advice needed on research options

[tooindecisive]

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Hey guys,

So.. I have a situation here where I need to choose between 2 labs. I've been working in these 2 labs and I feel that it's too time consuming for school work and I can't get as much done as I hope to because working in 2 labs really take too much time:

lab 1: small nice lab, taking over the project from a graduating senior; I have my own project because I've already had previous experience before; potential authorship; however, because it's a small lab, there are only a few post-docs and the PI's are accessible when they arent on clinic duty. (the PI is an MD -- also very pleasant). However, the research itself has been going very slowly, and since it's my own project, I'm the only one working on it and obtaining data - hence even slower. Also, this lab is a little limited on funds, so I end up having to make everything on my own, like LB and LB plates, which kill a bit of time that I could be doing research. I'm currently taking independent study in this lab, and I could potentially obtain an awesome rec. and the PI's really want me to stay here to continue working for summer and etc and are signing me up for summer fellowship.

lab 2: big lab, first hired to help out with tech work, but since I have previous experience, didn't end up doing tech stuff but instead got paired with a associate researcher and been working on a couple of projects. I have my own projects which are supervised and continuously worked on by not just me but my mentor as well, hence resulting in rapid progression in the experiment and in obtaining the data and I even ended up getting my name on a poster after the previous summer. Also, this lab has lotsssss of grant money, a lot of resources (and free LB plates that the tech makes for us) PI is extremely ambitious guy, and aside from his clinic duties (PI is an MD PhD -- could be a bit mean, as in "I have no time for you" type of outward attitude) he's always busy, meeting with people for more grants and individually meeting up with post-docs for data and etc. I could potentially see at least 1 if not 2 publication coming from this lab before I graduate, but I feel like it'll be very difficult for me to impress the PI enough to get a superb rec, since I don't see him that often in the first place and he seems to have very high expectations.

Or should I just find somehwere else to work? obtaining research position at this institute is faily easy for its undergrad student body, esp with previous experience.

In any case, this is pretty much a debate between good recommendation or lots of publications...

any input/advice would be appreciated. and please don't make arguments with "go with what you like better" -- both research topics are interesting and I want to go with what will benefit me for the remainder of my undergraduate years. 🙂

 

[135892]

I really don't see much benefit of leaving the lab you're in now to join the smaller lab. Sure, if you currently aren't in a lab at all, it would be a tough decision as to which of the two are better. But since you're already established in the larger lab, you should just stick with it, as I don't think it will be worth it to leave and have to start all over again at a new lab. However, just the fact that you're even considering leaving your current lab may indicate that you're not entirely satisfied with the current situation. I may be reading too much into this, and only you would truly know.

 

[tooindecisive]

I really don't see much benefit of leaving the lab you're in now to join the smaller lab. Sure, if you currently aren't in a lab at all, it would be a tough decision as to which of the two are better. But since you're already established in the larger lab, you should just stick with it, as I don't think it will be worth it to leave and have to start all over again at a new lab. However, just the fact that you're even considering leaving your current lab may indicate that you're not entirely satisfied with the current situation. I may be reading too much into this, and only you would truly know.

I'm actually working in BOTH... so i have to pick which one to leave.. too time consuming and can't get too much done if I continue this way..

 

[135892]

I'm actually working in BOTH... so i have to pick which one to leave.. too time consuming and can't get too much done if I continue this way..

Oh, sorry, I guess I didn't read your post closely enough. In this case "go with what you like better" 😀. Personally though, I would go with the larger lab... seems like there are more opportunities.

 

[AtheGre]

I think if you get publications in the larger lab, the PI will be impressed enough to write you a solid LOR. I work in a lab that has a very aggressive PI (an MD) that loves to publish a lot and is always very busy. Working for someone with such high expectations has paid off like you can not even imagine. Sounds like you're already leaning towards a commitment to the second lab. Go for it, and don't look back.


AtG

 

[shindotp]

I'd say go with the smaller lab so you can get a better relationship with the PI.

 

[tooindecisive]

one says big lab, other says smaller lab..

what's more valuable? recommendation or publications?

