Affirmative action et al

[gofer]

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I was reading some other thread on minority preference.

I am Native American and my brother and I don't believe in affirmative action. I don't like to argue and I will not debate or challenge anyone's views because everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I will say this. Our Indian Elders always said something similar to "May the best team win" during our games. So the best candidates always deserve an acceptance to medical school. Race is, and should be, a non-issue.

Skin color is only skin deep. We are all created from Earth and we will all return to the Earth when our time on this land is up. We are all equal in the eyes of our Grandfather, who some of us call Great Creator, while others call Buddha, Jesus, God or by some other name.

It doesn't matter if some of us are disadvantaged. It doesn't matter if some of you are privileged. Some are born blind and some are born with special abilities. The Great Creator made us that way for a reason. That reason is probably beyond our comprehension. Life is like a game of cards - some have good cards and some have bad cards. It doesn't matter who has good cards and who has bad cards. What matters is how you play the game.

Affirmative action is morally wrong. A person did not choose to be White just like I did not choose to be Native American.

Similarly some of us go to schools where the top student gets at most a 3.0 while some go to schools where everyone gets close to a 4.0. Some go to West Potato Community College while some go to Super Ivy University. Some have untenured professors who are very liberal with grades because they know good grades have a strong correlation on favorable student evaluations of the faculty and because they are struggling for tenure, they always give everyone an A. Some of us have mean/tenured professors who don't care for student evaluations and give the best students a B. Some have studied in countries like Canada where they have a tradition of giving generous grades while others have studied in Britain or former British territories where getting even a high second class is worth celebrating. Similarly, some happen to meet pleasant and friendly professors and doctors who write generous letters of recommendation. While others have the misfortune of encountering professors and doctors who hate giving out good letters of recommendation.

Because of these reasons, I also wish medical schools will stop looking at criteria like recommendation letters, statement of purpose, performance on courses (grades), etc. Yes, even grades shouldn't matter. Only one parameter needs to be assessed in accepting students to a medical school. And that parameter needs to be: performance on the MCAT.

I wish medical schools would look ONLY at standardized MCAT scores instead of looking at factors like grades, race, recommendation letters, the quality of your undergraduate institution, etc.

I have nothing more to add. Like I said, I don't like to argue and I will not debate or challenge anyone's views because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Thank you for listening.

 

[PreMedder]

and let the flame-war ensue...

 

[mmmcdowe]

The last generation tried emphasizing the MCAT more than we did, it didn't work out as perfectly as you envision. Even the MCAT can be biased by way of life, income, and school. Don't you think the rich person with no dependents and a private tutor has a slight advantage over someone with a kid and a family that relies on them for income? Also, the MCAT score is not meant to be the indicator of clinical ability, it is supposed to be an estimate of mental ability and educational preparedness. My advice is to play the cards that are given you. The world isn't an idyllic utopia, things aren't fair and you have to play by the rules of the game as best you can. The fact of the matter is that you, a native american, are more likely to care about native american health than I am. Native americans, in turn, are more likely to trust and build a relationship with you than me. It isn't right, but it is the way people are and that is why we need to look after everyone as best we can even if policies like AA aren't 100% perfect like we would like everything to be.

Sometimes we have to settle for what is necessary, not what is right.

 

[Neurocentric]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something, but is there a real point to this post? I mean, if the OP isn't going to argue, and is merely stating his opinion.. why not just post this to a blog or something?

 

[ronaldo23]

I was reading some other thread on minority preference.

I am Native American and my brother and I don't believe in affirmative action. I don't like to argue and I will not debate or challenge anyone's views because everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I will say this. Our Indian Elders always said something similar to "May the best team win" during our games. So the best candidates always deserve an acceptance to medical school. Race is, and should be, a non-issue.

Skin color is only skin deep. We are all created from Earth and we will all return to the Earth when our time on this land is up. We are all equal in the eyes of our Grandfather, who some of us call Great Creator, while others call Buddha, Jesus, God or by some other name.

