. There's no point in restating dermpom's point because it's dead on...read that previous post carefully, especially the part about paying attention to what might bog the resident down. In the past, I've had med students do something so simple as have a pen ready for me and by the end of the clinic, I had the warm and fuzzies because they had been so thoughtful to keep the clinic moving along smoothly. It meant so much. If you help with the little things like getting the consent ready, getting the cryo, helping facilitate the biopsies with either positioning the patient or getting the pillow or letting the nurses know, etc. goes SUCH A LONG WAY. However, if you are intense or come across like a suck up then it turns people off so you'll have to find that balance.

3) When you ask questions, make it a good one. Again, this is the how you do it. Remember how people say there is no such thing as a dumb question...well that's wrong. Sometimes you can ask dumb questions and usually its when you seem like you are asking a question to just ask a question. Make sure you care when you ask.

4) Look things up if you see an interesting patient. This is especially true if your attending and resident have a prolonged discussion about the patient's clinical scenario. We just don't have time to look things up on the fly and so if you are able to look it up during a period of downtime, that goes a long way.

5) Be assertive. If you are a wallflower, no one will remember you. This goes back to being a part of the team and being actively engaged. Ask about any opportunities to work on publications. Many times attendings or residents will have hanging projects that need help to finish up. You won't know if you don't ask.

6) Smile. It matters. Everyone plays of body language first before they talk to you. If you come across as a sweet person, it's a huge deal. Even if you are having a bad or stressful day, remember to smile.
 
Away rotations are a fine balance and the ones that do the best are ones that are genuinely nice and helpful. Being smart comes second on an away rotation. A lot of an away rotation is how you do things. A lot of life is the how and not the what. So what do I mean?

6) Smile. It matters. Everyone plays of body language first before they talk to you. If you come across as a sweet person, it's a huge deal. Even if you are having a bad or stressful day, remember to smile.

You know...this reminds me of just how few residents that I run into at my hospital actually smile throughout the day. It also reminds me of a pre-med that was shadowing our team last month, and how he always had a stern look on his face lol.

Thank you for the reminder dermathalon - i will be sure to smile more often and keep a positive attitude hehe.
 
Just curious. I've asked MS4's who've matched in derm about this. Haha, maybe some of these comments echo these concerns 🙂 Their general advice is:

Rule #1: Don't do aways in dermatology

Why? Dermatologists are super-picky about everything and too hard to impress. There's a 90% chance you're going to do something wrong at some point during a 2- or 4-week rotation. It's essentially giving the attendings 4 weeks to scrutinize and find your flaws versus the rest of the applicant pool who didn't do aways at the institution who are all essentially blank slates in their eyes. There's an opportunity to impress, but there's also a much larger opportunity to unimpress given the expectations.
 
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Just curious. I've asked MS4's who've matched in derm about this. Haha, maybe some of these comments echo these concerns 🙂 Their general advice is:

Rule #1: Don't do aways in dermatology

Why? Dermatologists are super-picky about everything and too hard to impress. There's a 90% chance you're going to do something wrong at some point during a 2- or 4-week rotation. It's essentially giving the attendings 4 weeks to scrutinize and find your flaws versus the rest of the applicant pool who didn't do aways at the institution who are all essentially blank slates in their eyes. There's an opportunity to impress, but there's also a much larger opportunity to unimpress given the expectations.

I am definitely looking for flaws.
 
Just curious. I've asked MS4's who've matched in derm about this. Haha, maybe some of these comments echo these concerns 🙂 Their general advice is:

Rule #1: Don't do aways in dermatology

Why? Dermatologists are super-picky about everything and too hard to impress. There's a 90% chance you're going to do something wrong at some point during a 2- or 4-week rotation. It's essentially giving the attendings 4 weeks to scrutinize and find your flaws versus the rest of the applicant pool who didn't do aways at the institution who are all essentially blank slates in their eyes. There's an opportunity to impress, but there's also a much larger opportunity to unimpress given the expectations.

This is not entirely true. If you are a superstar on paper, I do feel aways usually hurt more than they help.

If you have flaws in your application profile (and most people do), the trend is to do as many aways as possible but you need to be smart about it. There's a great post in the ENT forum about how to approach aways. Obviously it's geared towards an ENT applicant but there are many parallels that students interested in derm can take away.

I do agree residents in dermatology tend to be picky (perhaps too picky). I often encourage the younger residents to remember when they were bright eyed bushy tailed med students. There are some things that they should be able to overlook. However, we are very frequently unpleasantly surprised as to what kind of dirt residents can pick up on a potential applicant during a 2 to 4 week audition rotation.
 
There are some things that they should be able to overlook. However, we are very frequently unpleasantly surprised as to what kind of dirt residents can pick up on a potential applicant during a 2 to 4 week audition rotation.

😱 What kind of dirt? Are these usually personal/personality issues or academic/work-related flaws? I always try to maintain a hard-working, professional attitude...
 
This is not entirely true. If you are a superstar on paper, I do feel aways usually hurt more than they help.

