Advice for Incoming MD/PhD students

[hawkeey]

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Do you guys have any general advice for MD/PhD students who are just starting out?

I think I would appreciated it if someone told me to get a jump start on human gross anatomy during the summer since I have never had it before. That would have made first semester a lot less stressful.

Or how about what kind of lab to rotate in as a first rotation?

 

[meowkat444]

I love this, just hope people post in it!

 

[strangeglove]

My advice to incoming MD-PhD students is to relax and enjoy what is probably the last summer in your life when you will have no responsibilities to your work. Forget about working in the lab, even if your future program recommends a rotation this summer. Don't bother studying anatomy or any other first year medical school class. Instead, go somewhere you've never been before. Spend some time with your family. Be irresponsible. I understand that you are very driven and are very excited about getting a head start, but in reality this will not help you get better grades or graduate any more quickly. It will only hasten your burning out in your first year. People in your starting class who are more intense about their careers than you (yes, they do exist, believe it or not) are going to be having fun this summer. Why don't you?

 

[chirurgino]

My advice to incoming MD-PhD students is to relax and enjoy what is probably the last summer in your life when you will have no responsibilities to your work. Forget about working in the lab, even if your future program recommends a rotation this summer. Don't bother studying anatomy or any other first year medical school class. Instead, go somewhere you've never been before. Spend some time with your family. Be irresponsible. I understand that you are very driven and are very excited about getting a head start, but in reality this will not help you get better grades or graduate any more quickly. It will only hasten your burning out in your first year. People in your starting class who are more intense about their careers than you (yes, they do exist, believe it or not) are going to be having fun this summer. Why don't you?

Couldn't agree more. Please DO SOMETHING FUN during the last free summer of your life. But once you get to school, pick a lab as early as you can, and don't look back (have seen many MD-PhDs waste a year by agonizing over picking a lab and doing way too many rotations). Pick a rigorous lab with serious science. Once you start in the lab, work hard. Work really, really hard -- like 12-16 hrs/day hard. This is the key to graduating on time.

 

[Ultra7]

I actually think it is sort of unnecessary and somewhat counterproductive to work 12-16 hours a day in lab. For some people that works, but for me I found that after about hour 10 or so I stopped concentrating well and started making stupid mistakes that cost more time.

I also don't think you need to focus on picking a "rigorous lab with serious science". I mean, that's fine, but I think it is most important to have a mentor whose style is compatible with yours, who you respect and like. Also a lab environment and other lab members you like is important too.

Being a physician-scientist is a journey that should be enjoyed. What's the rush?

 

[Sinfekl]

I actually think it is sort of unnecessary and somewhat counterproductive to work 12-16 hours a day in lab. For some people that works, but for me I found that after about hour 10 or so I stopped concentrating well and started making stupid mistakes that cost more time.

Don't spend 12 hours pipetting, that's darn near impossible.

But you have never, and I mean never, read enough literature. I swear, ESPN.com will add another year to my PhD. If you spend a good number of those 12-16 hours on PubMed and planning experiements/generating ideas, its unbelievable how much more productive you are. And you have to set aside dedicated time for that stuff (at least I do), its much more effective that way.

 

[jeniffer lopez]

Don't spend 12 hours pipetting, that's darn near impossible.

But you have never, and I mean never, read enough literature. I swear, ESPN.com will add another year to my PhD. If you spend a good number of those 12-16 hours on PubMed and planning experiements/generating ideas, its unbelievable how much more productive you are. And you have to set aside dedicated time for that stuff (at least I do), its much more effective that way.

SDN will add a year to mine 🙁 No, seriously, your advice is very good. Also, I think it is crucial to know WHEN to read/plan. Just make sure it happens when you are at your sharpest (not after lunch for me!)

 

[totalcommand]

Don't spend 12 hours pipetting, that's darn near impossible.

But you have never, and I mean never, read enough literature. I swear, ESPN.com will add another year to my PhD. If you spend a good number of those 12-16 hours on PubMed and planning experiements/generating ideas, its unbelievable how much more productive you are. And you have to set aside dedicated time for that stuff (at least I do), its much more effective that way.

Yeah I've been dreading this. I have some sort of conditioned response to reading papers - it's like an instant soporific for me. And I don't drink coffee...yet.

 

[dphoenix]

As an MD/PhD defending soon (successfully I hope 😱) there's a few things that I realized would have made things easier before lab:

1) Investigate a LOT of labs, join one you're intensely interested in the science, and don't get hung up on joining any particular big-wig (actually I think there might be an inverse correlation to years spent vs tenure of the prof).

2) Design your project carefully! At least for me, i underestimated how much time my project would take - I did complete it, but I could have done either more projects or finished earlier if I had taken on something more reasonable. The two things you should be think carefully about are design and throughput of experiments.

