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Hey guys...so basically, I will have a PharmD when I graduate and have been looking at MD/PhD programs since I have been working in 3 labs for 2+ years (and 1 for 1 year) when I apply. But...PharmD is a doctorate degree. Has anyone heard anything about, let's say, PhD's being rejected from an MD/PhD program because they already had a PhD? I'm going to call schools, but I already have a huge problem since I don't have a BS: Straight high school to PharmD.

I would think that having a PharmD isn't a problem, but one never knows.
 
Hey guys...so basically, I will have a PharmD when I graduate and have been looking at MD/PhD programs since I have been working in 3 labs for 2+ years (and 1 for 1 year) when I apply. But...PharmD is a doctorate degree. Has anyone heard anything about, let's say, PhD's being rejected from an MD/PhD program because they already had a PhD? I'm going to call schools, but I already have a huge problem since I don't have a BS: Straight high school to PharmD.

I would think that having a PharmD isn't a problem, but one never knows.

I think most schools will not accept students with either an MD or PhD (as in, I've seen that on a lot MSTP websites). I'm not sure how this applies to a PharmD. Is a thesis/dissertation based doctorate, or professional doctorate (such as a Doctor of Physical Therapy, DPT, or doctor of nursing practice, DPN)? I think the lack of a BS is probably your first and foremost problem, though.
 
Has anyone heard anything about, let's say, PhD's being rejected from an MD/PhD program because they already had a PhD? I'm going to call schools, but I already have a huge problem since I don't have a BS: Straight high school to PharmD.

You're right, you have two problems that will disqualify you from many MD-PhD programs.
 
Yes, it is a HUGE problem. I'll have to call and ask schools. It is a PharmD - doctor of pharmacy.
 
Yes, it is a HUGE problem. I'll have to call and ask schools. It is a PharmD - doctor of pharmacy.

Wikipedia said:
In the United States, the PharmD. (Doctor of Pharmacy) degree is a professional degree that prepares the graduate for pharmacy practice.

Wikipedia tells me a PharmD is a professional degree (the same as an MD or MPH, DPT, etc.), which is different from a PhD:
Wikipedia said:
Doctor of Philosophy, abbreviated as PhD, Ph.D., DPhil or D.Phil. (for the Latin philosophiae doctor or doctor philosophiae), in English-speaking countries, is a postgraduate academic degree awarded by universities.

and shouldn't disqualify you from an MD/PhD program in the same way having a PhD would. The lack of a BS is another story.

Hope it works out for you. :luck:
 
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You need to call some programs and ask them, OP. None of us can answer this question. What I can tell you though is that you can do straight MD or straight PhD after a PharmD. So if you can't do a combined program, the next best thing is going to be to apply to med school and then add on an MS or PhD later.

Please come back and post the schools' replies here, as other users can likely benefit from the same info.
 
I seriously doubt that having the PharmD will, de facto, disqualify you from admission (though, you may have to take care in explaining why you went for the PharmD and now want to pursue and MD/PhD training track). However, not having a bachelor's degree will very likely prevent you from getting into any MD/PhD or MST program out there. How much do you lack from your bachelor's? Maybe it would be feasible to take the necessary undergraduate courses to complete your degree?
 
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Wikipedia tells me a PharmD is a professional degree (the same as an MD or MPH, DPT, etc.), which is different from a PhD: and shouldn't disqualify you from an MD/PhD program in the same way having a PhD would. The lack of a BS is another story.

Example, UCLA MSTP

If I am a current graduate student, can I still apply to the MSTP?
Yes, but you must not have completed more than two years of graduate work if enrolled in a PhD program. Students who have completed a Master's degree are eligible to apply.​

And their school of medicine:

Applicants Who Have a Doctorate Degree: Applicants who have a doctorate degree must apply for freshman standing. The Admissions Committee is aware of the unique background of most of these applicants and, therefore, reviews them accordingly. They must complete all of the normal admission requirements.​

but

Premedical Education: Ordinarily a bachelor's degree is required for admission, but in certain instances students who have completed three full academic years at an accredited college or university might be accepted.​

There might be something in the NIH grant regarding holding an MD or a PhD.
 