 

[vickpick]

i would say recommendations... the first one would be better... thats because I don't like looking for the "head" or the PI

 

[AtheGre]

Like I said, I think if you have something to show for your work - in the form of publications - your PI would be more than happy to write you a solid LOR. I am not sure about this, but is it possible that you could get two LORs from your second lab - one from someone you worked more closely with (i.e., an associate researcher) and one from your PI? It's something to think about. Also, how long will you have been working in a given lab by the time you graduate? If you give up the other, smaller lab, you will feasibly have more time to 'show face' and get to know this ever-elusive PI better. You might also want to consider sitting down with this PI and asking him if he will be able to write you a strong LOR. My PI is a very busy person; he's a neurosurgeon, has a basic science lab with lots of funding, sits on NIH grant committees, and much more. Even with all this, he has gone above and beyond when it came to helping me get into med school. If you let your boss know ahead of time that you would like a strong LOR, I'm sure he will empathize. He too was once a young lad trying to get into med school.


AtG

 

[tooindecisive]

Like I said, I think if you have something to show for your work - in the form of publications - your PI would be more than happy to write you a solid LOR. I am not sure about this, but is it possible that you could get two LORs from your second lab - one from someone you worked more closely with (i.e., an associate researcher) and one from your PI? It's something to think about. Also, how long will you have been working in a given lab by the time you graduate? If you give up the other, smaller lab, you will feasibly have more time to 'show face' and get to know this ever-elusive PI better. You might also want to consider sitting down with this PI and asking him if he will be able to write you a strong LOR. My PI is a very busy person; he's a neurosurgeon, has a basic science lab with lots of funding, sits on NIH grant committees, and much more. Even with all this, he has gone above and beyond when it came to helping me get into med school. If you let your boss know ahead of time that you would like a strong LOR, I'm sure he will empathize. He too was once a young lad trying to get into med school.


AtG

Wow! really? you must've really impressed him though -- I found that ambitious PI's generally have very high expectations from their undergrad researchers. Anyway, but did he get to know you personally?? Also, I have couple more years left in college... I'm not sure if meeting with the PI once every 2-3 weeks will be enough for him to actually get to know me to write a good rec.. He's really good about giving proper credit for using a person's data, which is how I got my name on the poster..

 

[AtheGre]

I rarely get to speak with my PI. I'll be lucky to sit down and talk with him once a month. The only time he gets to see my data is when I have to present during lab meeting. I think if you have a couple more years left in college, then this seems like more than enough time to establish a good rapport with your PI. I worked under him for 3 years (going on 4, I've graduated) before I applied to medical school.

If he is willing to give you credit for your work, then he knows you're working hard. Just keep busting your arse and you'll get recognized with a publication(s) and a solid LOR.


AtG

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

I'd say go with the smaller lab so you can get a better relationship with the PI.

i (conditionally) disagree here.*

what are you expecting from this relationship? most likely growth in your responsibilities and a LOR. there's actually more potential for growth in the larger lab (more researchers, more projects, more opportunities to help, and more money-- you're not wasting your time doing worthless stuff like making plates) and more potential for results (project progress, posters, pubs, other presentations). there's no need to show off in front of the PI to realize growth; if you perform well in front of/with your mentor, the PI will learn about you through him/her. and when it comes time for the LOR, your mentor will probably write it, and the PI will just sign it--which is even better than the PI writing it him/herself since s/he's so busy all the time. this is how i've seen it done in my and close friends' labs, and it works out well.

both sound like great opportunities. i would say choose the one you enjoy more.

*unless you are seeking something other than job growth and a great LOR from the PI (for example, you hope to shadow the MD PI or network with his MD colleagues), there is really no need to develop a close relationship with the PI for the purpose of applying to med school. as i explained above, you can get a fantastic letter from the researcher you work with, and the PI will just sign it as his/her own.

 

[orrghead16]

+1
you will have more opportunities to demonstrate your usefulness and hopefully (s)he will then give you more responsibility

Like most jobs it's not always how hard you work, it's who sees you working hard 🙂

+2

OP, there are a lot of labs and PIs out there that love to mentor undergrads, and the small one you refer to sounds like one.

I am in now what would probably be called a medium lab. ~8 people, but growing very quickly. However, I first came into the lab when the PI was just first starting in Academia: two months after he had just picked up his first grad student with one lonely tech. The tech was fired about two weeks into my stint. So there were three people, the PI, me, and the young grad student.