3) Take medical school seriously. Do well in medical school - there are going to be a lot of trying times during the PhD route that will shake your motivation to the core. Having good board scores and grades is comforting towards a backup plan.

The final thing I think is important in light of the comment above about working 12-16 hours is that you have to work smart, not necessarily hard (altho hard usually gets in there). Before I thought 4 years was a ton of time - now I realize that its a really small window of time to get a PhD. Looking back, the trick to it is not to cram 6-7 years into 4, but rather you can't be wasting time doing many unproductive experiments/projects. I'm not completely sure how to avoid this, but I can tell you that after these last 4 years I certainly appreciate better the planning stages of experiments rather than the experiments themselves. This is really hard to do after MS2, since you're trained during that year to do exactly the opposite (plan is laid out, blitzkrieg through those books).

Hope this helps - good luck, it's a long road, but its fulfilling

 

[hawkeey]

I'm going to endorse the advice about doing something fun for the summer. You definitely do not want to burn out. Definitely go out and explore your new neighborhood and city. It'll make your life so much better once you realize all the really cool stuff just around the corner. My MSTP class and a few of the other med students doing summer research would go weekly to a Tuesday or Thursday happy hour. It was a great way to get know everyone.

As for my anatomy comment, it's going to depend on the person, but it was very difficult to pick up the details while still grasping at the fundemental patterns. I think this would go for any course that you know you have little background in... such as biochemistry. The first semester usually builds a good foundation for the later stuff, so its just important to get a generally idea of what on if only to motivate you later. This is probably more applicable to non-biology majors.

Regarding summer research rotations, there are two poles of opinion here:
1) Take it seriously and work in a lab you might consider joining.
2) Relax a little bit, come in at noon, and enjoy the summer.

This just depends on if you will have some sort of vacation ahead of time and how burnts out you feel.

If you don't have any time between whatever you were doing before and the rotation, then just relax. Take a trip to Europe or something. Definitely do not pick a lab that you might actually want to work in.

If you have already taken a full year off and already have gone to Europe, then, by all means, give this rotation all you have got. You'll have made a great impression to begin with and at minimum will have a lab to back to. One of the situations you want to avoid is not having a lab to go to after all your rotations.

 

[strangeglove]

Regarding anatomy before school starts: Remember that most of your colleagues have never taken this class or anything like it before medical school, so you're all going to be equally clueless. Studying for medical school classes of any kind before medical school starts will only serve to make you anxious.

 

[hawkeey]

Regarding anatomy before school starts: Remember that most of your colleagues have never taken this class or anything like it before medical school, so you're all going to be equally clueless. Studying for medical school classes of any kind before medical school starts will only serve to make you anxious.

It depends on the medical school and its class norms. A considerable part of my class (about 15 - 20%) did have pretty in depth anatomy courses prior to matriculation. Consider this versus the MSTP class, which had no experience with it. Because of the way the anatomy course was run this year, a lot of the MSTPs in my class got in trouble really quickly.

 

[strangeglove]

It depends on the medical school and its class norms. A considerable part of my class (about 15 - 20%) did have pretty in depth anatomy courses prior to matriculation. Consider this versus the MSTP class, which had no experience with it. Because of the way the anatomy course was run this year, a lot of the MSTPs in my class got in trouble really quickly.

Sounds like anatomy isn't taught very well at your school. Sorry to hear that. I'm not surprised that the MSTP students were the ones who didn't take anatomy in college (why waste time on a class thats not really that exciting and that you'll have to repeat in medical school anyway?). Anyway, I hope you all enjoy your summer.

 

[hawkeey]

Well that's exactly why I didn't take anatomy in college (trying to avoid the redundancy), but I know quite a few pre-meds friends who have basically taken all of their medical school basic science courses before going to medical school For MD/PhDs I think this is quite uncommon since there is usually a strong curiosity about science resulting in the urge to explore.

As for my anatomy course, the curriculum is transitioning a bit, and the timing of exams in relation to other exams was not very helpful, which depressed the grades systematically. More so though, the problem was that I should have spent more time on anatomy than on biochemistry, which I preferred and was better at. This was a common mistake. Anatomy is one of those courses that is impossible to cram for. For me getting a general overview (cranial nerves, ANS, major arteries) earlier would have helped me use my time more efficiently.

Its important for new MD/PhD students to realize is how the rest of the MD class may be a little bit different than them. It's very easy for incoming MD/PhD students to think that they have some kind of superior academic pedigree than the regular MD class, whereas many who chose to pursue the MD had taken a very directed preparation. Rather than superior, the prior experience has just been different.

The main point is to realize where one may need a more time to study. This is typically the things that 'you don't like to do'. For me, straight memorization takes me a little bit more time than memorizing signal transduction pathways or physical chemistry equations. Some people are the complete opposite. The sooner one realizes what's going to take more time, the more time there is to catch up.

