AMSA-Do you know what you are supporting?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

JohnHolmes

Large Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2003
Messages
3,207
Reaction score
4
http://www.amsa.org/legislativecenter/

AMSA's top legislative priority is defeating the gay marriage amendment.

Regardless of your feelings on this issue, the fact that AMSA has placed it paramont to all issues concerning medical students makes me wonder about their priorities. 👎

Also, the organization is partisan-very partisan. While the AMA does not endorse a presidential candidate, AMSA seems to. They have links (not ads, but bonda fide LINKS) on their page to Democratic fundraising causes. They advocate for a single payor system.

http://www.amsa.org/election2004/

AMSA isn't concerned with the practice of medicine so much as it is pushing a partisan ideology. 👎
 
Umm I dont know about you two but I am against the gay marriege amendment. Why cant two people who are committed to one another get married? Ohh, because God said so...please. Worry about yourself, not others.

Also, DONT YOU KNOW YOU ARE ENTERING THE MOST LIBERAL OF ALL PROFESSIONS?
 
W222 said:
Umm I dont know about you two but I am against the gay marriege amendment. Why cant two people who are committed to one another get married? Ohh, because God said so...please. Worry about yourself, not others.

Also, DONT YOU KNOW YOU ARE ENTERING THE MOST LIBERAL OF ALL PROFESSIONS?


Proof?

I can think of a number of professions that are more liberal: Journalist, for one.

Liberal arts professor
 
W222 said:
Umm I dont know about you two but I am against the gay marriege amendment. Why cant two people who are committed to one another get married? Ohh, because God said so...please. Worry about yourself, not others.

Also, DONT YOU KNOW YOU ARE ENTERING THE MOST LIBERAL OF ALL PROFESSIONS?


I'm not sure I would consider medicine the "most liberal of all proessions"??



.
 
Why does AMSA even have a position on the amendment?





.
 
W222 said:
Umm I dont know about you two but I am against the gay marriege amendment. Why cant two people who are committed to one another get married? Ohh, because God said so...please. Worry about yourself, not others.

Also, DONT YOU KNOW YOU ARE ENTERING THE MOST LIBERAL OF ALL PROFESSIONS?


I have heard/read from numerous sources that Doctors are an extremely politically conservative bunch. Don't know where your liberal comment comes from.
 
Why does the American Academy of Pediatrics take a stance on gay adoption and offer their approval? Answer is because educated people tend to leave their prejudice nature behind them and try to effect change in society.
 
W222 said:
Why does the American Academy of Pediatrics take a stance on gay adoption and offer their approval? Answer is because educated people tend to leave their prejudice nature behind them and try to effect change in society.


Even if true (and you might try posting links to back up your bS), thats a small subgroup of the entire population of physicians in the US. Not all of them, or enough to support your claim.
 
I'm against the amendment although I support BUSH on many other things (Iraq for one!). But again, why does AMSA even have a position on this?




.
 
FLIGHTERDOC You have to be kidding me about the liberal nature of the media. That is simply Republican BS (AND I aint no democrat either). Fox News and that crowd are some of the biggest right-wingers ever.
 
JohnHolmes said:
The AMA has a more influential student group, the MSS, the Medical Student Section. The AMA is non-partisan and takes positions only on issues concerning the practice of medicine.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/14.html

👍


This is true. However, med students need groups like the AMSA to represent student only interests. Case in point, the 80 hour work rules. AMA tries very hard to stay out of that one, since many students and residents in the AMA support it, and many of the old docs really do not. But when push comes to shove, the AMA would support the old docs. Why? They pay the bills.

I am in agreement with some of the earlier posters. Why does this organization even have a position on this issue? They should be representing the interests of medical students and the issues that we face. Gay marriage/adoption should not be in the scope of what the AMSA does.

I think that it lousy that we don't have a good organization that can represent medical students and residents on a national level.
 
flighterdoc said:
Proof?

I can think of a number of professions that are more liberal: Journalist, for one.

Liberal arts professor


I disagree on journalist...maybe if you're an editorial writer for the nytimes, but not if you work for the fox news network or write editorials for the wsj.
 
