Advise on Nero v. Forensics concentration

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gzaky

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I am looking to get some advise on this matter. I am currently a first year doctoral student in a clinical psych. Program (Psy.D) and I am considering concentrating in Forensics or Neuropsychology later on down the road. My questions is, if I concentrate on Nero and finish my post doc in Nero, what will I have to do to re-specialize in forensics later on? Will I be required to go through the doc. Program again or just do a post doc in forensics?

Additionally, does anyone know of a program in the states that allows to dual concentrate on Nero and Forensics.

Thank you
 
gzaky said:
I am looking to get some advise on this matter. I am currently a first year doctoral student in a clinical psych. Program (Psy.D) and I am considering concentrating in Forensics or Neuropsychology later on down the road. My questions is, if I concentrate on Nero and finish my post doc in Nero, what will I have to do to re-specialize in forensics later on? Will I be required to go through the doc. Program again or just do a post doc in forensics?

Additionally, does anyone know of a program in the states that allows to dual concentrate on Nero and Forensics.

Thank you

Hi Gzaky,
I'm not sure about dual concentrations but I know that both NSU and CAU offer np and fp concentrations and they're both in South Florida.
If you're interested in both I would suggest getting your concentration in np. NP is the most formalized of all the clinical psych sub-specializations, more than forensic psych, health psych, etc.
NP also requires a 2 year post-doc fellowship in order to complete your residency and be eligible for licensing.
FP does not have such formal requirements and if you begin to work for the legal system doing psych assessment and forensic examinations (e.g., competency, insanity, custody evals)-which you will be able to do as a licensed psychologist that has gone through a minimal post-doc training workshop on forensic examinations-you will be able to consider yourself a forensic psychologist.
There are some programs that are formal fp ones but these are very few (check out APA's fp division) and are not requirements-neither is a forensic concentration-to actually be a forensic psychologist.
There are, however, many requirements to be a neuropsychologist so if I were you I would focus on meeting those and then getting into practice as a forensic neuropsychologist-BTW, these folks are, anecdotally, the most sought after, compensated, and respected of all forensic examiners.
Peace.
 
sasevan said:
Hi Gzaky,
I'm not sure about dual concentrations but I know that both NSU and CAU offer np and fp concentrations and they're both in South Florida.
If you're interested in both I would suggest getting your concentration in np. NP is the most formalized of all the clinical psych sub-specializations, more than forensic psych, health psych, etc.
NP also requires a 2 year post-doc fellowship in order to complete your residency and be eligible for licensing.
FP does not have such formal requirements and if you begin to work for the legal system doing psych assessment and forensic examinations (e.g., competency, insanity, custody evals)-which you will be able to do as a licensed psychologist that has gone through a minimal post-doc training workshop on forensic examinations-you will be able to consider yourself a forensic psychologist.
There are some programs that are formal fp ones but these are very few (check out APA's fp division) and are not requirements-neither is a forensic concentration-to actually be a forensic psychologist.
There are, however, many requirements to be a neuropsychologist so if I were you I would focus on meeting those and then getting into practice as a forensic neuropsychologist-BTW, these folks are, anecdotally, the most sought after, compensated, and respected of all forensic examiners.
Peace.

I always found it kind of odd that there isn't any professional board for forensic psychology or forensic neuropsychology. Many of the clinical neuropsychologists that I know conduct forensic examinations in addition to their work in rehabilitation hospitals, medical schools, etc. From what I have gathered, forensic work is VERY well compensated.

sasevan, would you care to elaborate on your statement regarding forensic neuropsychologists being "the most sought after, compensated, and respected of all forensic examiners?" I have read some papers describing fees for forensic services, but didn't realize that neuropsychologists were the most sought after and respected in the forensic arena. In fact, I have read that being a psychologist often disqualifies one from making decisions regarding organic causes of brain dysfunction. I realize that the Reitan case may have set this straight, but attorneys do often bring the qualifications of the evaluator into question.

