agricultural ethics question

[hopefulvet21]

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Just wondering about a certain issue because it was addressed in my interview and I didn't really know what to say...

I have no farm animal experience, but they were asking me whether I felt it was acceptable to castrate bulls, pigs, etc. without anesthesia. We had just finished discussing how horses are castrated with anesthesia. They also asked me whether I thought sheep or pigs felt pain in the same way as horses.

My answer was something along these lines: I'm not an expert on it, but I think most higher vertebrates feel pain in similar ways, so I don't think a sheep's pain is that different from a horse's. It's possible that a horse may feel more emotional pain in some cases...but again I'm not sure (at that point one of the interviewers assured me that she wasn't sure either). So I suppose I don't really feel it's right to be castrating them without pain prevention, when we do do it for horses.

Then they asked me why I thought that most farmers in the US and Europe do castrate without anesthesia- and I said probably because it is less costly and takes less time.

Was this a reasonable answer? I have thought about this issue, but never really researched it much- but I hope I didn't sound completely misinformed...whether you agree or not, I'd just like to know if my answer seems reasonable. thanks!

 

[BodhiBird]

I think it sounds reasonable. I'm sure pigs, sheep, etc feel the same amount of pain as a horse does. I have read several things that say pigs are more "intelligent" than dogs, but could you imagine having your dog castrated without any meds on board? Makes sense that is just time and money... also probably the worth society places on pigs, sheep, etc compared to companion animals. Personally I don't think it is ethical, but I'd be curious to find out how much more animal products would cost if we anesthetized every animal for castration... I'm a vegetarian, but I do have wool and leather in my closet... and I am practical enough to accept this is a meat eating society and we need affordable meat for people to eat.

 

[aspiringDVM]

Sounds like a darn good, well considered answer to me.
I too am wondering how you could practically anesthetize all food animals for castration. Not only does it seem that prices would skyrocket, I can't imagine the logistics of anesthetizing and recovering animals in the volumes that would be required. Maybe some sort of local anesthetic?

 

[bmichs75DVM]

During my veterinary and animal experience, I have had the opportunity to castrate many different animals (cow, pigs, and horses). Except for horses, we did not use any type of anesthetic/analgesic. Personally, I think anesthetizing cows and pigs for castration is a bit of a far stretch for me. They seem to do fine with out it. If anything, I would maybe administer a long acting analgesic such as flu-nix to manage pain. But other than that I think it is fine.

As for your question answer, I think it was a valid answer.

 

[sumstorm]

I think another issue is that at family farms, many farmers castrate without veterinary supervision. I can't imagine paying a vet to castrate the dozens of heads of stock that my folks raise. So, not only would the cost of meat increase due to the use of anesthetic, the cost for the professional to administer it would increase cost.

The sad thing about things like that is there would be less of an affect on industrial farming, which I really feel isn't healthy for animals, than on the family farmer, who tends to keep thier animals in better conditions than industrial farms.

I grew up castrating, caponizing, and dehorning, not to mention shearing, hoof care, etc. If we had to pay a vet for all of that, we would of closed the barn doors decades ago.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I've seen a dozen or so calf castrations (usually surgical/avulsions) and never once have I seen a calf give any indication that it is anything more than a little uncomfortable. At first I thought it might be just a stoic behavioral thing....but they are back out on the field, grazing, acting totally normal (no sick signs or pain signs, like standing alone, anorexia, etc...that is what a painful food animal does, separates itself from the herd and is lethargic and doesn't eat) almost immediately. They're tough little guys and bounce right back.

Same thing after a dehorning/cauterizing using only a little bit of local lidocaine and banamine. I'm sure they feel some pain but....they sure don't act like it. I think the economics and time are really what dictates it.

 

[BR549]

Your answer sounded pretty good. From my understanding, if an inexperienced person cuts a horse, they can disembowel it. I have actually seen a poor horse that this happened to. My family (cousins) owns a livestock auction and they cut the calves so quick, it would be impractical to use local anesthetics. My dogs sure do love the byproducts and we used to fry them up. Taste like chicken!😀 Although, everything alien tastes like chicken. The area heals fairly quickly and it doesn't seem to cause the animal any long term discomfort (this could be a sign that they are not in pain, or just a ploy to reduce predation...aka instinct.)