So I will call the schools starting Aug. 15th and post responses ASAP.

In the interim, I will tell you right now that the lack of Bachelors is destroying both me and PharMed2016. It literally broke my heart to see this topic: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=833064

I have called, and confirmed. NYU, which is by far the most ridiculous, said they wouldn't accept ANY Pharmacy credits...which includes English, Chemistry, Organic, Calculus, etc--ANY class done within the scope of the Pharmacy major. Why? I am at a loss for words.

Hofstra and Albert Einstein have yet to get back to me, but most likely will say the same thing as NYU. Thus, I am 4 years away from "completing" a Bachelor's: if I transfer credits the school will ask for the original, and under the PharmD they will reject, so I will be back in the same position.

On a personal note, I am beyond outraged that schools are doing this. How can they justify this? Oh, a student was intelligent enough to get into a straight program from high school and undergoes the same requirements with a year of clinical training, but the degree obtained is inferior to a BACHELOR'S? Vomit inducing.

I will update with each school I call, both for MD and PhD so anyone referencing this topic will have closure.
 
So I will call the schools starting Aug. 15th and post responses ASAP.

In the interim, I will tell you right now that the lack of Bachelors is destroying both me and PharMed2016. It literally broke my heart to see this topic: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=833064

I have called, and confirmed. NYU, which is by far the most ridiculous, said they wouldn't accept ANY Pharmacy credits...which includes English, Chemistry, Organic, Calculus, etc--ANY class done within the scope of the Pharmacy major. Why? I am at a loss for words.

Hofstra and Albert Einstein have yet to get back to me, but most likely will say the same thing as NYU. Thus, I am 4 years away from "completing" a Bachelor's: if I transfer credits the school will ask for the original, and under the PharmD they will reject, so I will be back in the same position.

On a personal note, I am beyond outraged that schools are doing this. How can they justify this? Oh, a student was intelligent enough to get into a straight program from high school and undergoes the same requirements with a year of clinical training, but the degree obtained is inferior to a BACHELOR'S? Vomit inducing.

I will update with each school I call, both for MD and PhD so anyone referencing this topic will have closure.

There are always caveats to these programs. Look at the other prospective, they let someone into the program who isn't going into Pharm...
 
Absolutely vomit inducing. Have you taken your MCAT yet?
 
We have a PharmD in our lab who is an MSII MD/PhD student. I know that he got a lot of "You're absolutely insane" comments during interviews, but if you have a compelling reason for the MD/PhD you can definitely do it (I can only speak for my home program, PM me for specifics).

Edit: Didn't see that you don't have a bachelors... As other posters and you yourself have said, that'll be a bigger obstacle I would imagine.
 
I highly doubt anyone will say a Pharm D is not enough, go back and get your bachelor's degree.
 
I highly doubt anyone will say a Pharm D is not enough, go back and get your bachelor's degree.

I assume it's possible to get all the prereqs done with a PharmD ?
 
Hey guys, very busy, will update topic soon enough. Just came back from 2 finals and my birthday, so...

Absolutely vomit inducing. Have you taken your MCAT yet?

April.

I highly doubt anyone will say a Pharm D is not enough, go back and get your bachelor's degree.

I outlined the situation earlier. It is impossible for me to do this without going back for 4 years, and absolutely this will NOT happen.

1) I apply to local university, transferring my current credits. They make up some excuse that whatever course isn't equivalent.
2) I take whatever classes they want me to take since I have all the pre-requisites already.
3) I graduate with a "BS".
4) Medical Schools see this and a lot of transfer credits, ask me where the credits for the new university came from.
5) They see Pharmacy school and reject it all.
6) I do not have a "valid" BS. 95% Pharm + 5% extra = still pharmacy!

The only way for me to avoid this is to REDO 4 years. Not going to do this, not only for monetary reasons, but are you serious? Another 4 years when I'm a PharmD? I want MD badly but this is not worth any aspect of time or money.

I assume it's possible to get all the prereqs done with a PharmD ?