W222 said:
Umm I dont know about you two but I am against the gay marriege amendment. Why cant two people who are committed to one another get married? Ohh, because God said so...please. Worry about yourself, not others.

Also, DONT YOU KNOW YOU ARE ENTERING THE MOST LIBERAL OF ALL PROFESSIONS?


Correction: Medical students are very liberal until they actually get out into the real world and see what it's really like to practice medicine. A shift to more conservative views usually follows.
 
finnpipette said:
I disagree on journalist...maybe if you're an editorial writer for the nytimes, but not if you work for the fox news network or write editorials for the wsj.

There have been some published studies of this, done by the Pew Foundation (a particularly liberal organization, btw). They found that the VAST majority of journalists interviewed self-identified themselves as liberals.

And, lets look at simple numbers: CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, al-Reuters, etc vs. Fox?

Or, of the major newspapers in the country: NY Times, WaPo, LA Times, Chicago Sun-Times, Boston Globe, CSM, vs. Washington Times (maybe) and the editorial page of the Wall St Journal?
 
flighterdoc said:
Proof?

I can think of a number of professions that are more liberal: Journalist, for one.

Liberal arts professor

The media is as liberal as the conservative cooperations that own them. Of course, you have your share of liberal jounalists and your share of conservative journalists, but ultimately, the decision of what gets printed and broadcasted lie in the hands of the conservative cooperations.
 
JBJ said:
Why does this organization even have a position on this issue? They should be representing the interests of medical students and the issues that we face. Gay marriage/adoption should not be in the scope of what the AMSA does.QUOTE]

But isn't gay marriage/adoption an issue that concerns med students (as well as every other group in society)??? There are LGBT folks everywhere, including medical schools. And when you throw in the number of friends and family that are in the LGBT community, we're talking about a pretty big percentage (>50%). Are you telling me that an amendment that intentionally violates the civil liberty of such a huge population has nothing to do with medical students?

I for one am glad that AMSA took a position on this issue and take some leadership. If you think the political/social climate has nothing to do with the study of medicine, you better check again...
 
I know of several people in medical school who are going to have serious personal dilemmas when faced with gay people and those with alcohol/drug abuse problems. I cant believe med schools let in those who have lived in a "utopia" their entire lives and now have to face people they dont want to know exist.
 
babyface said:
JBJ said:
Why does this organization even have a position on this issue? They should be representing the interests of medical students and the issues that we face. Gay marriage/adoption should not be in the scope of what the AMSA does.QUOTE]

But isn't gay marriage/adoption an issue that concerns med students (as well as every other group in society)??? There are LGBT folks everywhere, including medical schools. And when you throw in the number of friends and family that are in the LGBT community, we're talking about a pretty big percentage (>50%).

Even more directly related to your career as a future physician, you will have gay patients, and their right to/prohibition from marrying will effect who has the right to make medical decisions for them, whether or not they can officially adopt their child, who is the "next of kin", etc. The reason AMSA takes a stand, and the reason you should care is because these laws will have a direct effect on the health of your future patients.
 
Exactly, Pwfrlgrl There is one instance I can think of where a dying patient's life-partner was denied access because he wasn't family. That is insane.
 
AMSA is a partisan, socialist piece of s***.
 
Tristero said:
AMSA is a partisan, socialist piece of s***.


Sorry to break it to you man, but ALL advocacy groups ARE partisan! The Sierra Club, Habitat for Humanity, AMSA, AMA, you name it -- they are all partisan. The only way to take the political partisanship out of AMSA is for it to only advocate for issues that are so widely accepted and common sensed that they transcend political divides. But that would also defeat the entire purpose of an advocacy group. So please, hate AMSA if you want because it has political views that are different from yours, but don't hate it because it is partisan.
 
Advocacy groups are not partisan. They profess the interests of a particular sub group. The gay marriage amendment has nothing to do with medicine, it is a partisan issue. Why has the AMA not taken a stance on such issues? Because they are not partisan, and only concern themselves with issues that affect medicine. They base their stance on issues (hopefully) on the interests of physicians, regardless of party affiliation. So please, believe what you want about advocacy groups, but don't lecture me on the meaning of "partisan".

Oh, many of AMSA's political views are in line with mine (including their stance on the gay marriage amendment), but that doesn't change what they are (see earlier post).
 