And to sumstorm, I agree. The barn hasn't had a vet out since the eradicaiton of TB in GA. A "trained person" sleeves the calves (even though farmers have brought supposedly 6 month bred cows back, 3 months later and the cow shows no signs of calving! oops!)

 

[168135]

I read somewhere that when cats and dogs are in pain, they have to be in a lot of pain in order for them to show it. They do it as a survival mechanism. That's why you take your animals in for annual checkups. They could be in pain and if you wait until they show it, it could be too late 😛

I was just thinking... wouldn't the same apply to farm animals as well?

If that were the case, I would not be comfortable castrating an animal without painkillers or anesthesia.

This is one of the reasons why I do not want to practice large animal medicine. I'm not comfortable with the "factory farm" method of raising animals for human consumption. I just feel that large animals should be treated in the same manner as companion animals and wildlife and all of the other animals out there, and not have their standard of care compromised because they're going to be slaughtered anyway for us to eat. Just because it's the norm in society, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

 

[bbergs3]

I took an animal behavior course and we actually discussed a similar topic. We were asked two questions: (1) Why has pain management in farm animals not progressed to the same degree as in companion animals? (2) Do prey and predator species process pain differently? These were the responses our professor gave us: (1) Pain is sometimes overlooked by farmers and vets; economic considerations; there is a lack of demand for new analgesics for the agricultural species; and there is a concern about drug residues in foods. (2) The apparent contrast in pain responses b/w prey and predator species may not be due to variation in pain processing, but due to fundamental differences in their respective responsiveness to stress and fear. The display of pain in farm animals may be overridden by the need to escape from predators-a natural instinct. Hope this helps a little...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm not comfortable with the "factory farm" method of raising animals for human consumption

These castration/dehorning method aren't just factory farming...this all applies also to your average small farmer with a few hundred head, and your subsistence farmer with a few dozen head. Even more so, because small farmers seriously cannot afford all the fancy drugs and such with the food economy as it is.

It takes a lot of pain for animals to show it as in freaking out, squealing, biting, etc (but then again, my cat screeches when a rectal thermometer is put in....so it is all relative). But like I said, the number ONE sign of a painful small or PREY animal is self-imposed isolation/going off feed. Goats refuse to eat and generally go ADR. Cows stand apart from the herd. Horses avoid their pasturemates. They make be stoic and not show pain as in cryin or bawling, but there are definite behaviors that you will definitely see if that animal is painful, 99.9% of the time, stoicism or not. And I've never seen a castrated calf do that, ever, unless it was sick to begin with or the procedure was done wrong.

The first time I saw a castration my jaw dropped. I couldnt believe they weren't using anything, maybe a little banamine but that way is. The calf didn't even flinch, came right out of the headgate and back out into the field, straight to its buddies and was chomping back away on grass. Since then, and the other I have seen, I've become comfortable with the procedure as is...but that is just me.

 

[VAgirl]

The first time I saw a castration my jaw dropped. I couldnt believe they weren't using anything, maybe a little banamine but that way is. The calf didn't even flinch, came right out of the headgate and back out into the field, straight to its buddies and was chomping back away on grass. Since then, and the other I have seen, I've become comfortable with the procedure as is...but that is just me.

Interesting, because the only farm animal castration I've seen was some piglets (4 weeks old, maybe 25lbs each, definitely at the borderline for what is "acceptable" to castrate w/out drugs). And their responses were off the charts. I know pigs are much more prone to squealing, etc., but these pigs were so completely stressed they actually became scarily quiet, cowering in the corners, very obviously exhibiting signs of extreme stress. My description isn't sufficient, but in all, I was shocked at how awful it was. My thought was that they were too old. Any other thoughts/ideas? Its interesting to hear your story about the calves in light of my experience. It's something I really need to learn more about...

