PhD/PsyD Advising undergrads

[calimich]

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I've been meaning to create a thread about this for a little while and finally finding the time as the semester begins to wind down...

I'm wondering about your experience being mentored/advised as undergrads.

Some context: At my university, I'm the only licensed psychologist on the undergrad tt faculty and the psych dept is the 2nd largest on campus, both in terms of students and faculty. We offer a BS in psych, and students have the option of choosing a focus area. Like most (all?) other depts on campus, we have several part-time faculty (adjuncts) teaching courses, at least one who is licensed. Before I was hired last year, all "counseling/clinical" courses had been taught by part-time instructors who were either licensed at the MA level or had received their doctorates from professional schools. IMO, this led to students (and the dept) receiving bad advice about the nature of professional schools. None of my tt dept colleagues had heard of the match imbalance, APPIC, etc. I can't blame them, as it's not their area and I don't think for-profit doctorate degrees exist in other disciplines of psychology.

Flyers like these were/are routinely posted on our dept announcement board, sent via email to students, and I find myself having to educate my colleagues about the risks of for-profit professional schools.


So I'm wondering what was your advising like as an undergrad? Were you mentored by licensed psychologists? Did your college's advising center steer you away from for-profit professional schools? Those of you who work with undergrads, how do you educate students and peers about this issue? Other thoughts about how to "get the word out"?

 

[Kadhir]

I had a grand total of 1 (maybe 2) licensed instructors, who were also p/t. It was a prestigious psychology department but had no clinical program. Pursuing clinical psych wasn't particularly encouraged, but the implicit message was that if you're going the clinical route, do a PhD and do research. I wouldn't have wanted to see their faces if I had asked them to write recs for professional schools. For a couple years I convinced myself I wanted a purely research degree, partly because of their biases, but later came to my senses. However, I did go to a research-focused PhD program and am glad I did.

Despite the environment of my graduate program, misinformation about clinical psych abounded in the psychology department at large, which included a large number of adjuncts who had the most widespread access to undergrads. I found the best way to address this was to acknowledge the existence of many types of clinical psych programs and to highlight pros and cons, especially the cons with the professional schools.Stick to facts, be transparent about your training, and don't be afraid to present the dark side, as long as it's based in stats. Educate them on what people firmly in either camp might tell them (or sell them). A blanket "don't go there, it's bad" will probably be less effective and might make you some professional enemies. Reaching out to psychology orgs (e.g., Psi Chi) can be helpful in disseminating this information to the folks most likely to pursue graduate study. Write in the dept. newsletter, make yourself available as an adviser. Misinformation will continue to exist, but you can combat it and still be fair.

 

[WisNeuro]

We had undergrad advisors, but I didn't go to them. I had meetings with my undergrad faculty mentor (unlicensed) at first. I also sought out another faculty member who did neuropsych research to talk to about careers and also found a community neuropsychologist who was willing to speak with me. The information is out there for students, if they actually want to take the time and effort to look for it. Most don't. They'd rather make poor decisions and blame someone else about it later when they actually have to pay for those decisions.

 

[Justanothergrad]

My undergrad advisor was one of the psych faculty (the advantage of a small liberal arts school). He frequently showed up 5-10 minutes late to our meetings intentionally and told him it was his way of shaping my Type A personality with behaviorism. It was rarely about professional mentoring. I tend to agree mostly with WisNeuro that the information is out there for those looking. Admittedly, however, I wish I had more professional guidance as an undergrad. In the case of that information being posted, I would be tempted to post an educational flyer beside it about the dangers of the for-profit. It seems more balanced and provides a better opportunity for the student. If that information is there and not counter-pointed, I wonder if it sends an implicit message that 'this is the normal path'/'this is the typical path'/'this is a widely accepted best path'.

When I meet individually with students who want information about application processes, I am very blunt and point them to resources. I tell them to read and I'll give them this site and books, as well as articles and information to look at. I discourage debt as a poor investment and talk to them about the same things we do here. I want them to know where to get information and put it on them to do that, but I do highlight the crap of a for-profit model.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

I was fortunate to go to a small liberal arts college where I had two psych faculty members as my mentors. I was assigned to a cognitive psych when I started there, but as I declared my major and found my interest in clinical/counseling I added on a licensed clinical psych on our faculty as an unofficial mentor. They were one of 2-3 clinical/counseling folks on faculty at the time, with the others being very old guard and I don't believe licensed any longer.