W222 said:
http://www.siecus.org/policy/PUpdates/arch02/arch020006.html


Here ya go. Not the only link but the one I found the quickest.

Man, everyone is for AA but people seem to get their panties in a bunch if a same sex-couple wants to get married.

You are smoking weed. This is a well-reasoned review of the literature where they don't personally endorse a ideology, rather offer sum up a body of scientific evidence saying that there are no detrimental effects, therefore, it should be allowed on THOSE grounds. That is quite a bit different.
 
W222 said:
I know of several people in medical school who are going to have serious personal dilemmas when faced with gay people and those with alcohol/drug abuse problems. I cant believe med schools let in those who have lived in a "utopia" their entire lives and now have to face people they dont want to know exist.

Humility in medicine and multiculturalism is an educational need of medical schools, this is quite a bit different from "contacting your senator to defeat this horrific constitutional amendment" being a top legislative priority.
 
JohnHolmes said:
Humility in medicine and multiculturalism is an educational need of medical schools, this is quite a bit different from "contacting your senator to defeat this horrific constitutional amendment" being a top legislative priority.
Agreed. You can make the argument that medicine is affected by many different issues--drug abuse, gay marriage/adoption, tax cuts, medicare reimbersements, kids killing kids with illegal guns, abortion, war, etc.

I suppose that I don't have a really problem with a medical student organization taking a stand on any of these issues. I just wish that an organization called the American Medical Students Association would try to concentrate on issues directly related to us and our immediate future. Things like the Higher Education Act, student debt, resident work hours, USMLE, and the like. We have no national student orgazation that really represents us. The AMA-MSS does on some issues, but it is really focused on current physicians and issues affecting them. Sometimes these student issues are in direct conflict with physicians currently in the field.
 
flighterdoc said:
There have been some published studies of this, done by the Pew Foundation (a particularly liberal organization, btw). They found that the VAST majority of journalists interviewed self-identified themselves as liberals.

And, lets look at simple numbers: CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, al-Reuters, etc vs. Fox?

Or, of the major newspapers in the country: NY Times, WaPo, LA Times, Chicago Sun-Times, Boston Globe, CSM, vs. Washington Times (maybe) and the editorial page of the Wall St Journal?

Washington Times "maybe?" When was the last time you picked up that paper?

I agree with a lot of the previous posters that the claim that the media is slanted liberally is unfounded and created by the very people who push a radical conservative agenda. There have been some leaked internal fox memos to support this view, although I'm not sure if that is the true genesis of the idea.

It's finally falling out of fashion though, as the doublespeak from organizations like Fox becomes increasingly absurd.

A good test is to give someone a New York Times, Boston Globe and ask him/her to judge its bias. Then do that for the Washington Times, Fox News, Pittsburgh Herald Tribune, Boston Herald and compare.


And for AMSA, that seems totally out of place. There are plenty of opportunites to form organizations with more clear focuses so that you don't end up duping your members. Poor, i think.
 
JBJ said:
Agreed. You can make the argument that medicine is affected by many different issues--drug abuse, gay marriage/adoption, tax cuts, medicare reimbersements, kids killing kids with illegal guns, abortion, war, etc.

I suppose that I don't have a really problem with a medical student organization taking a stand on any of these issues. I just wish that an organization called the American Medical Students Association would try to concentrate on issues directly related to us and our immediate future. Things like the Higher Education Act, student debt, resident work hours, USMLE, and the like. We have no national student orgazation that really represents us. The AMA-MSS does on some issues, but it is really focused on current physicians and issues affecting them. Sometimes these student issues are in direct conflict with physicians currently in the field.

hmm, I think this is a good point. I wouldn't assume that AMSA doesn't focus on these other issues (wasn't AMSA responsible for the 80 hour residency work week?). I assumed that the reason the gay marriage amendment was "top" priority was simply because it was being voted on within a few days in congress. but it's a good point that there are the issues that directly impact med students and those that indirectly impact them (through their patients). perhaps AMSA should make a "students-for-patient-advocacy" branch that deals with those issues instead of trying to tackle everything at once?
 
babyface said:
The media is as liberal as the conservative cooperations that own them. Of course, you have your share of liberal jounalists and your share of conservative journalists, but ultimately, the decision of what gets printed and broadcasted lie in the hands of the conservative cooperations.