In Pharmacy school, I have taken:

1) Inorganic
2) Organic
3) Bio
4) Physics
5) Intensive writing courses (= to English, hell, I took English in high school for college credit)
6) Literally you name it for pre-meds, I took it.
7) ...Actual medical courses? Literally.

The lack of a BS will slaughter me, but I hope to be in the MD/PhD shoes soon.
 
I agree with the others and doubt you will be explicitly excluded. MD/PhD programs particularly tend to be a little more forgiving about unconventional backgrounds than MD programs which can get thousands of applications.

On the other hand, once you get past the screening process you may have a difficult time explaining your reasoning. From a certain perspective, if you are interested in an MD/PhD type career you made a mistake by going to pharmacy school. It will take a great deal of effort to make a convincing argument why they should choose you over an equally qualified applicant who doesn't have a proven track record of changing his mind.
 
I've heard it will be harder, but I'm honestly baffled why. No pre-med has the same experience I have when it comes to medicine, period. Without a doubt. Sure, you can shadow all you want. I have to do a year of clinical rotations, including dosing, monitoring, interventions, P&T committees, etc. I have taken a first step into the world of medicine and I want to advance my knowledge to complete the patient care circle. If anything, this isn't a "changing of the mind", it's "progressing the depth of clinical knowledge and care". I'm going to move from the recommendation to the decisions, something I will have a lot of exposure with on a level like no other. The exposure of being a pharmacy student gave me situations that required medical analysis and professional judgement, and I gained confidence in answering and communicating with other healthcare professionals.
 
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I've heard it will be harder, but I'm honestly baffled why. No pre-med has the same experience I have when it comes to medicine, period. Without a doubt. Sure, you can shadow all you want. I have to do a year of clinical rotations, including dosing, monitoring, interventions, P&T committees, etc. I have taken a first step into the world of medicine and I want to advance my knowledge to complete the patient care circle. If anything, this isn't a "changing of the mind", it's "progressing the depth of clinical knowledge and care". I'm going to move from the recommendation to the decisions, something I will have a lot of exposure with on a level like no other.

😕

How does any of that apply to going MD/PhD? If anything it makes it a harder sell.
 
I've heard it will be harder, but I'm honestly baffled why. No pre-med has the same experience I have when it comes to medicine, period. Without a doubt. Sure, you can shadow all you want. I have to do a year of clinical rotations, including dosing, monitoring, interventions, P&T committees, etc. I have taken a first step into the world of medicine and I want to advance my knowledge to complete the patient care circle. If anything, this isn't a "changing of the mind", it's "progressing the depth of clinical knowledge and care". I'm going to move from the recommendation to the decisions, something I will have a lot of exposure with on a level like no other. The exposure of being a pharmacy student gave me situations that required medical analysis and professional judgement, and I gained confidence in answering and communicating with other healthcare professionals.

Well shucks, don't let us get in your way...
 
This is long, but I think you need to hear it...

I have to do a year of clinical rotations, including dosing, monitoring, interventions, P&T committees, etc. I have taken a first step into the world of medicine and I want to advance my knowledge to complete the patient care circle.

Yes, but let me ask you this: Have you ever had a professor say before an exam "Answer the question that I wrote, not the question that you wished I wrote"? The reason I ask is because people often project their values onto others. Don't assume the admissions committee values any of these things you listed! I've never seen any medical school say that they look for candidates who have experience with dosing, interventions, or P&T committees.

It's the same kind of error that I think people make when they say they want to get a master's degree to help their chances of admission to medical school. I've never seen a med school suggest that they're looking for people with a master's degree.

What they do say is that they care a lot about the basic qualifiers (MCAT, GPA, and yes, usually a bachelor's degree). Then they usually say something about motivation, maturity, or interpersonal communication. Yes, your PharmD may allow the admissions committee to rank you highly in measures of experience with health care, but don't assume that they'll give you extra credit... there will also be plenty of applicants who get full credit on that scale.

No pre-med has the same experience I have when it comes to medicine, period.