I was fortunate to work with this clinical mentor on research and have lots of discussions about grad school, the app process, etc informally in 1 on 1 settings. I was steered away from the mills and for-profits at the outset. Mainly their costs + reputation really scared me and how that would impact my career. I took this advice and never considered them in my application process. We also spoke briefly about this in one of my advanced psych honors courses, a seminar on research something or other, where conversations often shifted into grad school and professional development (benefit of having class sizes <15).

I think information is key, and having someone share it who is trustworthy, has your best interests at heart, and has walked that path and knows what they are speaking about.

I have never seen flyers posted like this at a couple Universities I have been at in various roles. I am curious what your dept policy is on this stuff?

 

[WisNeuro]

I have never seen flyers posted like this at a couple Universities I have been at in various roles. I am curious what your dept policy is on this stuff?

It's not that unusual. I went to a public state R1 for undergrad and remember seeing stuff for Nova and Argosy all over the place. One look at tuition and lack of tuition remission immediately steered me away, but I'm sure it snared a few people to apply.

 

[Justanothergrad]

We had a CIA psychologist recruitment poster at my masters program...


Dodged that bullet lol.

 

[bcliff]

As an undergrad, I worked in three labs, all of which were lead by clinical PhDs with different backgrounds (i.e., community psych, trauma, peds). Their input was helpful in informing me how to make the most of my undergrad training but didn't give me much in terms of planning for graduate school -- I did leave undergrad knowing that I wanted to pursue a clinical psych PhD. I definitely received more specific mentorship with regard to graduate training from postdocs and faculty that I worked with in a couple of clinical and research positions during my "gap years" after undergrad and before beginning my PhD. Admittedly, I think the most salient and impactful "advising" I received was provided here on SDN.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Admittedly, I think the most salient and impactful "advising" I received was provided here on SDN.

I wish I knew about SDN when I was a young'n.

 

[calimich]

Thanks for the replies so far, some interesting stuff. It seems there is a general lack of "good" undergrad advising regarding counseling/clinical paths. As I mentioned earlier, psych is a popular major on our campus and the counseling/clinical focus area is the most popular within the major. Part of the reason I was hired was to meet this demand.

I have never seen flyers posted like this at a couple Universities I have been at in various roles. I am curious what your dept policy is on this stuff?

AFAIK, there is no official policy on posting stuff in our department, at least on the faculty side. Faculty are given the benefit of the doubt to post reputable info -- obviously not happening with the examples I gave. The one flyer from Cal Northstate U was also sent out via email to all our students. That was really the first time I'd publicly pushed back a bit and encouraged students to reconsider and come talk with me. As the newest faculty member, and the only one pre-tenure, on one hand I'm treading lightly, on the other, this is partly why they wanted a licensed person. As I'm feeling more settled with teaching, research, service, I'm beginning to give more attention to advising. At least that's what I'm thinking for next year.

The information is out there for students, if they actually want to take the time and effort to look for it. Most don't. They'd rather make poor decisions and blame someone else about it later when they actually have to pay for those decisions.

I agree with the first part -- the info is definitely out there. The second, not so much. At least not in my experience so far. Students have been very eager to talk with me and learn of the options and follow up in the directions I send them. Most come back saying they had no idea and are thankful for the advice. I'm curious if your statement is based on anecdotal or empirical evidence? I imagine there is literature about advising, it's just not my area.

In the case of that information being posted, I would be tempted to post an educational flyer beside it about the dangers of the for-profit. It seems more balanced and provides a better opportunity for the student. If that information is there and not counter-pointed, I wonder if it sends an implicit message that 'this is the normal path'/'this is the typical path'/'this is a widely accepted best path'.

Yes, this is what I'm working on -- a concise info flyer; and I took down the Argosy and Cal North info and put them in the round file.

Others willing to share what your undergrad advising was like?

 

[WisNeuro]

I agree with the first part -- the info is definitely out there. The second, not so much. At least not in my experience so far. Students have been very eager to talk with me and learn of the options and follow up in the directions I send them. Most come back saying they had no idea and are thankful for the advice. I'm curious if your statement is based on anecdotal or empirical evidence? I imagine there is literature about advising, it's just not my area.

Anecdotal, mostly. Although, I'd argue you could look at the enrollment numbers of high cost programs and say that it is evidence enough. As I said, the students who are serious about it, will do some research beforehand and look into things. Many, won't.