It doesn't matter if some of us are disadvantaged. It doesn't matter if some of you are privileged. Some are born blind and some are born with special abilities. The Great Creator made us that way for a reason. That reason is probably beyond our comprehension. Life is like a game of cards - some have good cards and some have bad cards. It doesn't matter who has good cards and who has bad cards. What matters is how you play the game.

Affirmative action is morally wrong. A person did not choose to be White just like I did not choose to be Native American.

Similarly some of us go to schools where the top student gets at most a 3.0 while some go to schools where everyone gets close to a 4.0. Some go to West Potato Community College while some go to Super Ivy University. Some have untenured professors who are very liberal with grades because they know good grades have a strong correlation on favorable student evaluations of the faculty and because they are struggling for tenure, they always give everyone an A. Some of us have mean/tenured professors who don't care for student evaluations and give the best students a B. Some have studied in countries like Canada where they have a tradition of giving generous grades while others have studied in Britain or former British territories where getting even a high second class is worth celebrating. Similarly, some happen to meet pleasant and friendly professors and doctors who write generous letters of recommendation. While others have the misfortune of encountering professors and doctors who hate giving out good letters of recommendation.

Because of these reasons, I also wish medical schools will stop looking at criteria like recommendation letters, statement of purpose, performance on courses (grades), etc. Yes, even grades shouldn't matter. Only one parameter needs to be assessed in accepting students to a medical school. And that parameter needs to be: performance on the MCAT.

I wish medical schools would look ONLY at standardized MCAT scores instead of looking at factors like grades, race, recommendation letters, the quality of your undergraduate institution, etc.

I have nothing more to add. Like I said, I don't like to argue and I will not debate or challenge anyone's views because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Thank you for listening.

AA is a solid debate for maybe a political forum or a philosophical debate in person, but on SDN it will just degenerate into the same arguments from both sides every time. just do a search and you will see each thread about AA is the exact same thing ...

as someone else said, your argument about mcat would only be useful if we could somehow guarantee everyone has the exact same funds to prepare for the test. MCAT merely weeds people out based on supply/demand...a "30+" is not inherently needed to survive in medical school and perform well as a clinician. It is merely one standard to compare applicants, one of many factors that can be used to assess the quality of an applicant relative to others. Most medical schools will take the 4.0/30 MCAT student over the 3.0/40 student, because the former has proven he has the drive to succeed. Medicine is hardly an intellectual field- it's all about work ethic.

 

[Prism328]

well I'm kind of on the fence about AA, on the one hand, it basically punsihes those who work the hardest and get the best grades (albet a generalization) and on the other hand, without AA, there would be very few people to represent and help their fellow minorities. I do believe though that poor grades from minorities stem more from being economically disadvantaged so I think any policy that helps the economically disadvantaged is probability better and more fair to everybody than AA

 

[Narmerguy]

AA is a solid debate for maybe a political forum or a philosophical debate in person, but on SDN it will just degenerate into the same arguments from both sides every time. just do a search and you will see each thread about AA is the exact same thing ...

This is all that needs to be said. This OP is also obviously a troll attempting to bait people into the flame war that always invariably follows. What's silly is how frequently people flock to the opportunity anyway.

 

[gofer]

and let the flame-war ensue...

I apologize if the topic was already discussed to death. If it is likely to create a flame war, I request the moderator of SDN to delete my post.

 

[mdbound1987]

Yeah you definitely started a flame war. There is no need to express all of the facets of why AA is important, but just so you know for future reference, URM status with med school admissions and AA are two different things. URM status is used in order to create more diversity in medicine due to healthcare discrepancies in the areas where these minorities tend to live. Other factors come into play...such as certain minorities refuse to go to the doctor because they do not trust white people (and most races (such as asian, indian, etc.) other than blacks and hispanics are grouped in the "white" category). It sounds harsh, but that's just the way it is. So having physicians of the same race as them creates a level of comfort in them that allows them to trust the healthcare system enough to go to the doctor. Also, as others have said, that MCAT idea is horrible.

 

[Midwestern Blot]

Forcing diversity is racism any way you slice it. AA causes more problems than it solves.

