Am I kidding myself with SMP?

[tenable2]

So I have a horrible UG GPA-- 2.54. I've done two semesters of postbac work at the local state university, taking Biochem(B), Cell Bio(A), Genetics (A+) for one semester and Advanced Human Genetics(A), Physio and anatomy(A), and a medical cultures course(A) and medical vocab (A). I've never taken the MCAT, but I plan to take the one in January, and I'm going to apply to some SMP. Is my postbac work enough to redeem me enough to get into the tough programs like BU MAMS, or GU SMP? I've sort of exhausted all the advanced undergrad courses at the local state university, so I didn't want to do any more. Any advice or insight would be awesome... I am so lost and clueless. Thanks!

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[Isoprop]

Is that ugrad GPA including post-bacc work or no?

depending on your MCAT score, you may be a good candidate for an SMP. Still, a sub 3.0 ugrad GPA will seriously challenge your chances of matriculating into med school.

I see two possible routes:

(1) continue post-bacc work - try retaking some of the basic science classes you did not do well in if you seriously exhausted all the upper-div bio classes you can take at your state college. there are other informal post-bacc programs that may also have a more variety of upper-div classes for you to take. the following year, apply for an SMP (Feb-Apr 2009) and apply early to med school June/July of the same year.

(2) take the SMP next year 2008 and finish the program. the following year (june 2009), apply to medical school.

option (1) has the advantage of raising your ugrad gpa and making you more competitive. but it sounds like you are close to burning out with post-bacc work and may be willing to take your game to the next level. either case, good luck

 

[Isoprop]

by the way, i can relate to the uphill feeling of a low ugrad gpa. there are people who have worse gpa's than you that get into medical school. it takes more time and more determination to get in.

ironically, my perception of low performance as a ugrad has changed over time. certainly, the experience is humbling. but succeeding after being at a disadvantage for so long reveals a lot about your character. the manure that is the mediocrity in your early ugrad experience can fertilize the determination as sturdy as trees and success as beautiful as flowers.


one other thing: give yourself a little room to make mistakes. it's hard to give yourself any slack because you feel this is your "time to prove yourself" and that screwing up will only demonstrate you aren't worthy of medical school admission. this pressure isnt necessary and probably counterproductive of your current achievements.

so to finally answer your question, no you aren't kidding yourself. with the right attitude, i think anybody, no matter how lackluster their previous academic record is, can mature into the scholar and doctor they want to be.

okay, i will stop talking out of my ass now. 😀

 

[tenable2]

Wow, Isoprop, thank you for your post.

That 2.54 undergrad does not include my postbac... I'm not sure how to compute my new undergrad with the postbac, but I'm guessing it might be around a 2.60 or so after 21 credits of all A's and one B.

I know I have to rock the MCAT, so I am thinking, dreaming, dating the MCAT 24/7 that it's completely taking over my life. I basically am giving myself a solid 3 months to really prepare and slay this beast so I'll have something to redeem myself.

But thank you. Plenty of people have told me I am a delusional fool chasing a pipe dream. Screw 'em.

 

[drizzt3117]

Wow, Isoprop, thank you for your post.

That 2.54 undergrad does not include my postbac... I'm not sure how to compute my new undergrad with the postbac, but I'm guessing it might be around a 2.60 or so after 21 credits of all A's and one B.

I know I have to rock the MCAT, so I am thinking, dreaming, dating the MCAT 24/7 that it's completely taking over my life. I basically am giving myself a solid 3 months to really prepare and slay this beast so I'll have something to redeem myself.

But thank you. Plenty of people have told me I am a delusional fool chasing a pipe dream. Screw 'em.

If you had a 2.54 with 120 credits, and got 3.85 in 21 units, you would have a 2.76 cumulative.

 

[tenable2]

I have a 2.54 with 129 credit hours for undergrad, without postbac.

Ugh... why I insisted on drinking and chasing boys when I should have been studying and preventing this misery in my future.... I'll never know.

 

[Isoprop]

haha no problem.

it's an experience a lot on this board can relate to (well, not specifically the "chasing boys" part).

and how come i never found any girls chasing me?? 😕

 

[LandSpeed]

haha no problem.

it's an experience a lot on this board can relate to (well, not specifically the "chasing boys" part).

and how come i never found any girls chasing me?? 😕

I don't know about you, but I was chased a few times.

