Am I doomed for research? What makes MD/PhD worthwhile? And other questions.

[Mel Belle]

I've been getting mixed answers trying to ask about this in already established thread in the general pre-med forum. So my freshman year I couldn't get into any research for a number of reasons. One, the labs were apparently full. And as a naive freshman who has no parents or anything to help guide me, I just kinda went with it. Two, I'm an underclassman so I naturally get the bottom of the list. Three, I don't think my advisers were always aware that MD/PhD is my trajectory. I feel like they might have forgotten during some of our conversations. Understandable, I guess, since they see a lot of kids. But still. I can start research with my school's biochemist this spring... I have to wait because I need to take a couple courses before doing research with her, which I'll be doing in the fall. I'm trying to figure out if there's some way I can get experience this fall. What do you guys think of that? Does that make me not so competitive? I've also heard that basic science is not ideal if you want to get a publication, which would help getting into MD/PhD programs.

So because of this potential disadvantage... I thought I would revisit the reasons why I want to go MD/PhD. I like research. I worked as an assistant in a couple labs in high school and I want more. But you can still do research as an MD. What makes an MD/PhD dual degree more desirable?

I guess all this political bs in the lab I've been hearing about has dropped my confidence a little. I don't have that scientist/doctor parent advantage, I don't know people, etc. I also didn't get my start freshman year. At the same time... I really think surgery would be a good route to go. Could I be an academic surgeon with MD/PhD? I would assume the answer to that is yes, haha. Although to be honest I'm not 100% sure the definition of academic surgeon. But whether it's teaching people how to be surgeons or doing research to improve surgery (while doing it?), I would love to do that.

I guess my world wouldn't be over if I only made it into an MD program. I could still do research, surgery, teach, whatever. I guess I'm just getting a little lost in what my trajectory is. I know it's extremely difficult to get into MD/PhD programs, so a decision would be better sooner rather than later, you know?

Thanks for the help. I appreciate it. 🙂

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[volcomx]

You're a sophomore? You don't need to make a decision about MD vs MD/PHD now. Focus on getting high grades and doing research. That will keep the door open for later.

I also find it hard to believe that you couldn't get a position in a research lab. You don't need parents or whatever you mean by "connections." That sounds like an excuse. You also make it sound like "knowing people" is political bs. In the real world, who you know is everything...not just in science. But who you know isn't constrained to family ties or the situation you were born into. Make your own connections by proving your success...first in classes...then in undergraduate lab...then in life.

Here's an example....in science, collaborations between labs often spawn high-impact research. Those collaborations don't spontaneously happen.

 

[Mel Belle]

You're a sophomore? You don't need to make a decision about MD vs MD/PHD now. Focus on getting high grades and doing research. That will keep the door open for later.

I also find it hard to believe that you couldn't get a position in a research lab. You don't need parents or whatever you mean by "connections." That sounds like an excuse. You also make it sound like "knowing people" is political bs. In the real world, who you know is everything...not just in science. But who you know isn't constrained to family ties or the situation you were born into. Make your own connections by proving your success...first in classes...then in undergraduate lab...then in life.

Here's an example....in science, collaborations between labs often spawn high-impact research. Those collaborations don't spontaneously happen.

In the private message someone who sounded a lot like you sent me, he/she was talking about how he/she think I'm blaming things on my SES, something similar to what you said. No. I'm not. All I'm saying is that I didn't know. It can be hard to "just know" things if you don't have a source that guides you in the right direction. I can't ask a question if I've never heard about the topic. That's all I'm saying. If all I were doing was making excuses then why would I be looking for help and answers? I'd appreciate if you'd stop being rude and instead just answer the question I asked. When I kept asking my advisers about research they kept saying, "You can't get in now, you'll have to wait until next year." So how exactly does that not indicate that there are no spots? My school is extremely small and I'm willing to bet you've never even heard of it.

I also don't understand how it's not necessary to decide as early as possible MD/PhD vs MD. Why waste my time getting ready for (i.e. stressing over) and applying MD/PhD if I end up just wanting to do MD? All I'm looking for is an answer to that question. Sheesh.

 

[regeneration]

I think most of us have been in your shoes at some point.

Regarding research: No one is going to hand you a position. There's no point in finding excuses. If you've already had some experience in high school, then if anything, you're at an advantage. I suggest you take further initiative and start contacting labs with informed emails that describe your interests. A lot of your questions about publications/competitiveness, you'll find out won't matter too much at this point, as long as you commit yourself fully to your work once you join a lab -- just try to do something you're somewhat interested in.

For your Why MD/PhD questions: this is a tough question that will likely take you at least the next two years to figure out. There's a lot of information on this sub-forum already addressing your qualms, and also some good talks given by MD/PhD heads. Try to involve yourself with activities that will help you figure out how the dual degree would be useful.