 

[KPCOFGS]

fine, don't claim disadvantaged status then. more of a chance for me. now can this topic be done?

 

[smarttee88]

Forcing diversity is racism any way you slice it. AA causes more problems than it solves.

I just wanted to note that flame wars ensue due to biased, generalized statements similar to the one bolded above. Still I will refrain from engaging. Carry on.

 

[Midwestern Blot]

I just wanted to note that flame wars ensue due to biased, generalized statements similar to the one bolded above. Still I will refrain from engaging. Carry on.

Proud of you.

 

[JJMrK]

I was reading some other thread on minority preference.

I am Native American and my brother and I don't believe in affirmative action. I don't like to argue and I will not debate or challenge anyone's views because everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I will say this. Our Indian Elders always said something similar to "May the best team win" during our games. So the best candidates always deserve an acceptance to medical school. Race is, and should be, a non-issue.

Skin color is only skin deep. We are all created from Earth and we will all return to the Earth when our time on this land is up. We are all equal in the eyes of our Grandfather, who some of us call Great Creator, while others call Buddha, Jesus, God or by some other name.

It doesn't matter if some of us are disadvantaged. It doesn't matter if some of you are privileged. Some are born blind and some are born with special abilities. The Great Creator made us that way for a reason. That reason is probably beyond our comprehension. Life is like a game of cards - some have good cards and some have bad cards. It doesn't matter who has good cards and who has bad cards. What matters is how you play the game.

Affirmative action is morally wrong. A person did not choose to be White just like I did not choose to be Native American.

Similarly some of us go to schools where the top student gets at most a 3.0 while some go to schools where everyone gets close to a 4.0. Some go to West Potato Community College while some go to Super Ivy University. Some have untenured professors who are very liberal with grades because they know good grades have a strong correlation on favorable student evaluations of the faculty and because they are struggling for tenure, they always give everyone an A. Some of us have mean/tenured professors who don't care for student evaluations and give the best students a B. Some have studied in countries like Canada where they have a tradition of giving generous grades while others have studied in Britain or former British territories where getting even a high second class is worth celebrating. Similarly, some happen to meet pleasant and friendly professors and doctors who write generous letters of recommendation. While others have the misfortune of encountering professors and doctors who hate giving out good letters of recommendation.

Because of these reasons, I also wish medical schools will stop looking at criteria like recommendation letters, statement of purpose, performance on courses (grades), etc. Yes, even grades shouldn't matter. Only one parameter needs to be assessed in accepting students to a medical school. And that parameter needs to be: performance on the MCAT.

I wish medical schools would look ONLY at standardized MCAT scores instead of looking at factors like grades, race, recommendation letters, the quality of your undergraduate institution, etc.

I have nothing more to add. Like I said, I don't like to argue and I will not debate or challenge anyone's views because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Thank you for listening.

1. Attempting to create a diverse class has nothing to do with medical schools attempting to even the playing field to compensate for racism. It has everything to do creating physicians that will serve the broadest possible spectrum of human beings.

2. While one's test taking ability is important to success in medical school, medical students and physicians need to be able to interact and communicate with their peers and patients. Essays, letters of recommendation, and interviews allow medical schools to assess this ability.

 

[NickNaylor]

Always successful in AA/URM threads.

 

[Medwell]

Awesome, OP. If I had a medical school, I wouldn't even ask for race on the application. And if 80% of the people I decided to admit ended up being Hispanic females - too bad for everyone else. I'm not going to reject someone more qualified because of their gender and skin color.

Personally, the further an admissions process deviates from my ideal approach above, the more racist it becomes.

 

[dmexs]

The last generation tried emphasizing the MCAT more than we did, it didn't work out as perfectly as you envision. Even the MCAT can be biased by way of life, income, and school. Don't you think the rich person with no dependents and a private tutor has a slight advantage over someone with a kid and a family that relies on them for income? Also, the MCAT score is not meant to be the indicator of clinical ability, it is supposed to be an estimate of mental ability and educational preparedness. My advice is to play the cards that are given you. The world isn't an idyllic utopia, things aren't fair and you have to play by the rules of the game as best you can. The fact of the matter is that you, a native american, are more likely to care about native american health than I am. Native americans, in turn, are more likely to trust and build a relationship with you than me. It isn't right, but it is the way people are and that is why we need to look after everyone as best we can even if policies like AA aren't 100% perfect like we would like everything to be.