 

[Instatewaiter]

So I have a horrible UG GPA-- 2.54. I've done two semesters of postbac work at the local state university, taking Biochem(B), Cell Bio(A), Genetics (A+) for one semester and Advanced Human Genetics(A), Physio and anatomy(A), and a medical cultures course(A) and medical vocab (A). I've never taken the MCAT, but I plan to take the one in January, and I'm going to apply to some SMP. Is my postbac work enough to redeem me enough to get into the tough programs like BU MAMS, or GU SMP? I've sort of exhausted all the advanced undergrad courses at the local state university, so I didn't want to do any more. Any advice or insight would be awesome... I am so lost and clueless. Thanks!

Your current cumulative GPA is 2.724. Calculated it by:
(Old GPA * # of credits + postbac GPA * # postback credits)/ (Postback credits + UG credits)

That is still a touch low for SMPs. I had a 2.8/2.9 from a pretty good university and got a 4.0 in my SMP (VCU/MCV cert program). While I did get into MCV, I was first waitlisted despite having the highest GPA in the program and a 33 MCAT to boot. This is because of my terrible Ugrad GPA

Some schools will screen out applicants w/ below a 3.0. It would be smart to try and get as close to the 3 mark as possible. If nothing else, take more courses next semester and apply to SMPs. Remember, SMPs do not affect your undergraduate GPA. They are calculated as a separate graduate GPA.

If you continue your trend of ~3.9 w/ 12 more UG credits you will have a 2.83.


Let me warn you though, SMPs are generally a last chance. If you do poorly in an SMP you will never get into medical school. I am not kidding about this. A low GPA and a poor SMP performance is a death sentence.

 

[tenable2]

Thank you, instatewaiter.

I feel like a criminal with this GPA. I know I should try to get to the magic 3.0 mark, but I think that would take 2 more years of full time undergrad work. And I've exhausted the undergrad science classes, so I'll pretty much be taking gut or liberal arts classes just as GPA filler, which I don't think is helpful for me.

My reasoning for taking time off and studying full time for the MCAT is that 1)if I get a good score, it shows I am not a *****
2)rocking the MCAT would be more tenable for me than pulling my GPA up, as far as my case goes.
3)if I can't get a good MCAT score, then I'm being unrealistic about my chances for US allopathic med school anyway. Might as well face the music, so to speak.

I sometimes wish I hadn't gone to college-- that would be more forgivable than going to college crappily, like I did. They're only grades and it doesn't define who I am, but it still sucks. 🙁

 

[sendwich]

hey OP,

I was in your shoes ~3 years ago. had a sub-3.0 gpa but i still wanted to consider medschool. I took a year's worth of upper division science courses at a local university full time (i think this was key), somehow got into the BU SMP program, really really rocked that, and got into medschool. I was waitlisted at BU but I think I had a really good chance getting in (there was some fluke last year but I was told by several people I was on the top top list.). the main drawback for me was my below-3.0 gpa. I think many (and I mean A LOT) of schools have a screening system where they don't even look at applicants with gpas below 3.0. I really rocked the the postbac and SMP but somehow got didnt get into the interview radar (I applied to a lot of schools too).

just a wind-about way of saying, it seems like you have a good turn around so far. if you want to seriously consider medschool, consider taking classes fulltime (i know it can get pretty expensive), ace them, and do a SMP. If you can, try to get your UG gpa as close to (or above, which is even better) 3.0.

pm me if you have more questions. 🙂

 

[drizzt3117]

Thank you, instatewaiter.

I feel like a criminal with this GPA. I know I should try to get to the magic 3.0 mark, but I think that would take 2 more years of full time undergrad work. And I've exhausted the undergrad science classes, so I'll pretty much be taking gut or liberal arts classes just as GPA filler, which I don't think is helpful for me.

My reasoning for taking time off and studying full time for the MCAT is that 1)if I get a good score, it shows I am not a *****
2)rocking the MCAT would be more tenable for me than pulling my GPA up, as far as my case goes.
3)if I can't get a good MCAT score, then I'm being unrealistic about my chances for US allopathic med school anyway. Might as well face the music, so to speak.