While corporations are usually concerned with the bottom line, do you really think that TimeWarner, MSNBC, or CNN are run by conservatives? They're delivering, and thats all the stockholders care about.

If you think that Ted Turner (who started CNN) or Bill Gates (MSNBC) are conservative, I have a really nice bridge to sell you - Cheap!
 
kikkoman said:
Washington Times "maybe?" When was the last time you picked up that paper?

I agree with a lot of the previous posters that the claim that the media is slanted liberally is unfounded and created by the very people who push a radical conservative agenda. There have been some leaked internal fox memos to support this view, although I'm not sure if that is the true genesis of the idea.

It's finally falling out of fashion though, as the doublespeak from organizations like Fox becomes increasingly absurd.

A good test is to give someone a New York Times, Boston Globe and ask him/her to judge its bias. Then do that for the Washington Times, Fox News, Pittsburgh Herald Tribune, Boston Herald and compare.


And for AMSA, that seems totally out of place. There are plenty of opportunites to form organizations with more clear focuses so that you don't end up duping your members. Poor, i think.


Maybe in the sense of being a major US paper, not in it's center-right perspective.

As far as the rest of your assertions, I'll provide some hard facts, instead of your "big lie" assertions - from liberal sources, yet.

The Pew polling organization is very liberal itself. It's interesting to see NPR try to spin the validity of the poll away.

From National Peoples Radio: http://www.npr.org/features/columns/column.php?wfId=1919999&columnId=2781901

NPR Ombudsman
By Jeffrey A. Dvorkin

Pew Study: Journalists and Liberal Bias

Web Extra June 2, 2004 -- A recent study by the Pew Center for the Public and the Press looked at the state of journalism, journalists and journalistic attitudes.

Details of the study can be found at the Pew Web site (See link in Web Resources below). It surveyed 547 journalists in broadcasting and print. It also looks at attitudes comparing journalists who work in local newsrooms and those who work for national media. The survey replicated a similar study done in 1995.

More Pessimistic

Overall, the poll shows that journalists are more pessimistic than ever about the state of the profession. Their confidence in their management is low and their fears are high about the commercial pressures on journalism.

This is a study that is bound to have some serious consequences for American journalism in large measure because of one aspect of the poll: the political leanings of the journalists who responded to the survey.

Confirmation for Conservatives

It found that a majority of American journalists say they are liberals. Not surprisingly this has been grist for conservatives because it confirms the impression that journalists are overwhelmingly liberal compared to the public in general.

This is only a small portion of the study. But it is likely to follow news organizations around for the rest of the political year like Marley's ghost. For some, Bush's rise or fall in November will be inextricably linked to this poll.

And that leads to some serious concerns about the Pew poll as well.

First, the poll never asks exactly how personal political attitudes impact on the ability of journalists to do their job. In that sense, I think the poll may be a disservice. It implies -- but never explains how or if bias has an impact on journalism. The poll simply assumes -- as conservatives constantly point out -- that bias makes its way into the journalism.

What About Management Politics?

More importantly in my opinion, the poll never asks about the political leanings of the media owners, publishers and upper management of news organizations. It is arguable that their politics are more influential than their employees in choosing the direction of a news organization.

This poll seems to me to be an example of how to keep journalists on the defensive in an election year. That may not have been the intention of whoever commissioned this study. But it certainly will be an outcome -- unintended or otherwise.

So if there is tough reporting around the Bush campaign, critics will say it must be because of the inherent liberal bias as cited in the Pew poll. If the media is tough on the Kerry campaign it may be viewed as an overcompensation to show that the media isn't as liberal as the Pew poll indicated.

Creeping Commercialism

The poll also points out the increasing concerns of journalists who see their ability to do their jobs in a professional way constantly undermined by encroaching commercialism.

This is a concern for all journalists, even for NPR -- a not-for-profit media outlet.