 

[SHEEPRL]

I raise sheep which includes docking tails/castrating. I use a "bander" which is a small super strong rubber band. After about two minutes the area goes numb and the lambs get up and play. I however feel that it should be done within the first week to two weeks as the are more inclined to recover easily/quickly, most sheep raisers follow this guideline. I think the reason horses are given pain killers is because the average age of castration is ~6 months. When they have full sensory perception. Calves, lambs and piglets are done way earlier than this, and may not be quite as developed in that area. This has to do with the age the testicles descend into the scrotum. Lambs testicles are born descended while some horses may not descend until 6 months or later(variation of course). With that being said I fully think animals feel some sort of sensation if not pain even when it is done, even at an early age. I agree with an earlier post that pointed out that calves are done in a matter of minutes and anesthia would be costly to a rancher. I think your response to your interview question was fine they cannot expect us to know everything! 🙂

 

[Lckynmbrslefman]

We do a lot of the goat/sheep castrations at my school with a burdizzo (the clamp). In most cases, the goat or sheep struggles a bit when we first clamp down on the chord but then go quiet after about 30 seconds. When we put them back out, they look a little sore but continue to eat and walk around normally. In that case I think it is better to just get it over quickly then stress them out with injections etc.

I also agree that the main reason that farmers shy away from anesthesia is cost and time. Obviously it is much easier to trap a bull calf in a chute and quickly castrate it then struggle with giving them anesthesia, waiting for them to get loopy and then having to wait for them to gain their footing again once the procedure is over. Maybe a little local wouldn't hurt, but a lot of times it seems almost less stressful for the animal if you just get them in and out quickly and there isn't all that waiting in a captive situation. Especially with the beef cattle...they are much happier out with their buddies then trapped inside a chute with you.

 

[sumstorm]

As noted above, on a small farm we routinely did these procedures, so definitly not limited to factory farms. Turning chicks into capons is the worst of the ones I did. we did everything incredibly young, though.

Having said that, many SA vets do remove dewclaws and dock tails without anethetic. Some refuse, but in my experience many more do, espeically dewclaw removal.

And, if you want to get into human medicine, there are several procedures that are done to humans, either as infants or adults, that are painful, without pain medication (depending on the doctor.)

I do believe it is much more of an economic situation, and to be honest, many people really have no idea where thier food/clothing/household goods come from, so I doubt it will really be something that changes. The farther we move from producing our own food, the less likely we are to really understand or comprehend what is done, and be able to determine if it is ok or not. I have a hard time judging a procedure that I haven't witnessed myself by an experienced and skilled individual.

Speaking of which, when I was in Thailand's Hill Tribe Villages with the Jumbo Express (traveling veterinary care for domesticated elephants) I watched the vet routinely scrub out wounds, set bones, and stitch humans up without anesthetic. Heck, my only dog bite ever (which happened this year) was to my brow, and I had 14 stitches without anesthetic (cleaning hurt worse than stitches.) So, pain management is also an aspect of the situation and circumstances.

I tossed this question to my father (who taught me how to castrate livestock) and he reminded me that anesthetics can also be unpredictable, especially in extremly young animals.

 

[robeezy08]

"Having said that, many SA vets do remove dewclaws and dock tails without anethetic. Some refuse, but in my experience many more do, espeically dewclaw removal."

Really?? I've never seen/heard of tail docking done w/o anesthetics....how old are the pups?

 

[BodhiBird]

Hey WhatsTheFrequency... is 12:50 pressed return a Pi quote by any chance? I love that movie, even better than Requiem.

 

[lenmaca]

"Having said that, many SA vets do remove dewclaws and dock tails without anethetic. Some refuse, but in my experience many more do, espeically dewclaw removal."

Really?? I've never seen/heard of tail docking done w/o anesthetics....how old are the pups?

I have seen this done usually within 3-4 days of birth.

One method of reasoning that I've heard is that pups are still developing neurologically after birth, therefore the procedure is supposedly not as painful and can be performed without anesthesia.
However, there is probably something that can be said about the vocal and physical responses from puppies as they experience tail docking/dewclaw removal. They usually become quite vocal and very wiggly.

 

[sumstorm]

I have seen this done usually within 3-4 days of birth.

One method of reasoning that I've heard is that pups are still developing neurologically after birth, therefore the procedure is supposedly not as painful and can be performed without anesthesia.
However, there is probably something that can be said about the vocal and physical responses from puppies as they experience tail docking/dewclaw removal. They usually become quite vocal and very wiggly.

Like Lenmaca, in my experience it is within 1wk of birth. The vets I grew up around (3) all did (all Purdue grads) and the 4 vets that I shadow/work with now do (1 does not.) Of those, we have a GA grad, to NCSU, one purdue, and the one who doesn't attended MI.

I have mixed feelings. From personal experience, at times, anesthetic application is more painful and problematic than the pain of the procedure. For example, having a toe, finger, or nose (especially nose) set is about as bad (maybe slightly worse) than the injections to numb those areas.