 

[Temperance]

My undergraduate institution has a professional development class that is required for psychology majors, and it covers types of work available in academia and across human services fields, how to choose a profession, how to choose a graduate program should one's chosen profession require it, and other general, non-psychology professional development concepts (e.g., interviewing, résumés). At least one instructor linked students interested in clinical or counseling fields to Dr. Prinstein's guide.

It may be different now, but, while I was there, I sensed that there was some tension among faculty when talking about professional schools because, at least in the cases of which I'm aware, they were very subtle when trying to discourage students from considering FSPS. Loan debt was easier to discuss but not always successful. No flyers were posted in the department, but there wasn't much of a need to do because almost everyone was aware of Argosy and Alliant.

Personally, I got more bad advice from fellow students than from faculty.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Those of you who work with undergrads, how do you educate students and peers about this issue? Other thoughts about how to "get the word out"?

I have half a lecture (in Abnormal Psych) dedicated to careers in mental health that covers different degrees, jobs, and salaries. Within that lecture, I discuss PsyD/PhD, debt, internship, and large-cohort programs. With advisees I often stress the need to avoid debt in grad school.

Its definitely a sticky situation. We have some flyers posted here but none at high-offending programs like Argosy or unaccredited programs. I would probably rip down any ad for an exploitative program.

 

[NeuroWise]

My undergraduate psych mentoring was wonderful because I sought out the correct people. That is, the psychology department, like all other departments, had undergraduate mentoring services but these were generally unhelpful beyond detailing which classes students needed to take to graduate. I quickly sought the advice of actual faculty members and began to learn about the differences in training (clinical vs non) and structured my career plans accordingly. Both the clinical and non clinical faculty taught undergrads, so I was able to learn from both. However, I think the single most beneficial thing I did was identify a grad student in my new research lab with interests similar to my nascent ones and "hitched my wagon" to theirs. I essentially became this particular grad student's RA and assisted him with all of his projects, and learned about the field from someone currently training in it. My relationship with the grad student also provided me with more access and cache with the lab's director (the PhD) because I was invited to some of their meetings to discuss specific research projects. This grad student (now a licensed neuropsychologist) continues to be a close personal friend and collaborator. I have tried to establish similar relationships with the RAs in my current advisor's lab and it has worked great. Several of the RAs who became "my RA" have been admitted to clinical PhD programs. So my anecdotal evidence suggests to me this model works.

Something my undergraduate psychology department provided was a seminar on careers in psychology that was provided by both licensed and unlicensed faculty. It was there that I learned the importance of research productivity, not simply being in a lab, in being admitted to grad school. This was offered once each semester, and I found it to be super helpful.

My current grad program has established an undergraduate mentoring program in which willing grad students sign up to be assigned an undergraduate or two who have a desire to pursue psychology beyond the bachelors. The nature of the mentorship is largely left up to those involved. For conscientious and serious students, it seems to be helpful. I can share the limited materials we are provided by the program if anyone wants them.

An aside: As I have progressed through grad school I have been continually frustrated by undergraduates not in my lab. A lot of them are simply clueless, and I don't think there is much of an excuse for it. They have Google! It is crazy to me that these people are attempting to embark on a career with super limited information simply because they have not sought the necessary information.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I went to undergrad with a decent, balanced PhD program, and I would say that faculty never warned us about FSPS or excessive debt. I also mentored students on post-undergraduate school and work options and included a lot of discussion about debt and opportunity cost issues. I sometimes wonder if part of the reason that debt wasn’t discussed much was that the clinical PhD program there was pretty poorly funded at the time. (I get the sense that it has since improved, although still isn’t fully funded).

Debt issues with masters programs—which usually aren’t funded—also need to be discussed more, IMO.

 

[artsyann]

My undergrad program has several licensed professors. They all were very helpful with advising and mentoring me. One was against most PsyD programs, while another had a more balanced perspective. While they didn’t come right out and say do this or that, they did offer good advice about the programs and opportunities afterwards.

 

[CatsFan]

My current grad program has established an undergraduate mentoring program in which willing grad students sign up to be assigned an undergraduate or two who have a desire to pursue psychology beyond the bachelors. The nature of the mentorship is largely left up to those involved. For conscientious and serious students, it seems to be helpful. I can share the limited materials we are provided by the program if anyone wants them.

I’d be interested in these materials, if you’re willing to share! My program is in the process of trying to create something like this.