If you have flaws in your application profile (and most people do), the trend is to do as many aways as possible but you need to be smart about it. There's a great post in the ENT forum about how to approach aways. Obviously it's geared towards an ENT applicant but there are many parallels that students interested in derm can take away.

I do agree residents in dermatology tend to be picky (perhaps too picky). I often encourage the younger residents to remember when they were bright eyed bushy tailed med students. There are some things that they should be able to overlook. However, we are very frequently unpleasantly surprised as to what kind of dirt residents can pick up on a potential applicant during a 2 to 4 week audition rotation.


Tend to agree, but I would add that it is also program dependent. This is only a personal opinion, but I think aways at the typically very academic top programs may tend to be less lucrative for the rotator. They seem to want the more flawless applicants. It seems easier to make a bad impression.

I feel a rotator can improve their chances at a more clinically oriented program if they are able to prove they are a pretty normal, careful, efficient, solid worker.

Of course we all want to see solid exam scores. No program wants to put out residents who may be more likely to fail boards.
 
Well count me in the minority dissenting opinion here.

Superstars on paper are a dime a dozen. They pique no interest and do not scream "this is someone I want to work with for the next 3 years". We always looked at those who rotated with us harder than those who did not. They were always given an interview -- and, given the very limited number of interviews offered, greatly increased your odds by way of eliminating choices.

Rotate away. Don't be a douche. Hopefully you will be considered a good social fit with the existing players.
 
Well count me in the minority dissenting opinion here.

Superstars on paper are a dime a dozen. They pique no interest and do not scream "this is someone I want to work with for the next 3 years". We always looked at those who rotated with us harder than those who did not. They were always given an interview -- and, given the very limited number of interviews offered, greatly increased your odds by way of eliminating choices.

Rotate away. Don't be a douche. Hopefully you will be considered a good social fit with the existing players.

or if you are a douche and can't stop being douchey because you'll just stop existing because douchiness comprises 90+% of your personality, try to be a good douche who really douches with passion and maybe helps people regain that fresh feeling.
 
Well count me in the minority dissenting opinion here.

Superstars on paper are a dime a dozen. They pique no interest and do not scream "this is someone I want to work with for the next 3 years". We always looked at those who rotated with us harder than those who did not. They were always given an interview -- and, given the very limited number of interviews offered, greatly increased your odds by way of eliminating choices.

Rotate away. Don't be a douche. Hopefully you will be considered a good social fit with the existing players.

Word. Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
Dress to impress during your rotation month. Tennis shoes are a big no-no.
 
Dress to impress during your rotation month. Tennis shoes are a big no-no.
More students these days are so unprofessional and it is really annoying. They get in the way during biopsy, take my $1k dermlite without permission, interrupt during presentations, etc. How can they be so socially stupid
 
More students these days are so unprofessional and it is really annoying. They get in the way during biopsy, take my $1k dermlite without permission, interrupt during presentations, etc. How can they be so socially stupid

Yeah there are always those one or two rotators that do something (or things) that make you just wonder what is going on in their head.

Being meek when appropriate. Being confident when appropriate. Find the balance, and do it.
 
More students these days are so unprofessional and it is really annoying. They get in the way during biopsy, take my $1k dermlite without permission, interrupt during presentations, etc. How can they be so socially stupid

It's tough being a med student....maybe setting expectations up front would be helpful?

I've noticed students doing these sorts of things too...
 
It's tough being a med student....maybe setting expectations up front would be helpful?

I've noticed students doing these sorts of things too...

I'll be the first to admit it's tough (and derm residents as a whole tend to be more on the finicky side). That being said, I do agree it's helpful to set expectations up front. I ran the student rotation and I laid out everything ahead of time. It's not the sweetest introduction to the field but given the personalities in our department, it's for their own good.

There's not a lot of ways students can help on our rotation but we ask them to be as proactive as possible in terms of helping residents when they're biopsying (instead of being wallflowers), dress appropriately, never interrupt during a patient exam, don't play with their phone, show up on time, etc...
 
I'll be the first to admit it's tough (and derm residents as a whole tend to be more on the finicky side). That being said, I do agree it's helpful to set expectations up front. I ran the student rotation and I laid out everything ahead of time. It's not the sweetest introduction to the field but given the personalities in our department, it's for their own good.

There's not a lot of ways students can help on our rotation but we ask them to be as proactive as possible in terms of helping residents when they're biopsying (instead of being wallflowers), dress appropriately, never interrupt during a patient exam, don't play with their phone, show up on time, etc...

Just curious at to what role med students generally play at most places on away rotations? At my home program, we're basically expected to act like residents. We see our own patients, conduct an interview and exam, present to an attending and then may or may not help with any procedures that have to be done (Mostly watching, but I did my fair share of injections, LiqN2, punch and shave biopsies, light and pulsed-dye laser therapy, stitches on surgery day, etc. ). We're responsible for writing the patient note, ordering any labs/path, quick summary note for the front-desk if follow-up is needed, and the attending/resident will co-sign. The attending of course does most of the final assessment and plan, and communicates it to the patient (you act as scribe once you've done your oral presentation).
 
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