Advice / Questions regarding Ireland

[MNIkid87]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Hey there,
I am a German currently graduating from an undergrad in Canada. I will be working for a year as an RA/lab-coordinator/lab-slave ( 😛 ) for a year to earn a bit of money and apply this fall to a bunch of schools in Canada (although I have low hope to get in as a foreigner - I dont think my permanent residence comes in on time) as well as Ireland and have a couple of questions (I have indeed tried the search function and read through the thread, but haven't quite found the answers I am seeking 100%).

1) Would it be beneficial to do a 5-year instead of a 4-year program (the difference for me is that 5 years is about 10k euros cheaper for me ) as it hypothetically gives you more time to learn all the USMLE material, or doesn't it really make a difference?

2) I would love to eventually work in the States or Canada (I'm currently thinking either peds or neurology, but chances are you change your mind during med school anyways, eh?) - as a foreigner who would in that case then have graduated from a foreign med school is that a reeaalllyy long shot / unrealistic or is there hope?

3) If it's not unrealistic, which schools typically have a strong track record of placing? I have read RCSI quite often in the forum, and the occasional UCD (although the reports of UCD graduates doing awefully on the USMLE is kinda scary), but what about the other unis (UCC, Limerick, Trinity...)?

4) If I end up not matching in North America *knock on wood* how likely is it to get a spot practicing in Ireland as a non-Irishman - I'd hate to take out 55 to 65 thousand Euros and then have to return to Germany where I would not earn enough to pay that off

Thanks so much in advance for your input, I really appreciate it.
Oh, and congrats to everybody who got accepted and matched this year, yay you guys (and girls) 🙂

 

[Arb]

1. Why spend an extra year if you don't have to? I'm not sure if the 5 year program is offered anymore but you should check. 4 or 5 years program doesn't really affect the USMLE. You'll just write Step 1 after your 2nd year instead of your 3rd.

2. IMGs match in US and Canada every year. Irish schools have a history of success. Get your Canadian permanent residency/citizenship and you'll be eligible in Canada. The US is open even if you're not a citizen/perm resident. Both are doable.

3. RCSI has about 5x more North American students than the other Irish schools so you'll hear more about them. Students from all schools match pretty well. I haven't heard of any UCD grads doing poorly on the USMLE. I think 90+ on Step 1 is the norm. It's really not that bad of an exam. If you put in the effort, there's no reason you shouldn't get 90+. Now for some people that's 2 months of studying while for others, it is 4 months.

4. You are an EU citizen so you are on equal footing with the Irish citizens.

 

[MNIkid87]

thank you very much for your help 🙂

 

[alexc]

I don't think you can apply to a 5 yr program if you have graduated. I'm not sure about that but I think so since the beginning of the 4 year programs. I don't know if Trinity has started a 4 yr, I think they have, before this, you had to apply to a 5 yr.


I don't think it really matters in the end where in Ireland you go, only thing I read is that RCSI is more flexible and understanding of students who want to take the USMLE and even offers help in studying for it but, I believe most students do fine as long as they are willing to put in the work. I also read the most important thing in doing well on this exam is to learn the material well the first time and not have to self learn later.


Hope this helps.

 

[coralis]

IF you did not immigrate to Canada, AND your permanent address was/is still in Germany. You should be able to still be considered a German resident and thus be charged at an EU rate for the Irish medical schools?! No?!

 

[MNIkid87]

I think so, since for the past 3 years (the whole time that I was in Canada) I was still a German resident for tax purposes (i.e., in terms of collecting child tax deductions etc.)

 

[coralis]

I think so, since for the past 3 years (the whole time that I was in Canada) I was still a German resident for tax purposes (i.e., in terms of collecting child tax deductions etc.)

So you will be paying next to nothing to attend, it would be sooooo much cheaper than going to US or Canada....AND since you have so much ''North American'' experience and UG education, if you rock your Step I and II, my opinion is that you won`t have an issue matching in the US! Ich bin 99% sicher! Vielleicht nicht im Radio oder Chirurgie aber sicher ins etwas! Tchus!

 

[Aidan Kehoe]

Hey Coralis —

A few suggestions for you:

— Make sure you have an Anmeldebestätigung showing your residency in .de for at least three of the last five years. Send copies of it with your Irish applications.

— You may be forced into a graduate entry programme because of your existing degree if you're applying as an EU citizen, and to start a graduate entry course in .ie as such (that is, not as a North American) you need to sit the GAMSAT. This will probably involve a trip to Europe or Australia, I don't think they offer the test in North America. See http://www.google.com/search?q=gamsat .
(GAMSAT can be used in .uk too; consider applying there as well. Also consider applying to Germany, where as a citizen you won't have to pay any fees and will get maintenance grants, not the case in Ireland. You can work in .ie or .uk with a German qualification, and many Germans do.)

— (It may be that they will be prepared to ignore a North American undergrad degree if you’re applying as an EU citizen to the five year course; certainly I had trouble convincing them that my Irish degree was of the required level for the graduate entry programme, and you may have more trouble with a Canadian degree!)