Sometimes we have to settle for what is necessary, not what is right.

I really like the way you put that. I think sometimes we're guilty of forgetting that medical schools are essentially providing a service by training clinicians for communities. A service that is more effective when people of the community appreciate its diversity.

Think not about how AA effects you and you're entry into medicine but more importantly what good it does for our future patients.

 

[LizzyM]

Awesome, OP. If I had a medical school, I wouldn't even ask for race on the application. And if 80% of the people I decided to admit ended up being Hispanic females - too bad for everyone else. I'm not going to reject someone more qualified because of their gender and skin color.

Personally, the further an admissions process deviates from my ideal approach above, the more racist it becomes.

good luck with that. The LCME, accreditation body for medical schools, will ask the racial make-up of your applicant pool, those you admit and those who matriculate. If you don't have those data, you will not be accredited.

 

[drizzt3117]

The reason there's always debate about this is simply bc what medical schools think is important in candidates is different than what premeds think should be important. It's not necessarily about admitting the most "qualified" canidates on paper. In general, and I think there are a few exceptions, med schools do a pretty good job evaluating candidates.

At my particular school, we're actually moving towards valuing more qualitative assessment rather than quantitative. I think this is generally a good thing because IMO the qualities necessary to be a successful medical student and physician don't necessarily correlate that well with quantitative measures. Obviously some skill set needs to be there, but work ethic, time management, and organization correlate better with success in the preclinicals than MCAT/GPA etc IMO, and the skill set necessary for years 3-4 and beyond is again vastly different.

 

[Prism328]

I guess I don't have a problem with AA, as people said, its neccessary for diversity. However, I do wish that medical schools stop claiming that they are not discriminatory.

 

[deleted325463]

I long held the view that AA was wrong because it simply wasn't fair and was discriminating against other races for the sake of the underprivileged/underrepresented/whatever you want to call it. And of course, my view was held stronger by the fact that I am disadvantaged because of my race.

But think about it. Imagine if there were no AA. The demographics of a medical school would be vastly different from those of the nation. There needs to be diversity in medical schools because we need doctors from diverse backgrounds to help a diverse patient population. My point is that the ends justify the means, even if it means doing so at my expense.

 

[mdbound1987]

I long held the view that AA was wrong because it simply wasn't fair and was discriminating against other races for the sake of the underprivileged/underrepresented/whatever you want to call it. And of course, my view was held stronger by the fact that I am disadvantaged because of my race.

But think about it. Imagine if there were no AA. The demographics of a medical school would be vastly different from those of the nation. There needs to be diversity in medical schools because we need doctors from diverse backgrounds to help a diverse patient population. My point is that the ends justify the means, even if it means doing so at my expense.

I don't know how old you are, but you are definitely wise beyond your years because there are so many people in your position who cannot see this. The truth is, 99% of those who complain will never utter another word about discrimination once they are accepted. It is simply the fact that it hurts THEIR chances; they are not worried about it being an issue for all non-URMs. Once they "get theirs," they are content and will move on without continuing to speak out for other non-URMs who they feel are being slighted (even though they are not). This is why you never see this topic in the med school forum and only the pre-med forum. Even those medical students who used to feel it was discrimination now see the importance once they are interacting with their URM classmates and URM patients. Medical schools know how to choose their students. Obviously they wouldn't do this if these URMs who may have lower mcats and gpa were failing out of medical school. They are doing well, in some cases much better than they did in undergrad. My reality is that as a URM, I will, for the rest of my life, have to be much better than my non-URM colleagues in order to gain the same amount of respect in the medical field (this goes for most professions as well). I don't complain because I cannot control it and it is a reality, so why complain about this alleged discrimination? It is not within your control; it is a reality, so just deal with it and do what you have to do to get accepted. Otherwise you will just be a whiner who won't be in medical school.