I sometimes wish I hadn't gone to college-- that would be more forgivable than going to college crappily, like I did. They're only grades and it doesn't define who I am, but it still sucks. 🙁

I think you should consider retaking the prereqs. It will certainly help you get into a DO program, because they use the newest grades for each course, and that material is what is going to be tested on the MCAT anyways, and it will improve your AMCAS GPA as well if you get As in them...

 

[tenable2]

Thank you Perrotfish, Drizz, Sendwich... This is so helpful to me; you have no idea.

I was really aiming for BU MAMS because it seemed the lowest GPAers ended up in allopathic med schools after the program... but I'm going to apply to high linkage programs as well.

I'd like to retake my prereqs, but I can't do a full courseload and study for the MCAT simultaneously(I tried previously and just couldn't do it). I'll get the MCAT out of the way and that way, I can take a full load again next semester and apply to SMP during or after that.

I guess it all comes down to the MCAT for me. Nothing to do but to slay the beast...

Thanks again, everyone.

 

[tenable2]

I don't know if this is flawed logic, but I don't feel comfortable getting a "certificate" when I could be be getting a Master's in that time, especially because most of the programs cost just as much... I'm sure others have used postbac certificates to get into med school successfully, but those were probably at least 3.0ers.

And looking through the linkage schools, the statement on their website is kind of vague, like on EVMS: "85% do go on to medical school." Ok, but is that MD, or DO? Is that only US medical school, or also include Carribean? I don't know if I can put a whole lot of stock into linkage programs, but most of them I can't apply to anyway, because I'm below the 3.0 mark.

I hope I can rock the SMP.... but at the end of the day, it's still a gamble. I may end up with a 4.0 in my SMP and still NOT get into an allopathic US med school. If that's the case, then at least I can use a Master's degree to get a better job, but I don't know how helpful a "certificate" will be to me, if I don't get into med school period, and I have to support myself and pay off that $50,000 loan I have to take out for that year.

Thoughts? 🙁

 

[tenable2]

Perrotfish-- thank you! 🙂

::runs off to study some more::

 

[Instatewaiter]

Thank you, instatewaiter.

My reasoning for taking time off and studying full time for the MCAT is that 1)if I get a good score, it shows I am not a *****
2)rocking the MCAT would be more tenable for me than pulling my GPA up, as far as my case goes.
3)if I can't get a good MCAT score, then I'm being unrealistic about my chances for US allopathic med school anyway. Might as well face the music, so to speak.(

Understand that even if you do get a good MCAT you will still be pigeon-holed. A low GPA + High MCAT makes you look like a smart slacker. Med school is hard but not that hard. It basically just takes a lot of work which is why GPA is taken more into account than MCAT.

Sure a good MCAT can help you overcome a crappy GPA but it wont ever fully make up for it.

High linkage programs that I know of are:

Tulane
Rosalind Franklin
EVMS
VCU (kinda)
LLU (accepts 1-3 people per year, consider convirting to their religion).

While VCU does allow you to basically start with a clean slate there really isnt a linkage perse. Their acceptance rate into medical school is around 15% so you have to do very well in the program to be admitted to MCV. That said, if you come in with a crappy GPA and do very well in the program, you will get into MCV despite the crappy GPA.

Sorry to get into semantics, just didnt want to mislead anyone.

A 'special masters' is not really a Masters degree and will not really help much with your career. Most programs won't even allow you claim that you have recieved a masters degree from their school. An SMP and Tulane and VCU's certificates are about equally useless in terms of finding employment. Exceptions include programs that offer the option to complete a second year/extra semester for a real masters in something-or-other if you're not accepted into medical school.

Stole the words out of my mouth

The MMS degree and even MS degrees from SMPs are not real masters of sciences. They are pretty much worthless.

Even the programs that have the option of the second year with research and give an MS (VCU offers it, not sure if tulane does) wont really help with finding a job. With the exception of perhaps genetics and a few select others where you can get a job with the masters (genetics councilor), masters of science themselves are pretty worthless.

If you wanted you could try for a a masters in something real (like Tulane's pharm program, or an MPH) and hope it gets you into medical school. That's a much longer shot with a sub-3.0 GPA, however.

Since you have a low GPA I would advise you to stay away from a program made up entirely of soft sciences (MPH, statistics, epidemiology) and stick with hard sciences (ie anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, anatomy etc). The hard sciences will help prove you 'belong' in med school.

