Advice Needed: Do I need formal training?

[CyberMaxx]

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General Problem
Hey everyone! For quite some time I have been wrestling with the issue of whether I need formal graduate training (M.S. or Ph.D.) to pursue the type of academic career I want. Although I have research experience, and realize that I will get much more during medical school and residency, I am interested in pursuing a field of research which I have little background in (computational biology/biomedical engineering). Do you think that I will need the protected didactic and research time provided by a graduate program to acquire the skills necessary to become an independent physician scientist?

Background
After graduating with degrees in both physical and biological sciences in May of 2013 I am taking a year to pursue fulltime research and apply to medical schools. Currently I have been accepted to several programs and am on waitlists/waiting to hear back from a few more. My research is in biophysics and the techniques which I use most in my laboratory are electrophysiology, fluorescence microscopy, and imaging. By the time medical schools starts I will have been in my current lab for just about four years and have a first author publication and presentations at national conferences. Hopefully my project will be to the point where I can get another first author publication by the time that I leave, but as we all know that is a great uncertainty 🙂!

Research Interests
My research interests lie in the fields of computational biology/biomedical engineering. Although I’m not exactly sure what topic I want to focus on, I am very interested in mathematical modeling, biomedical imaging and image analysis, and biomedical technology/devices. My current research has given me experience with imaging and image analysis and has exposed me to mathematical modeling. We also have a machine shop and I really enjoy dreaming up new experiments and going into the shop and fabricating the necessary experimental equipment.

However, my math skills and certainly my programming skills are on a very basic level. I have just taken the calculus sequence plus some linear algebra necessary for quantum mechanics; I have not taken any computer science courses. It has really been my experience teaching myself a programming language this year in my free time which has shown me how much more training and experience I really need to do the type of research that I want. For these reasons have been debating whether I need to get a graduate degree so that I can have formal training in some of these areas. At the same time, I know that it might be difficult to get into a dual degree program since I didn’t apply to one from the get-go. Further, I’m not 100% sure that I even need to go the dual degree route and don’t want to spend extra time in training if it’s not necessary.

So with all of this in mind, do you guys think that I need to pursue a formal dual degree program or should I just work on doing research in labs whose focus aligns with my own interests?

 

[QofQuimica]

If I had to guess, I'd guess that yes, you would need formal training for an academic career in just about any scientific field. But you've spent four years in a lab working for someone in this field. Presumably you speak with your PI every now and then. What does s/he say you should do?

I don't mean to be flippant; it's just that you have ready access to someone who presumably knows the ins and outs of your field and can tell you what you need to do to get there. Why wouldn't you take advantage of your mentor's insider knowledge and ask them?

 

[CyberMaxx]

If I had to guess, I'd guess that yes, you would need formal training for an academic career in just about any scientific field. But you've spent four years in a lab working for someone in this field. Presumably you speak with your PI every now and then. What does s/he say you should do?

I don't mean to be flippant; it's just that you have ready access to someone who presumably knows the ins and outs of your field and can tell you what you need to do to get there. Why wouldn't you take advantage of your mentor's insider knowledge and ask them?

Thanks for your reply QofQuimica, I understand your point. However, my PI is an old school electrophysiologist and is pretty discouraging of my idea to get more involved in computational/bioengineering research. Basically he thinks that any field of research that is disconnected from doing basic biological experiments (i.e doing experiments on single cells or isolated tissue) is a waste of time. I've tried to have this conversation with him a few times recently but he's not very helpful. It always end up with him telling me that what I need to do is stay in his lab (I'm currently accepted to the medical school I do research at) and get an MD/ Ph.D in physiology. He's a pretty old guy (over 70) and set in his ways! 🙄

But perhaps you're right and this is too specific of a question to get good feedback on an anonymous internet forum. It was worth a shot! 😛

 

[Flavivirus]

You don't NEED formal training, but you should think about how you will acquire the skills to succeed in computational biology or bioengineering without formal graduate training. It is definitely possible, but 1) how will you carve out the time from your very busy medical school responsibilities and 2) who will be training you? Or will you be learning math and programming on your own? If you take courses, will you be paying for them out of your own pocket in addition to paying for medical school? Then consider that many MD/PhD positions are funded (i.e. you would emerge debt-free) and should cover the cost of your learning computational biology.