For NPR, the sense of creeping commercialism remains an important concern for many listeners who resent the tone and the origins of some of the underwriting messages on public radio. Underwriting messages on NPR are as they have always been -- a maximum of two minutes per hour. However listeners increasingly say they perceive the messages to be more about commercial ventures than before.

Inside NPR, some nervous journalists worry that competitive pressures may inadvertently dull the harder edge of journalistic inquiry.

'Muzzling Sheep'

I hope that Pew -- a highly respected polling organization -- would try again. A better poll would be to look more deeply into how journalistic checks and balances work: Do editors find that they are dealing with bias more than they used to? Do reporters and editors sense more or less pressure to deal with the campaigns in a certain way than they did in 2000? How does commercialism impact on the quality of reporting? Where does that pressure come from? Self-censorship or managerial fiat? Do readers, viewers and listeners sense a reticence on the part of journalists to go after the story in a post-Sept. 11 political environment? Are our European colleagues correct when they say that the American media has been cowed? (A British politician recently remarked that it wasn't necessary to muzzle Fleet Street: "You don't have to muzzle sheep.")

There is much that can be pointed to as examples of inherent bias in the media -- including NPR.

The media -- as a class -- tends to be remarkably homogeneous. As an NPR editor pointed out to me recently, "How many of our journalists have ever operated a business?" The poll indirectly points to the need for more diversity in our newsrooms -- both intellectual and cultural.

These are important questions that Pew could have asked, but didn't. My concern is whether this poll may create an environment of "prior restraint" by inhibiting journalists from asking the tougher questions.

The Adversarial Role of the Media

This poll may have been done correctly, but in this one aspect -- questioning the professionalism of journalists -- the result will be a disservice to American journalists and journalism. In order to avoid the "liberal bias" accusation, some journalists might feel there is safety in pack journalism and that is likely to have a chilling effect on tough, independent journalism.

The media and its management have an obligation to maintain a skeptical and adversarial role to whatever party is in power. This poll could discourage that by implying that journalists will always let their personal politics trump their professional obligations.

Listeners can contact me at 202-513-3245 or at [email protected].

Jeffrey Dvorkin

NPR Ombudsman

Here is the NYTimes own "ombudsman" with a story from last week:

Is The New York Times a Liberal Newspaper?
By DANIEL OKRENT


Published: July 25, 2004

OF course it is.


The fattest file on my hard drive is jammed with letters from the disappointed, the dismayed and the irate who find in this newspaper a liberal bias that infects not just political coverage but a range of issues from abortion to zoology to the appointment of an admitted Democrat to be its watchdog. (That would be me.) By contrast, readers who attack The Times from the left - and there are plenty - generally confine their complaints to the paper's coverage of electoral politics and foreign policy. \

Read the rest of this story at http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/25/weekinreview/25bott.html

This article specifically addresses the non-news aspects of Times coverage, but as Okrent says
. But their editors must also expect that some readers will think: "This does not represent me or my interests. In fact, it represents my enemy." So is it any wonder that the offended or befuddled reader might consider everything else in the paper - including, say, campaign coverage - suspicious as well?​

and later

On a topic that has produced one of the defining debates of our time, Times editors have failed to provide the three-dimensional perspective balanced journalism requires. This has not occurred because of management fiat, but because getting outside one's own value system takes a great deal of self-questioning. Six years ago, the ownership of this sophisticated New York institution decided to make it a truly national paper. Today, only 50 percent of The Times's readership resides in metropolitan New York, but the paper's heart, mind and habits remain embedded here. You can take the paper out of the city, but without an effort to take the city and all its attendant provocations, experiments and attitudes out of the paper, readers with a different worldview will find The Times an alien beast.
 
pwrpfgrl said:
Even more directly related to your career as a future physician, you will have gay patients, and their right to/prohibition from marrying will effect who has the right to make medical decisions for them, whether or not they can officially adopt their child, who is the "next of kin", etc. The reason AMSA takes a stand, and the reason you should care is because these laws will have a direct effect on the health of your future patients.

Give me a break. That is the most hand-raising explanation proffered yet.
 
babyface said:
The only way to take the political partisanship out of AMSA is for it to only advocate for issues that are so widely accepted and common sensed that they transcend political divides. But that would also defeat the entire purpose of an advocacy group.