 

[volcomx]

In the private message someone who sounded a lot like you sent me, he/she was talking about how he/she think I'm blaming things on my SES, something similar to what you said. No. I'm not. All I'm saying is that I didn't know. It can be hard to "just know" things if you don't have a source that guides you in the right direction. I can't ask a question if I've never heard about the topic. That's all I'm saying. If all I were doing was making excuses then why would I be looking for help and answers? I'd appreciate if you'd stop being rude and instead just answer the question I asked. When I kept asking my advisers about research they kept saying, "You can't get in now, you'll have to wait until next year." So how exactly does that not indicate that there are no spots? My school is extremely small and I'm willing to bet you've never even heard of it.

I also don't understand how it's not necessary to decide as early as possible MD/PhD vs MD. Why waste my time getting ready for (i.e. stressing over) and applying MD/PhD if I end up just wanting to do MD? All I'm looking for is an answer to that question. Sheesh.

I'm not the only one who thought you were making excuses (I didn't send you the PM), and someone else responded above similarly. It just so happens to come off that way, even if you didn't mean it. Writing clearly is critical. However, I still believe there are research positions out here if you are persistent. I know of people who complained that they couldn't find jobs, and one who even went on to say that a research department was on a hiring freeze. BS. I knew another person who had just landed a job in that same department. Labs...businesses...etc...are ALWAYS hiring...if you're what they're looking for.

I'll answer your MD vs MD/PHD question first, since it's an easy one. You won't know whether the MD path vs MD/PHD path is the right one for you until you do research for at least a year, maybe two. You need to be at the point where you believe that research is 100% what you want to be doing for the rest of your life...with a dash of clinical mixed in for research perspective. Even if you decide not to do the MD/PHD (like myself), research will only help your application. In my case, I think I'd rather be 80% clinical and 20% research...and probably not basic science research. I came to that conclusion after 3 semesters of research, a summer of research, and a year of full time research after graduation. Looking back, that time wasn't a waste.

Another thing - surgery and MD/PHD aren't your typical match. Sure, there are surgeons who do research, but they are rare, and even rarer are those with an MD/PHD. I think you should explore these career paths more. Spending that time now while you are an undergraduate will save you a lot of time in the future. You don't want to go down a long career path when when it's not leading to what you want.

 

[crunchyleaf]

Why don't you ask to meet some physician scientists working at hospitals/universities in your school or nearby? I talked to a MD PhD who performs neurosurgery and runs a basic science lab on neurological cancers /tumors, and it was quite interesting to hear from him about balancing the two roles.

 

[Mel Belle]

I'll answer your MD vs MD/PHD question first, since it's an easy one. You won't know whether the MD path vs MD/PHD path is the right one for you until you do research for at least a year, maybe two. You need to be at the point where you believe that research is 100% what you want to be doing for the rest of your life...with a dash of clinical mixed in for research perspective. Even if you decide not to do the MD/PHD (like myself), research will only help your application. In my case, I think I'd rather be 80% clinical and 20% research...and probably not basic science research. I came to that conclusion after 3 semesters of research, a summer of research, and a year of full time research after graduation. Looking back, that time wasn't a waste.

I've heard somewhere that 90% MD/PhDs go into research and 10% go into clinical work. Does that clinical not mean being more like a physician and/or surgeon? An explanation about that one would be appreciated.

Why don't you ask to meet some physician scientists working at hospitals/universities in your school or nearby? I talked to a MD PhD who performs neurosurgery and runs a basic science lab on neurological cancers /tumors, and it was quite interesting to hear from him about balancing the two roles.

Hm. I'm not sure my school has any, but that's a good idea. I'll try that, thanks!

 

[volcomx]

Those who went into majority clinical work probably realized somewhere in their 15 year training period that a career in research wasn't for them. Some MD/PHDs even drop both research and clinical work to focus more on administration. It's a long pathway and people's goals change. No one can be certain what they want in 20 years, but it's better to at least try and figure it out.

 

[Neuronix]

I've heard somewhere that 90% MD/PhDs go into research and 10% go into clinical work. Does that clinical not mean being more like a physician and/or surgeon? An explanation about that one would be appreciated.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9489970&postcount=25

The goal of MD/PhD and the funding of MD/PhD is directed towards producing majority researchers. When you interview and meet MD/PhDs who are doing basic or translational research at academic medical centers, you will only meet the success stories. That gives you a skewed view of reality.

I think among more junior graduates, the actual percentage who will end up performing majority research in their careers will be far less than 50% due to the overall lack of funding for science careers. But, that data does not yet exist. For a discussion of why, see the last link in this post.

Regarding surgery and MD/PhD:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=802957

Those who went into majority clinical work probably realized somewhere in their 15 year training period that a career in research wasn't for them. Some MD/PHDs even drop both research and clinical work to focus more on administration. It's a long pathway and people's goals change. No one can be certain what they want in 20 years, but it's better to at least try and figure it out.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=900721