 

[jglovicz]

Interesting, because the only farm animal castration I've seen was some piglets (4 weeks old, maybe 25lbs each, definitely at the borderline for what is "acceptable" to castrate w/out drugs). And their responses were off the charts. I know pigs are much more prone to squealing, etc., but these pigs were so completely stressed they actually became scarily quiet, cowering in the corners, very obviously exhibiting signs of extreme stress. My description isn't sufficient, but in all, I was shocked at how awful it was. My thought was that they were too old. Any other thoughts/ideas? Its interesting to hear your story about the calves in light of my experience. It's something I really need to learn more about...

Not being an expert (by any stretch of the imagination), 4 weeks seems very old. Just judging by what I had to teach for "Intro to animal science", we were told that they were castrated, ear notched, and their sharp teeth were dulled in the first few days (I believe the 4th day of life)...this is a very interesting discussion. My two cents, I agree with the idea that horses are castrated later than others. I saw a calf castrated with the use of xylazine, but the vet that showed me did indicate that most people don't use anything. I, personally, believe that livestock, companion animals, and humans feel pain on a similar level...why wouldn't we? The reason animals are used for research is because mammals have similar structures/functions/immunities to humans. I can also sympathize with the idea that farmers (private or factory) need to earn a living and it simply may not be practical to sedate or provide analgesics to each animal that is castrated, in which case, I appreciate that castration is done at a young age (in the case of circumcision I don't believe the baby is given anything to ease the procedure) (okay, so maybe that was my 3 cents).

 

[EqSci]

Not being an expert (by any stretch of the imagination), 4 weeks seems very old. Just judging by what I had to teach for "Intro to animal science", we were told that they were castrated, ear notched, and their sharp teeth were dulled in the first few days (I believe the 4th day of life)...this is a very interesting discussion. My two cents, I agree with the idea that horses are castrated later than others. I saw a calf castrated with the use of xylazine, but the vet that showed me did indicate that most people don't use anything. I, personally, believe that livestock, companion animals, and humans feel pain on a similar level...why wouldn't we? The reason animals are used for research is because mammals have similar structures/functions/immunities to humans. I can also sympathize with the idea that farmers (private or factory) need to earn a living and it simply may not be practical to sedate or provide analgesics to each animal that is castrated, in which case, I appreciate that castration is done at a young age (in the case of circumcision I don't believe the baby is given anything to ease the procedure) (okay, so maybe that was my 3 cents).

Yes, I had a introductory class to livestock handling and we were taught that castrating, ear notching, removal of needle teeth, etc. was to be done NO LATER than 3 days of age because their neurologic function increases. They certainly squealed a lot, but they also squealed a lot when we picked them up and weighed them which was non-painful. I'm really staying in the middle as I don't have enough experience to judge for myself whether these animals feel a lot of pain or just discomfort.


Anyone think the pain involved for any animal may depend on the skills of the vet somewhat? I think technique can go a long way in minimizing pain. For example, I know as I've become more skilled at giving IM shots my horse's reaction has become less and less. I know when I get vaccines, it can hurt like heck or I can barely feel it depending on the person giving the shot. It crossed my mind that this could be true for procedures such as castrating, as well.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Pain in any form is a big concern in horses because pain messes up their gut motility and colic is a concern. Piglets are another thing...I think the restraint is really what makes them squeal, just because I've seen them squeal just as hard for a an ear tag or a shot as I have for castration...and hogs, oh my. As soon as I put the noose on their nose they SCREAMED! I haven't even done anything yet! Silly pigs 🙂 but I don't know quite as much about pigs so I can't speak on pain receptors, though.

Yep! Pi it is 😉

Anyone think the pain involved for any animal may depend on the skills of the vet somewhat? I think technique can go a long way in minimizing pain.

Absolutely! If you're spending too long doing something, or doing it incorrectly, you're definitely going to increased the amount of pain. I'm sure the first calf I dehorned was not very happy with me because the horns were a bit grown out and very difficult to remove, I struggled with all my strength for at least 10 seconds and someone had to actually help me.