 

[CyberMaxx]

You don't NEED formal training, but you should think about how you will acquire the skills to succeed in computational biology or bioengineering without formal graduate training. It is definitely possible, but 1) how will you carve out the time from your very busy medical school responsibilities and 2) who will be training you? Or will you be learning math and programming on your own? If you take courses, will you be paying for them out of your own pocket in addition to paying for medical school? Then consider that many MD/PhD positions are funded (i.e. you would emerge debt-free) and should cover the cost of your learning computational biology.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply Favivirus, you make some great points. So lets say that I do decide to apply for an MD/PhD program internally at the medical school where I end up. How competitive is this pathway and what do they base their decision off of? I ask especially because most of the schools I've been accepted to/am on the waitlist for are pass/fail the first two years. Some are even unranked pass/fail. In this case will internal admission to the MD/PhD program be based solely on my med school application?

 

[Microglia]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply Favivirus, you make some great points. So lets say that I do decide to apply for an MD/PhD program internally at the medical school where I end up. How competitive is this pathway and what do they base their decision off of? I ask especially because most of the schools I've been accepted to/am on the waitlist for are pass/fail the first two years. Some are even unranked pass/fail. In this case will internal admission to the MD/PhD program be based solely on my med school application?

This is highly variable depending on the school. Some schools are very open to it while others don't allow it at all. I would talk to the MD/PhD director at your school of interest and see if anyone in years above you has done an internal transfer, and what it entails.

 

[CyberMaxx]

Thanks for the replies so far, I have one more question. What are my options if I decide to pursue a Ph.D. but matriculate at a school without a bioengineering or computational biology graduate program? In this case will medical schools allow students to apply for Ph.D. programs at other institutions?

I ask because none of the schools that I've been accepted to have these programs, although all of the schools I'm waitlisted at do. 😛

 

[_drinkcoffee_]

Thanks for the replies so far, I have one more question. What are my options if I decide to pursue a Ph.D. but matriculate at a school without a bioengineering or computational biology graduate program? In this case will medical schools allow students to apply for Ph.D. programs at other institutions?

I ask because none of the schools that I've been accepted to have these programs, although all of the schools I'm waitlisted at do. 😛

You can almost always take off time to do a second degree somewhere else, it's just a leave of absence. I think it's unusual for MD students to do a PhD because it would mean a large gap between the pre-clinical and clinical years without the cohesiveness that MSTPs provide. Also, your loans are going to be accumulating interest the entire time.

Many medical students will do MBAs or MPHs at other, more prestigious schools than the school they are enrolled in for their MD.

 

[Flavivirus]

Thanks for the replies so far, I have one more question. What are my options if I decide to pursue a Ph.D. but matriculate at a school without a bioengineering or computational biology graduate program? In this case will medical schools allow students to apply for Ph.D. programs at other institutions? 😛

You may not need your school to have a "bioengineering" or "computational biology" program to get the training you need. For example, there may be faculty members in genetics who do computational biology with next-generation sequencing data, and/or you may be able to get a PhD in computer science from the university.

 

[CyberMaxx]

Hey everyone, I decided to resurrect my old thread instead of starting a new one for context and such.

So I just finished up my first year of medical school and am spending the summer working in a computational bioengineering lab modeling vasculature and simulating surgical procedures. At this point I am thinking about getting a masters degree because I think that this would give me sufficient time to take the courses I need (programming and math) to pursue this type of research independently in the future.

My question is whether it would be better to try to pursue a masters degree in bioengineering during medical school or during residency (if this is even possible). My thought is that if I pursue it now the publications that I get during my degree program will help my residency application. On the other hand many residencies require research years (right now I'm thinking general or vascular surgery) and perhaps I could get my degree during this required time off and save overall time. I am just curious as to whether anyone has any experience with this and is willing to share some advice. 🙂