:idea: :idea:

babyface...that IS the purpose of an advocacy group.
 
AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION HOUSE OF DELEGATES


Resolution: 204
(A-04)

Introduced by: Medical Student Section

Subject: Partner Co-Adoption

Referred to: Reference Committee B
(Michael J. Fischer, MD, Chair)



Whereas, Having two fully sanctioned and legally defined parents promotes a safe and nurturing environment for children, including psychological and legal security; and

Whereas, Children born or adopted into families headed by partners who are of the same sex usually have only one biologic or adoptive legal parent; and

Whereas, The legislative protection afforded to children of parents in homosexual relationships varies from state to state, with some states enacting or considering legislation sanctioning co-parent or second parent adoption by partners of the same sex, several states declining to consider legislation, and at least one state altogether banning adoption by the second parent; and

Whereas, Co-parent or second parent adoption guarantees that the second parent?s custody rights and responsibilities are protected if the first parent dies or becomes incapacitated; and

Whereas, Co-parent or second parent adoption ensures the child?s eligibility for health benefits from both parents and establishes the requirement for child support from both parents in the event of the parents? separation; and

Whereas, Co-parent or second parent adoption establishes legal grounds to provide consent for medical care and to make health care decisions on behalf of the child and guarantees visitation rights if the child becomes hospitalized; and

Whereas, The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychiatric Association have each issued statements supporting initiatives which allow same-sex couples to adopt and co-parent children; therefore be it

RESOLVED, That our American Medical Association support legislative and other efforts to allow the adoption of a child by the same-sex partner, or opposite sex non-married partner, who functions as a second parent or co-parent to that child. (New HOD Policy)
 
W222 said:
Exactly, Pwfrlgrl There is one instance I can think of where a dying patient's life-partner was denied access because he wasn't family. That is insane.
\

Thats truly a shame. It was also unnecessary, they could have made arrangements through a durable power of attorney. Or, some sort of domestic partnership laws SHOULD be passed. But, it's not necessary to redefine marriage.
 
Dr. Dix said:
AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION HOUSE OF DELEGATES


Whereas, The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychiatric Association have each issued statements supporting initiatives which allow same-sex couples to adopt and co-parent children; therefore be it

RESOLVED, That our American Medical Association support legislative and other efforts to allow the adoption of a child by the same-sex partner, or opposite sex non-married partner, who functions as a second parent or co-parent to that child. (New HOD Policy)

Issues taken by pediatric groups who examined studies on pediatric physical and mental health and found no disparities between those adopted by gay and non gay parents supports adoption rights on these grounds.

This is based in science and reasoning. It is still quite a bit different than setting your #1 legislative priority as defeating a gay marriage amendment. You see the substantial difference, here, right ....

Don't get me wrong, I am not against gay marriage, I am for it personally and believe the aggregate decision should be left to the population of each state. I am just very concerned that the AMSA is abusive of its members by pushing for these initiatives without adequately identifying itself, and mischaracterizing itself as a medical student advocacy group.
 
JohnHolmes said:
http://www.amsa.org/legislativecenter/

AMSA's top legislative priority is defeating the gay marriage amendment.

Regardless of your feelings on this issue, the fact that AMSA has placed it paramont to all issues concerning medical students makes me wonder about their priorities. 👎

Also, the organization is partisan-very partisan. While the AMA does not endorse a presidential candidate, AMSA seems to. They have links (not ads, but bonda fide LINKS) on their page to Democratic fundraising causes. They advocate for a single payor system.

http://www.amsa.org/election2004/

AMSA isn't concerned with the practice of medicine so much as it is pushing a partisan ideology. 👎

Followed by:

Sambo said:
Correction: Medical students are very liberal until they actually get out into the real world and see what it's really like to practice medicine. A shift to more conservative views usually follows.

Topics such as these make me remember this quote:

"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."
-Winston Churchill

It makes sense that AMSA would have a liberal swing due to the youth factor, however, it makes me see that the leadership in this group may seem to lack hindsight. Socialization of medicine and the single payor system is contrary to many of the values that physicians have. A majority of the physicians who I know and have conferred with ARE fiscally conservative and feel as if they need to consistently vote republican because if many democrats got their ways, we would be in a socialized system (i.e. Hilary Clinton).