Also, do you know of any forensic neuropsychologists who spend most of the their time conducting forensic evaluations? How much money do they make? Are they satisfied with this work?

Thank you!

PH
 
There is indeed a certification body for both, and if you were going to do either, you would certainly want it -- as it is fast becoming a requirement should you need to go to court.

www.abpp.org
 
sasevan said:
Hi Gzaky,
I'm not sure about dual concentrations but I know that both NSU and CAU offer np and fp concentrations and they're both in South Florida.
If you're interested in both I would suggest getting your concentration in np. NP is the most formalized of all the clinical psych sub-specializations, more than forensic psych, health psych, etc.
NP also requires a 2 year post-doc fellowship in order to complete your residency and be eligible for licensing.
FP does not have such formal requirements and if you begin to work for the legal system doing psych assessment and forensic examinations (e.g., competency, insanity, custody evals)-which you will be able to do as a licensed psychologist that has gone through a minimal post-doc training workshop on forensic examinations-you will be able to consider yourself a forensic psychologist.
There are some programs that are formal fp ones but these are very few (check out APA's fp division) and are not requirements-neither is a forensic concentration-to actually be a forensic psychologist.
There are, however, many requirements to be a neuropsychologist so if I were you I would focus on meeting those and then getting into practice as a forensic neuropsychologist-BTW, these folks are, anecdotally, the most sought after, compensated, and respected of all forensic examiners.
Peace.

Thank you for the explanation, it is something to think about. I actually attend CAU at this time and I am contemplating between Nero or forensics. I did come across individuals who have concurred with what you have mentioned in regards Nero psychologists are more reimbursed then most other psychology concentration but I am not sure of the prestige issue. I am assuming the longer post doc, most likely, places an individual in a better position then others who may have only one year of post doc.
 
Well, as far as Forensic neuropsych is concerned I have heard figures of around $300-400/hr and the assessments are generally longer than average. However, I hear it is very hard to establish a practice soley based on this, unless you work for the government. Most neuropsych's do it part-time. I think it all depends on what you want to do, but neuropsych is probably more stringent on their post-doc standards. Going back for a forensic post-doc my not be as bad. You want to look for a neuropsych post-doc with a forensic component.
 
PublicHealth said:
I always found it kind of odd that there isn't any professional board for forensic psychology or forensic neuropsychology.

As Janusdog pointed out, there are professional boards for cl psych, neuropsych, forensic psych, health psych, counseling psych, etc.-even for family, group, child and adolescent, and even more. check out: www.abpp.org for clinical psych and its sub-specialties and www.abpn.net for neuropsych.
However, while board certification exists in psychology this is as of yet not a requirement-unlike psychiatry,for example-to provide psych dx, testing, tx, expert witness testimony, etc. in general but neuropsych appears to be headed in that direction-"grandfathering" current practitioners while requiring certification for all new ones.

Many of the clinical neuropsychologists that I know conduct forensic examinations in addition to their work in rehabilitation hospitals, medical schools, etc. From what I have gathered, forensic work is VERY well compensated.

That's what I understand as well. I don't have statistical evidence, only anecdotal, but at least in South Florida, all the neuropsychs that I know-about 6-make much more money than cl psychologists (general practitioners).
One in particular, a forensic neuropsych, makes over 150k/yearly-she's in private practice and only does forensic neuropsych assessments.

sasevan, would you care to elaborate on your statement regarding forensic neuropsychologists being "the most sought after, compensated, and respected of all forensic examiners?" I have read some papers describing fees for forensic services, but didn't realize that neuropsychologists were the most sought after and respected in the forensic arena. In fact, I have read that being a psychologist often disqualifies one from making decisions regarding organic causes of brain dysfunction. I realize that the Reitan case may have set this straight, but attorneys do often bring the qualifications of the evaluator into question.