I think you're over-estimating the uniqueness of your situation. I've known several registered nurses with many years of experience who go on to apply to med school, and if you dig around on SDN you'll see dentists, optometrists, physician's assistants and other experienced health care professionals, not to mention chiropractors, who are making the switch to medicine.

In any case, admissions committees neither expect nor require the kind of experience you're talking about. Your experiences may allow you to fulfill their benchmarks, but anything above that is like pouring water into a cup that's already full--it doesn't fill it any more!


NYU, which is by far the most ridiculous, said they wouldn't accept ANY Pharmacy credits...which includes English, Chemistry, Organic, Calculus, etc--ANY class done within the scope of the Pharmacy major. Why? I am at a loss for words.

...

On a personal note, I am beyond outraged that schools are doing this. How can they justify this? Oh, a student was intelligent enough to get into a straight program from high school and undergoes the same requirements with a year of clinical training, but the degree obtained is inferior to a BACHELOR'S? Vomit inducing.

Do you also think that if you walk into a grocery store in New York that you should expect to buy a loaf of bread for 5 British Pounds? No, most grocery stores will expect you to pay in US dollars, regardless of equivalency. They aren't set up to accept other denominations, and if they made a policy about British Pounds, then the next day someone would want to pay in Peruvian Nuevo Sol's, and the next day someone would want to pay in Indian Rupees. It's not reasonable to so many different currencies when it's so easy for everyone to go to a bank and get the right currency. Likewise it's not reasonable for medical schools to accept different classes from everyone when it's so easy for everyone to go to the course-bank (university) and get the right courses.

The indignation in your post reveals that you think that they should have special rules just for you, but that's not how it works. And you're not alone... Let me tell you a story: When I applied to medical school I had already finished my PhD in a biology field. Because I had not majored in biology as an undergrad, I still had to take a full year of general biology at the undergraduate level before medical schools would accept me. I had to take a class as a student, even though I'm professionally qualified to teach the same class. I think that's more unfair than your situation, because you're not qualified to teach all of the classes that you have to go back and take.

But although there were many groans, I did retake the full year in general bio. Why? Because that's what is required. Bio from a bio department, English from an English department, math from a math department. NOT physiology from a nursing department, statistics from the psychology department, physics from the engineering department. All of these departments may do a fine job of teaching subjects outside the field to their own students, but it just doesn't count.

So if you're serious about medicine, suck it up and do what's required. And try to stifle the vomit, because if you throw up on your professor they won't write a nice letter of recommendation. 😀

Personally, I'd suggest you drop the ambition to do MD/PhD and just pick one... either MD or PhD. In your situation I can't see how one or the other isn't a waste of time. If you're serious about clinical research, the PhD/PharmD combination is enough, and after finishing the PhD you can apply for NIH loan repayment if you have loans left over from PharmD. If you're not serious about clinical research then the PhD is a waste of time.
 
I've heard it will be harder, but I'm honestly baffled why. No pre-med has the same experience I have when it comes to medicine, period. Without a doubt. Sure, you can shadow all you want. I have to do a year of clinical rotations, including dosing, monitoring, interventions, P&T committees, etc. I have taken a first step into the world of medicine and I want to advance my knowledge to complete the patient care circle. If anything, this isn't a "changing of the mind", it's "progressing the depth of clinical knowledge and care". I'm going to move from the recommendation to the decisions, something I will have a lot of exposure with on a level like no other. The exposure of being a pharmacy student gave me situations that required medical analysis and professional judgement, and I gained confidence in answering and communicating with other healthcare professionals.

This makes no relation to why you are persuading MD/PhD. Possibly, is your incentive on MD/PhD from the fact that it's funded?
 
Sorry guys. I'm just frustrated. In the analogy of British currency, I'm afraid it's a bit different. See, I have all the normal criteria. I'm not using anything different, there is absolutely no difference in the classes. There were non-pharmacy people in the general chemistry, biology, physics classes that I took. They are just rejecting it SOLELY based on my major. I don't have dollar bills, I have coins, and they're a strictly paper-only store.

We've gotten off topic and I will stay on it; I will call the schools and post results here. I apologize once again for my frustration and, I would assume, immaturity.
 