On one hand I'm generalizing, and on the other hand I'm referring to my specific experience. This advice will variably apply based on the medical school and the individual student, but if there were any forewarning I wish I would have been given, this is it.


Anyways, I'm not going to post on this further.

 

[hawkeey]

Let's move on to another topic... say getting involved in romantic relationships. Love tends to come about while we are undergoing transitions, and entering a MD/PhD program is one heck of a transition.

Are there any opinions on dating other MD/PhDs versus dating regular MD students? How does one construct a relationship that will positively influence academics rather than distract from it?

 

[strangeglove]

Let's move on to another topic... say getting involved in romantic relationships. Love tends to come about while we are undergoing transitions, and entering a MD/PhD program is one heck of a transition.

Are there any opinions on dating other MD/PhDs versus dating regular MD students? How does one construct a relationship that will positively influence academics rather than distract from it?

If you already have someone in mind, then just go for it. In general, however, I personally am against dating anyone in the medical profession. I mean, why would you want to be around medicine all of the time. Also, my experience has been that medical students and doctors are in general pretty boring people who have little time to devote to relationships. I say this because I am one of them. This is just my personal opinion, and I've certainly seen some very happy couples go through medical school together. If you must date someone in school, then I would suggest the graduate students, preferably in the liberal arts. They make better conversation and their parties are much better. Also, they're likely to stick around for a good 7-8 years for a PhD.

 

[Dr.Watson]

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[SeventhSon]

Getting a jump start on first year classes is probably not going to be that productive.

Rotating in a lab the summer before could be worth it. I'm glad I did. I went on a 3 week vacation after graduation and after that, i was ready to get back to business.

 

[hawkeey]

Of the MSTP class just finishing up their MS2 in my program, there has already been one wedding between two members of the class. Another one is on their way.

Of the MSTP class just finishing up their MS1 in my program, one student came with a child and there are two more children on the way.

I thought this was quite a storyto tell when an incoming student expressed concern that the MSTP would delay starting a family.

 

[dphoenix]

I judge a girl's attractiveness as an inversely related to the number of degrees she has/is pursuing

Seriously, why is this a topic? If you like a person does it really matter what he/she does? Everyone has stresses and job incompatabilities - it's about how you decide to deal with it.

 

[sciencewonk]

All good info, but why is the OP the same person as someone who is responding? hawkeey?

 

[AtmaWeapon]

yeah I would personally be against marrying a woman in med school :T

Not to say I have anything against intelligent women, because if I were a woman myself, I'd rather not date/marry a male med student😛
Keep in mind there are plenty of ways to 'meet people' other than in classes/labs.

 

[OwnageMobile]

All good info, but why is the OP the same person as someone who is responding? hawkeey?

I was a bit thrown off by this, too.

 

[ThatOne]

To clear up the confusion about why hawkeey would be responding to his/her own post, please reread the original post:

Do you guys have any general advice for MD/PhD students who are just starting out?


I think I would appreciated it if someone told me to get a jump start on human gross anatomy during the summer since I have never had it before. That would have made first semester a lot less stressful.

Or how about what kind of lab to rotate in as a first rotation?

I think hawkeey is already an MSTP student who started this thread not for his/her own benefit, but from simple altruism.

 

[greg12345]

1. Have fun, relax, and enjoy the journey. You are GETTING PAID for a select opportunity to learn incredibly cool things about science and medicine, and empowering you to pursue a career that is intellectually stimulating, altruistic, not to mention relatively lucrative in the grand scheme of things.

2. That being said, the clock is always ticking whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, and you would be wise to remember that. I think doing a rotation before you start is a great idea as long as no major life events are going on (e.g. getting married, etc.). Seriously...a lab rotation is not that much work, you will probably work 9-5 M-F...that leaves plenty of time for rest, play, relaxation before you start med school, plus it enhances the likelihood that you will choose a PhD lab sooner. You want to take a vacation? That's what 4th year med school is for!!! And trust me, you will need it after MS3 esp. w/the spectre of PGY1 looming.

3. MS1/MS2: Take this seriously and work your butt off, but only so you can be a good physician and a good scientist. Grades should never be your motivating factor. Work as hard as you can so you can be a good physician, and the grades will follow. You want your options as wide open as possible when it comes time to choose a specialty - don't slack off on MS1/MS2 and Step 1 and end up closing off options for yourself b/c you don't have the grades.

4. Grad School: Read one paper a day, M-F, at least for the first 2 years and reference them with a program such as Endnote. That is a relatively small and doable time committment, but it adds up (>500 papers in the first 2 years) and will make writing your papers/thesis SO MUCH easier, will help you design your experiments better, will help you look like a star when you get asked difficult questions at meetings, etc. And always move your project forward EVERY day - make sure you do at least one worthwhile experiment everyday (no matter how small it is - e.g. getting a ligation to work on something you are subcloning)...you always want to be moving forward, even if the steps are incrementally small.