The first year or so in the lab was tough. Funding was slim-to-none. I had to pour my own media, make my own gels, etc. We couldn't order the most expensive reagents or new technologies if we had a bright idea that might go out on a whim. Publications came excruciatingly slow. No money to go to conferences, especially not enough to take the new young kid along.

But this didn't come without benefits. I got to talk with the PI everyday. Not just about research, but about everything else. Sometimes shoot the breeze for an hour. I was allowed a great deal of leeway with my research and was immediately given independent projects because of the lack-of-labor. The PI would come and work in the lab, because we didn't have the man power. Even though I was barely 16, he asked me for my input on things. Obviously, I didn't offer jack that was reasonable. But at least it was a start. It started a kind of relationship that was much more real that what I think you can get by entering an extremely large lab. We have had screaming arguments over both science and other. He has laid the wood on me multiple times for various screw-ups.

But as I continued with the lab, I got to ride the wave as we went from no-name on up. I was there when he got his first R01, and just watched him get his second based on the research I (We) started when I first walked into the tiny lab. Got to travel all over the place, pubs skyrocketed, and I didn't drop down the totem pole because I had been there from the start. Basically lucked out.

I still talk to him everyday and shoot the breeze in his office. Most of the new members of the lab are kind of intimidated to do the same; I think mainly because it has transformed into a stereotypical 'big' lab.

I guess my point is that my experience has been much different than the standard one or two year undergrad research stints or summer interns, etc. A large part of that I attribute to being in a small lab and sticking with it. Sappy? Sure. Lucky? Definitely, my experience is probably a rare exception. Even if it didn't come with academic progress, I wouldn't trade the experience in his small lab for any other. I get to go drink suds with him at the bar. Go fish or hunt with him. And talk in an actual conversation about science without getting preached at because he has developed a certain amount of respect for me because we have been exposed to each other directly for so long.

To turn the 20 paragraphs I just wrote into two sentences: It is an LOR & friend that would have been rarely possible in an extremely large lab. And one that I will refer to and use not just for Med apps, but much farther down the line.

 

[orrghead16]

both sound like great opportunities. i would say choose the one you enjoy more.

Without a doubt, the best piece of advice on here.

 

[orrghead16]

one says big lab, other says smaller lab..

what's more valuable? recommendation or publications?

IMO, LORs. Betting on publications is too risky of a process for an undergrad. PIs can tell you all they want that they will put you on papers and you will have X amount, but a lot of that is hot air. Publications follow two things: time or luck. Luck is by far the most important of the two. But if you get into a lab you personally enjoy and the PI/students enjoy you, your chances go up-somewhat.

Ok, last post in a row, promise.

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

I think maybe you misunderstood my post, it's not so much about "showing off" as it is being the first one there and the last one to leave...that kind of thing

You mention that PIs can sign great letters written by others but I really think you'd (OP) be missing out on networking opportunities. It's not really the PI, it's who they know.../2 cents

i call it "showing off", you call it "that kind of thing", and still others would call it "being a tool" (not meant to be malicious). objectively, it would be called something along the lines of "proving your worth" or "demonstrating competence" on a daily basis.

my point is merely that the PI does not need to be a direct observer in the lab to know what goes on. if you are working there, then the PI has talked about you with members of his lab and came to the conclusion that you can be of value to them. this evaluation process is ongoing. so if you're the first one in and the last one out, your mentor and other lab members will share this with the PI.

you are right about the possibility of networking, but what is the value of that for someone just applying to med school? i mentioned shadowing opportunities, but what else? it seems that this would be a substantial factor for a postdoc who is hoping to forge a career in research.

 

[Squiddie]

Honestly, I'd go with the smaller lab, but that's just what I'm used to being in. (My lab has 2 post-docs, 1 grad student who actually has her dissertation defense tomorrow, and 4 undergrads...very small lab) Being able to reach your PI when you need him/her is invaluable...especially if you're doing something largely bioinformatics-based like I am.

As for making plates and agar, once you get in the swing of things, it goes very fast. Just don't ever let yourself run out--when you get to the bottom 4 or 5 plates in a sleeve, make sure you stop yourself, make some agar, go back to work, and pour the plates before you leave. Every undergrad doing research that I know of has to make their own plates anyway.