— If you start the graduate entry programme, you will have to pay fees, even as an EU citizen and resident. It won't be anything comparable to what my Canadian and Estadounidense classmates are paying (c. €45k per annum), it is subsidised by the government, but it’s still €14k per annum, plus living expenses, and this is an expensive country to live in. There are loans available here, though, and the first few years in the Irish system (obligatory if you study as an EU citizen) are well-renumerated, you'll be able to pay them down.

The whole thing sounds doable but a lot of work, to be honest; this is about the right time to start planning it for 2010 entry. There’s a couple of PDFs on applying to medicine at http://www.cao.ie/index.php that are worth reading, and I think you'll have to call CAO and maybe a couple of the medical schools to sort out what can work for you and what can’t.

My own background; I started the graduate entry programme at RCSI back in September. I made my application from Berlin, where I had been living for three years at that point, and even that had its complications, despite the lack of uncertainty about residence—it was really nice to have the Anmeldebestätigung as incontrovertible proof that I had been living in the EU, I’m not sure what I would have done for that if I had been living in Britain. I would have preferred to study in .de, but while my fees would have been covered, there were no maintenance grants (I would have needed to work there for two more years first) nor loans (jeder kriegt doch BAföG!) available to me, so it worked out simplest to come here.

Best of luck, Grüße aus Irland,

Aidan

 

[MNIkid87]

First of all: Thanks everybody thus far for all the awesome advice!!! I really appreciate it.

With regards to studying in Germany: I don't qualify for maintenance grants due to my parents' jobs, so I would still need loans to cover living expenses for the 6 years of study in Germany. Furthermore, can you easily get an intern / house officer / whatever position in Ireland if you graduate from Germany? I'd think they service their own first there?

I'm definitely already starting to plan my application cycle. I will need to take out a total of about 60k euros throughout 4 years in Ireland (probably, plus minus 10k). I will also hopefully be able to save up around $10k this year while working (I am graduating tomorrow and will take up a hospital research coordinator job either in Rochester, MI or Vancouver, BC), so that I can minimize my loans in my first year (make stuff easier). If I understand that correctly I only need 3 or 4 out of the past 5 years as a resident in the EU, and since I was an EU resident for tax purposes for the past 22 years, I would still have 4/5 if I work abroad for a year 🙂

You said the first years in the Irish system are obligatory as EU resident - how come?

 

[Aidan Kehoe]

Whoops, MNIkid87, your nick isn't coralis ...

To be qualified to practise as a doctor at all (within Europe) after studying in an Irish medical school, you need at least an intern year in .ie or .uk: http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?1nID=93&2nID=94&3nID=108&pID=108&nID=213 . I think I have heard that it's also an obligation associated with accepting the place as an EU citizen, but I can't find documentary evidence of that; which is not to say it doesn't exist, I actually should check that out.

As a German with a German qualification, it would be easier to get an intern year position than as a North American with an Irish qualification. But certainly, studying in .ie will mean you will have had the chance to network here, and that will give you opportunities you wouldn't have in .de. I would make sure to mention on a regular basis in hospitals that you're German, though, there's a bit of a mindset that people with North American accents are probably not going to be around for the long- or even medium-term.

Grüße,

Aidan

 

[MNIkid87]

With regards to the whole intern year thing, I thought to have read in the forum (could be wrong though) that you will get credit in Ireland for the intern year even if you do it somewhere else (e.g. North America ) and can then still register in Ireland / somewhere else in Europe.

Btw., how do you like RCSI thus far?

 

[Aidan Kehoe]

Ah, you're right, http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/faqs/article.asp?FID=12&T=F and http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/faqs/article.asp?FID=67&T=F seem to indicate you can do your intern year elsewhere. They say ‘most' international medical schools are accepted.

I like RCSI, it's the most competent Irish institution I've ever had anything to do with, and the graduate entry programme is well-resourced, with early clinical exposure and dedicated facilities. The Canadian beside me right now says that RCSI would be perfectly reasonable for you 🙂 .

 

[MNIkid87]

Thanks so much for all the advice 🙂
I have one more question - what was your experience with the GAMSAT? Very hard? What score would one need to be competitive? I am kind of annoyed that the GAMSAT is the only means of evaluation used to decide who gets a spot - especially since I worked my butt off for the past three years to get a good / nicely filled CV 😉

 

[jnuts]

Just a bit more on the intern year part. The Irish Medical Council requires an Internship to have 6 months of medicine and 6 months of surgery within 18 months in order to qualify.

The issue here is that most residencies in North America are in either medicine OR surgery so they do not qualify. There are some exceptions like Obs/Gyn that would be cover both. That being said there is quite a bit of pressure on foreign grads recently to not stick around for the intern year due to the economy so these rules might become a bit more flexible. A significant motivator for foreigners to stay for the intern year is registration with the IMC.

Irish internships are a sure thing if you're an EU citizen (and even if you're not and get decent grades).