Removing PERSONAL interest (not private interest) from medicine essentially destroys motivation a physician may have to go above and beyond the call of duty. Altruistic behavior is ESSENTIAL to practice good medicine and those whose personal interest is mainly for altruistic reasons, they are highly valued. A surgeon with 10+ years of advanced education, however, being compensated the same amount as a clothing department manager who may or may not have nearly as much education is appalling. Personal interest has been apart of the US democratic system since the inception. Just research George Washington's push to the west in Ohio.

Let me put it this way. I know that picking John Edwards as a VP, John Kerry has lost the votes of many doctors in this nation who could not, in their good conscious, put a medical malpractice attorney in the white house.

If you were listening to the Diane Rehm show on Wed July 7, you would have read an e-mail that I sent to her show talking about the effect of John Edwards upon the healthcare vote. The panelists did dance around this topic, howerver. Many of you have discussed the liberal bias of the media, and I do not disagree... however, we are a country where ALL voices can be heard. It may take some work, but it is possible.

Cheers,
-Mike
 
Mike,

I couldn't agree with you more on everything you said.
 
I feel inadequate responding to JohnHomes, because his answers fit perfectly.

Regarding AMA-MSS's policies. . . I have spoken with several senior leaders of
AMA in Washington, and they agree with me. Medical students, through the AMA, should focus several key issues. In my opinion these issues should be of direct interest to medical students. Let's use other organizations to help us support our other causes.
 
JohnHolmes said:
http://www.amsa.org/legislativecenter/

AMSA's top legislative priority is defeating the gay marriage amendment.

Regardless of your feelings on this issue, the fact that AMSA has placed it paramont to all issues concerning medical students makes me wonder about their priorities. 👎

Also, the organization is partisan-very partisan. While the AMA does not endorse a presidential candidate, AMSA seems to. They have links (not ads, but bonda fide LINKS) on their page to Democratic fundraising causes. They advocate for a single payor system.

http://www.amsa.org/election2004/

AMSA isn't concerned with the practice of medicine so much as it is pushing a partisan ideology. 👎


I agree with you. AMSA is often caught up in aimless issues, for our/its purposes at least. There's no terra ferma in sight for them. I like the AMA much better, and their student section has the same potential to effect change as AMSA. So, in terms of MSS leadership, do you know if one can be successful applying as a first year for a committee position. I would really like to be part of their legislative efforts.
 
National committee application deadlines have passed for 2004-2005. Get involved with your local section and apply next year.
 
I thought duplicate posts were not allowed?
 
Well, as a medical student you have the option of running for leadership positions and determining the organization's direction instead of complaining. I am a member of AMSA and I don't really have a problem with them...the free Netter deal was pretty sweet too IMHO.
 
FYSerious concern

Beware of creeping Fascism.

It is a sad day when it becomes clear that people in the medical profession (doctors, nurses and medics) did not blow whistles in Abu Ghraib on torture of prisoners.

Prayers

Dan

------ Forwarded Message
From: [email protected] (Tina Staik)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:44:01 +0200
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Another Distinct Parallel between Nazi Germany and today's Neo-Cons: Medical Doctors and Torture

Doctors and Torture
By Robert Jay Lifton, M.D.
The New England Journal of Medicine Volume 351:415-416 July 29, 2004 Number 5
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/5/415

Thursday 29 July 2004

We know that medical personnel have failed to report to higher authorities wounds that were clearly caused by torture and that they have neglected to take steps to interrupt this torture. In addition, they have turned over prisoners' medical records to interrogators who could use them to exploit the prisoners' weaknesses or vulnerabilities. We have not yet learned the extent of medical involvement in delaying and possibly falsifying the death certificates of prisoners who have been killed by torturers.