5. MS3: This is the make or break year of the med school years IMO. Grades this year are critical. You must shine, but it is so easy to do so if you are a normal human being with a decent social IQ. Some people just don't get it, don't be one of those.

6. Personal opinion: Focus on the task at hand. When you are in med school, focus on being the best med student you can be, and when you are in grad school, focus on being the best grad student you can be. Don't get caught up in trying to go into the lab while in med school, or going into clinic while in grad school, or keeping up with the lit while back in med school, etc. People will disagree with this, but I think to be well trained requires a serious time committment - your time is better spent in grad school (your protected research time) learning how to be a scientist, etc. rather than going to clinic one half day a week.

7. Moral of the story: PhD is NEVER a golden ticket, you must work your butt off at all stages of the game. But keep your priorities straight, enjoy the journey, and always remember how lucky you are.

 

[greg12345]

8. Invent a time machine so you can relive 4th year Med School over and over and over and over....ahhh, bliss! Best year of my life and I will never see another year like this until I retire.

 

[Sashko]

4. Grad School: Read one paper a day, M-F, at least for the first 2 years and reference them with a program such as Endnote.

I've been trying to find a way of keeping track the papers I have read but but it never occurred to me to use Endnote for this🙁 Thanks for the advice...

 

[Ersatzious]

I've been trying to find a way of keeping track the papers I have read but but it never occurred to me to use Endnote for this🙁 Thanks for the advice...

If you are a Mac user, Papers is fantastic for organizing papers and it can export to EndNote when it comes time to write.

 

[greg12345]

Endnote is seriously amazing and every grad student should convince their boss to get a lab copy of it. You can download all the citation info from the internet into it and I would always create custom fields or custom notes to help me when it was time to search/find a particular paper I wanted to re-read or reference. Integration into MS Word is great and it just feels so good to see everything formatted into the appropriate reference style with the click of a mouse! Made my life so much easier!

 

[solitude]

Endnote is seriously amazing and every grad student should convince their boss to get a lab copy of it. You can download all the citation info from the internet into it and I would always create custom fields or custom notes to help me when it was time to search/find a particular paper I wanted to re-read or reference. Integration into MS Word is great and it just feels so good to see everything formatted into the appropriate reference style with the click of a mouse! Made my life so much easier!

I think most R1 universities will have a university license of it, so the PI shouldn't need to get a lab copy of it. Just contact the Office of Information Technology (or equivalent) and they should be able to license it to you for free, or a small fee. At least, that's the way it is here at Duke, so I figure it should be the same at comparable universities.

 

[totalcommand]

I've been exploring this citation program called Zotero. It seems pretty cool - it's an extension for Firefox, and all you have to do when you find a journal article is click a little button in the address bar and it automagically creates a citation with all the authors, journal name, etc. You can then associate pdfs with the citation so you can quickly access the papers.

Keep in mind it's in beta, and the number of citation formats it has pales in comparison to EndNote. But hey, it's free, and you can export to EndNote.

 

[hawkeey]

I found this interesting article about learning syndromes afflicting beginning medical students.

It discusses certain learning problems that manifest themselves in medical students. I think MD/PhD students are particularly susceptible to some of these such as the "Six Chambered Heart Syndrome" which involves over-thinking questions.

Burns, Robert E. "Learning syndromes afflicting beginning medical students: indentification and treatment - reflections after forty years of teaching." Medical Teacher, Vol. 28, No. 3, 2006, pp. 230 -233.

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content?content=10.1080/01421590600632920

 

[gbwillner]

Are there any opinions on dating other MD/PhDs versus dating regular MD students? How does one construct a relationship that will positively influence academics rather than distract from it?

I would recommend agiainst dating another MSTP, unless you plan on marrying them. It could be a LOOONG 7-10 years if things end badly. Similarly, you should never date anyone in your lab. This has the potential for disaster of biblical proportions. I'm all for dating med students though. After the basic science year(s) you probably won't see much of any one particular individual, so if things end badly you can just ignore each other until he/she graduates.

I would add that we are very busy people and our social lives are very limited compared to "normal" people. We date who we meet, and we meet other med students very regularly/easily. We have lots in common and it's only natural that relationships should ensue. We also end up working long hours together in the clinics, and may develop close relationships unintentionally. There is no reason to shy away from this.

 

[greg12345]

"How does one construct a relationship that will positively influence academics rather than distract from it?"

Only a medical student would ask a question like this!!

 

[tacojohn]

"How does one construct a relationship that will positively influence academics rather than distract from it?"

Only a medical student would ask a question like this!!

I got married so I could improve my grades. Doesn't everybody do that?