Again, this is anecdotal, but lawyers will of course question the credentials of any expert witness. In FL, psychiatrists, msw, mhc, mft as well as psychologists are eligible for certification as expert witnesses following post-degree training. The courts have a data bank of those certified professionals and prosecutors/defendors utilize only those experts in criminal cases. Of course, private attorneys can utilize other non-certified professionals, esp. in civil cases, but if they do that's when they really open themselves up for the opposing lawyer to discredit their expert witness.
I agree that many lawyers do seek to discredit cl psychs regarding organic causes but not neuropsychs. In fact, many attorneys have a preferential bias towards psychologists, in comparison to psychiatrists, citing that psychologists have 6 years of training/practicum in the "non-organic" basis of behavior while psychiatrists have relatively little training/practicum in that since the 8 yrs of med school/psych residency is focused on the organic dimension.
Of course, this impacts cl psych's credibility when the issue is an organic one but not neuropsychs because they especially come into the court as experts in both the behavioral and biological dimensions of affective/cognitive dysfunction. Also, attorneys appear to be impressed by the scope of neuropsych assessment which is often much more extensive than a psychiatric interview, mse, and some lab results. In effect, while cl psychs are considered experts in the psychological dimension and psychiatrists in the biological, neuropsychs are seen as being experts in both, especially when they provide the court not just with a dx but with the specific functional limitations found in the individual as well as with recommended tx strategies.

Also, do you know of any forensic neuropsychologists who spend most of the their time conducting forensic evaluations? How much money do they make? Are they satisfied with this work?

Thank you!

PH

Absolutely, see above.
Peace. 🙂
 
Hi,

there are several other courses are available in expert witness in england and other countries. you have go to their respective sites to know more about the course details and time required to finish the course.

this could the best means to you to know about the further course details.

thanks
 
Both can be lucrative fields.....i think you should look at what you want to do. Neuro post-docs aren't easy to get...but I think the training is great (from what i've been told). I would choose neuro...but that is just me. 😉

-t
 
I know of only a handfull of people who are double boarded in FP and NP and this does not happen very often. I'm not sure anyone can say that board certification is "becomming" the standard at this point since less than 3% of all psychologists are baorded through ABPP and less than 5% by any reputable board. FL is one state were the title of board certifiaction will become restricted and my guess is that organizations like ABFE will no longer be able to use the title.

Part of the reason that most people don't seek boards is both is that there are few who have that broad a practice. My boards are in NP and I do a fair amount of forensic work. My testimony is based on my area of expertise and thus no boarding in FP would be needed. However, clinical psychologists who provide testimony in custody evals, death penalty cases, compensation, criminal competency do need the boards in FP as that concentration of study offers training in those areas.

You can get an ABPP in FP without goping back for formal training in FP, you can't do the reverse. However, my advice is to get the training in your area of interest.
 
I know of only a handfull of people who are double boarded in FP and NP and this does not happen very often. I'm not sure anyone can say that board certification is "becomming" the standard at this point since less than 3% of all psychologists are baorded through ABPP and less than 5% by any reputable board. FL is one state were the title of board certifiaction will become restricted and my guess is that organizations like ABFE will no longer be able to use the title.

Part of the reason that most people don't seek boards is both is that there are few who have that broad a practice. My boards are in NP and I do a fair amount of forensic work. My testimony is based on my area of expertise and thus no boarding in FP would be needed. However, clinical psychologists who provide testimony in custody evals, death penalty cases, compensation, criminal competency do need the boards in FP as that concentration of study offers training in those areas.

You can get an ABPP in FP without goping back for formal training in FP, you can't do the reverse. However, my advice is to get the training in your area of interest.

The only double boarded person I know does criminal NP cases so both areas are relevant. I also do forensic NP (usually personal injury), but am not boarded yet. It usually comes up when I testify, but my professional position and other credentials tend to make it a non issue. My guess is that if I did not have my other work and credentials to fall back on it would be more of an issue.
 
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