 

[TSUJC]

Please remember that there are EXTREME regulations placed on the use of drugs for food-producing animals. Many of the drugs approved for companion animals are illegal to use in animals intended for human consumption. Withdrawal times vary from drug to drug which is why they should be carefully monitored. For example, most lambs are slaughtered before they are 6 months old. This leaves very little time for the residual drug to dissipate. For many prescriptions, information about withdrawal time is not available. Lack of information about withdrawal times might give rise to drug residues in food for human consumption and pose a potential hazard to human health.

Phenylbutazone is not approved for use in food producing animals, and is prohibited for use in dairy cattle greater than 20 months. On the other hand Banamine is approved for use in beef and lactating dairy cattle BUT using it for pain is considered extra-label since it is technically only approved for respiratory disease and endotoxemia.

Xylazine is approved for pain in cattle but the effects are very short lived (<1 hour) so it is not a good choice for “long-term pain management”. However, if a producer has the money……Xylazine would be a good choice for things like castration, tail docking ect.

Studies do show that stress of any kind will decrease growth rates and muscle deposition in cattle. So maybe more should be done to minimize pain during these procedures? Unfortunately, the consumer wants low cost products and producers simply cannot afford good pain drugs for every animal.

 

[hopefulvet21]

thanks for all the wonderful responses guys. I only wish my answer had been as well articulated as yours, but at least I didn't answer like a complete *****. I feel much better about that part of the interview now- I only wish I had posted this question earlier!! ...but carry on with this great exchange of views and knowledge/experience...

 

[sumstorm]

hopefulvet, I think your answer was right on target. You answered the basics, showed an understanding of economy vs medicine (which SA vets do need.) You shared your reasoning, and it makes sense. I think the only thing I would have said at all beyond that is that efficiency and skill, along with age of the animal, are crucial, but I wouldn't expect anyone who hasn't been entrenched in LA to have practical knowledge of those details.

I know on our farm, everything was such a fast procedure that it suprised people who expected the procedures to take a long time. Milking took longer, and in some cases, shearing took longer. It was a great question to pose to my father, who still runs a farm, and have some information I had forgotten, such as the fact that at the age of 52 he has performed castration and dehorning since he was 12...he has 40 years experience, which only relatively few vets can claim in our more urban/suburban culture.

 

[Ben and Me]

According to the large animal vet that I rode with, cattle are "put under" in order to be dehorned in Europe. He spent a summer over there and was amazed to see the vet knock out all the cattle he was about to dehorn. This is apparently mandated by law.

From what I witnessed, dehorning seemed to be much more painful than castration since the cattle were generally older. The vet said that he thought that US regulations (either through the vet community or by law) might equal those of Europe sometime in the near future.

I guess maybe young animal procedures could be compared to human circumcision? I don't know much about how that procedure is carried out, but from what I've seen (in movies, haha) it doesn't seem that pain relief is used.

 

[tealamutt]

the reason that they asked this question is because there is a huge movement to require analgesics and possibly anesthesia and a couple of pieces of legislation have already been proposed. The OP's answer was pretty much exactly what they were looking for I'm sure. Once you are in vet school it will be highly stressed to you that this is YOUR profession and that you should get involved in educating the public about issues like this.

Lack of public education is what got the "Anti-equine Cruelty Act" passed, I mean who could vote against something with that name? Yet I doubt anyone voting for it realized that they were condemming horses to having their throats cut with boxcuters and their bodies dumped on public land as has been happening more and more since this legislation was passed.

 

[cowgirl in MO]

I'm no expert either, but I was going to respond something along the lines of what TSUJC said, which is that working with cattle and other livestock means that you're not just working the animals -- you're making supper! I don't know the exact reason that anesthesia isn't used when castrating or banding calves (guess I should have asked), but my best educated guess is that anything you do to the calves is going to cost the farmer, and small-time farmers are barely making ends meet. They probably can't afford the extra few dollars (or whatever is costs) to anesthetize their calves for castration. Also, in all of my experience, the doctor is castrating lots of calves at a time, not just a few, and they do go very fast. There doesn't seem to be any time available to anesthetize the animals. Also, what I was told is that by "tailing" the cattle, which is bending the tail up and over the spine, the spinal cord is compressed enough that the calves aren't feeling it as much as you might think. I don't know what they feel, but I like knowing that hopefully it is true!

 

[HeartSong]

I think age plays a HUGE factor. We castrate goats first semester here. We were told that goats are normally castrated without anesthesia but since these guys were older, they had to be put under for the operation and given pain management.