Sorry guys. I'm just frustrated. In the analogy of British currency, I'm afraid it's a bit different.
...
We've gotten off topic and I will stay on it

Okay; I want to stay on topic too. But I'm confused by your posts, and I'd like to help you sort things out.

1) I apply to local university, transferring my current credits. They make up some excuse that whatever course isn't equivalent.
2) I take whatever classes they want me to take since I have all the pre-requisites already.
3) I graduate with a "BS".
4) Medical Schools see this and a lot of transfer credits, ask me where the credits for the new university came from.
5) They see Pharmacy school and reject it all.
6) I do not have a "valid" BS. 95% Pharm + 5% extra = still pharmacy!

I'm not sure we're on the same page when you talk about "transferring" credits. Since I'm not sure you and I are on the same page, it's also possible you're not on the same page as NYU, or any other school you might contact.

Here's why I think you're confused: You talk about "transferring" credits, and you say that medical schools will ask you where they "came from." But there's no asking involved, and they don't come from anywhere or go anywhere.

Just because School X decides to transfer your credits doesn't mean that you now get to claim that you took the class at School X. The term "transferring" applied to classes is pretty universal, but it's a bad word. It's not like transferring money from one account to another. If I move money from my checking to my savings account it disappears from checking and reappears in savings. But it doesn't work like that with transferring credits between schools. A better term would be to say that the new school "acknowledges" your old coursework.

The result is this: When you fill out your AMCAS application you will list every single class you took at the school where you actually took it.

You will also list the names of your degrees, the date, the major, and the schools that awarded them. But you are not asked to connect the courses with the school that gave you a degree. I do not believe that you will ever be given any chance to tell AMCAS what classes were "transferred" and which classes were not.




So, under what circumstances will you be allowed to "transfer" courses? You recently said:

There were non-pharmacy people in the general chemistry, biology, physics classes that I took. They are just rejecting it SOLELY based on my major.

But elsewhere you said that NYU wouldn't transfer your classes because:

their reason? Normally, credit is not given for courses taken in schools of dentistry, nursing, veterinary medicine, or pharmacy.

These two statements are contradictory! Either your chemistry, biology, and physics classes were general courses for all majors or they were specialty courses for your pharmacy major, and we need to determine what kind of courses you really took.

If the classes were taken from what I will call the "expected" department (i.e., a chemistry class from a chem department, English from an English department) at normal university, then most schools will accept these courses for transfer credit regardless of what your declared major was at the time. Maybe NYU is a rare exception, but if that's the case you just need to move on down the road.

However, if these courses were taking not from the "expected" department (i.e., taking an English class that is actually offered by your pharmacy department, or taking a statistics class that is actually offered by the sociology department), then I think NYU will probably prove to be fairly representative and not want to transfer them.

I know people are hesitant to identify themselves online, but it really might clear up some confusion if you would tell everyone here what school you went to for your PharmD.

In the meanwhile, it sounds to me like you took general courses while majoring in Pharmacy, but that NYU thinks you took these courses directly from a Pharmacy department. Again, maybe NYU is the cranky exception, but most schools will transfer general coursework from one university to another regardless of your major at the time of taking it.

:luck:
 
It true, all the money talk is fallacy, it's a false analogy and can't substitute for actual argument, but to be honest, there was plenty of good advice here that maybe it's time to break out some fallacies.

1) I apply to local university, transferring my current credits. They make up some excuse that whatever course isn't equivalent.
2) I take whatever classes they want me to take since I have all the pre-requisites already.
3) I graduate with a "BS".
4) Medical Schools see this and a lot of transfer credits, ask me where the credits for the new university came from.
5) They see Pharmacy school and reject it all.
6) I do not have a "valid" BS. 95% Pharm + 5% extra = still pharmacy!

The only way for me to avoid this is to REDO 4 years. Not going to do this, not only for monetary reasons, but are you serious? Another 4 years when I'm a PharmD? I want MD badly but this is not worth any aspect of time or money.

Isn't it possible that these schools make the admissions process difficult for people specifically in your position because they want to discourage people that are specifically in your position from applying???
 
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