Finally I wouldn't worry too much about where to apply until the MCATs are over with. A 2.72 and a 22 will make your decision a lot easier. Go study.

Again, good luck

yup, Perrot is right on track

 

[Isoprop]

Understand that even if you do get a good MCAT you will still be pigeon-holed. A low GPA + High MCAT makes you look like a smart slacker. Med school is hard but not that hard. It basically just takes a lot of work which is why GPA is taken more into account than MCAT.

Sure a good MCAT can help you overcome a crappy GPA but it wont ever fully make up for it.

nevertheless, a good mcat score is essential to get your application CONSIDERED by adcoms. take-home message: rock the mcat (easier said than done i know).

 

[tenable2]

thanks, isoprop & instatewaiter.

yeah, a few people have been telling me that I shouldn't take the MCAT until AFTER the SMP... but honestly, I don't even want to bother with the SMP if I can't break at least a 35 on the MCAT. There's really no other option.

this pressure to rock the mcat is excruciating.. but that's the price I pay for my ****y GPA. Man, I feel like that thing will haunt me in my nightmares forever... 🙁

 

[Perrotfish]

The only SMP that prepares you for the MCAT is Drexel's MSP program. Most of the other SMP programs won't even take you without an MCAT score. You need to take, and do well on, the MCAT before anything else.

That being said a 35, while a good goal, is not necessarily the lowest score you could get and still make this work. If you got over a 32 you would probably be a reasonable candidate for an SMP program.

 

[drizzt3117]

I am not sure it is a realistic goal to plan to score in the 95th percentile or above... SDN is full of ppl that banked on 35+ MCAT who scored in the 20s or below.

 

[Isoprop]

most smps will require mcat scores (24+). if they don't, they will need to see a GRE score. as mentioned above, there is/are exception(s).

like i said earlier, don't pressure yourself. ease into mcat studying and remember that the test sometimes can be random so don't be afraid of the possibility of taking it more than once. good luck, i'm rooting for ya!

 

[Perrotfish]

ease into mcat studying and remember that the test sometimes can be random so don't be afraid of the possibility of taking it more than once.

I'm not sure I agree with this, schools do look down on taking the MCAT more than once. The only good reason to take the MCAT more than once is if your score on the test is compltely at odds with your score on the practice test. Going in to the exam after getting a 25 on your last practice test, or not having taken a practice test, is just plain stupid.

 

[tenable2]

Thank you, Isoprop! 🙂🙂

Perrotfish, that's been my hunch all along, that schools don't look favorably on retakers unless there is a drastic increase in your score.... the statistics for retakers significantly improving their score are grim, so I don't plan on taking it until I *know* I am ready. I'm planning to retake it only if I get sick on test day. Thank you, Perrotfish, for reaffirming this.

Right now, I'm studying about 12 hours a day. My life consists of going to the gym(1 hr), sleeping, eating, and studying for the MCAT, and obsessing on this forum. I sort of study in my sleep, too, because I end up dreaming about orgo reactions and launching projectiles and torques. My social life is falling by the wayside, but that's not really important to me right now. It never killed anyone not to go out on Friday nights.

It might be unrealistic for me to work towards a 36, but I guess I just have to hope for the best and prepare for the worst... Really, I just want to be able to say I prepared as much as I could and tried my hardest. And if that isn't good enough-- well, I guess med school won't be in the cards for me. Before this realization would have made me near suicidal, but the truth is, some people just aren't meant to go be doctors. I can deal with it if I am one of them.

At any rate, thanks, guys. I'm off to go study some more...

 

[Isoprop]

I'm not sure I agree with this, schools do look down on taking the MCAT more than once. The only good reason to take the MCAT more than once is if your score on the test is compltely at odds with your score on the practice test. Going in to the exam after getting a 25 on your last practice test, or not having taken a practice test, is just plain stupid.

yes i do agree that taking the mcat once is ideal. but my point is that pressuring yourself to score above 34 is counterproductive from my experience. and there are plenty of stories of people scoring 36-39 on the aamc's and scoring <30 on the real thing (and some even score in the forties, but that's rare). it's easy to put all this pressure on yourself because you feel behind and you want to prove yourself to adcoms.

the adage that people who go the smp route often forget: slow and steady wins the race.