A May 22 article on Abu Ghraib in the New York Times states that "much of the evidence of abuse at the prison came from medical documents" and that records and statements "showed doctors and medics reporting to the area of the prison where the abuse occurred several times to stitch wounds, tend to collapsed prisoners or see patients with bruised or reddened genitals." 1 According to the article, two doctors who gave a painkiller to a prisoner for a dislocated shoulder and sent him to an outside hospital recognized that the injury was caused by his arms being handcuffed and held over his head for "a long period," but they did not report any suspicions of abuse. A staff sergeant medic who had seen the prisoner in that position later told investigators that he had instructed a military policeman to free the man but that he did not do so. A nurse, when called to attend to a prisoner who was having a panic attack, saw naked Iraqis in a human pyramid with sandbags over their heads but did not report it until an investigation was held several months later.

A June 10 article in the Washington Post tells of a long-standing policy at the Guant?namo Bay facility whereby military interrogators were given access to the medical records of individual prisoners. 2 The policy was maintained despite complaints by the Red Cross that such records "are being used by interrogators to gain information in developing an interrogation plan." A civilian psychiatrist who was part of a medical review team was "disturbed" about not having been told about the practice and said that it would give interrogators "tremendous power" over prisoners.

Other reports, though sketchier, suggest that the death certificates of prisoners who might have been killed by various forms of mistreatment have not only been delayed but may have camouflaged the fatal abuse by attributing deaths to conditions such as cardiovascular disease. 3

Various medical protocols - notably, the World Medical Association Declaration of Tokyo in 1975 - prohibit all three of these forms of medical complicity in torture. Moreover, the Hippocratic Oath declares, "I will use treatment to help the sick according to my ability and judgment, but never with a view to injury and wrongdoing."

To be a military physician is to be subject to potential moral conflict between commitment to the healing of individual people, on the one hand, and responsibility to the military hierarchy and the command structure, on the other. I experienced that conflict myself as an Air Force psychiatrist assigned to Japan and Korea some decades ago: I was required to decide whether to send psychologically disturbed men back to the United States, where they could best receive treatment, or to return them to their units, where they could best serve combat needs. There were, of course, other factors, such as a soldier's pride in not letting his buddies down, but for physicians this basic conflict remained.

American doctors at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere have undoubtedly been aware of their medical responsibility to document injuries and raise questions about their possible source in abuse. But those doctors and other medical personnel were part of a command structure that permitted, encouraged, and sometimes orchestrated torture to a degree that it became the norm - with which they were expected to comply - in the immediate prison environment.

The doctors thus brought a medical component to what I call an "atrocity-producing situation" - one so structured, psychologically and militarily, that ordinary people can readily engage in atrocities. Even without directly participating in the abuse, doctors may have become socialized to an environment of torture and by virtue of their medical authority helped sustain it. In studying various forms of medical abuse, I have found that the participation of doctors can confer an aura of legitimacy and can even create an illusion of therapy and healing.

The Nazis provided the most extreme example of doctors' becoming socialized to atrocity. 4 In addition to cruel medical experiments, many Nazi doctors, as part of military units, were directly involved in killing. To reach that point, they underwent a sequence of socialization: first to the medical profession, always a self-protective guild; then to the military, where they adapted to the requirements of command; and finally to camps such as Auschwitz, where adaptation included assuming leadership roles in the existing death factory. The great majority of these doctors were ordinary people who had killed no one before joining murderous Nazi institutions. They were corruptible and certainly responsible for what they did, but they became murderers mainly in atrocity-producing settings.

When I presented my work on Nazi doctors to U.S. medical groups, I received many thoughtful responses, including expressions of concern about much less extreme situations in which American doctors might be exposed to institutional pressures to violate their medical conscience. Frequently mentioned examples were prison doctors who administered or guided others in giving lethal injections to carry out the death penalty and military doctors in Vietnam who helped soldiers to become strong enough to resume their assignments in atrocity-producing situations.

Physicians are no more or less moral than other people. But as heirs to shamans and witch doctors, we may be seen by others - and sometimes by ourselves - as possessing special magic in connection with life and death. Various regimes have sought to harness that magic to their own despotic ends. Physicians have served as actual torturers in Chile and elsewhere; have surgically removed ears as punishment for desertion in Saddam Hussein's Iraq; have incarcerated political dissenters in mental hospitals, notably in the Soviet Union; have, as whites in South Africa, falsified medical reports on blacks who were tortured or killed; and have, as Americans associated with the Central Intelligence Agency, conducted harmful, sometimes fatal, experiments involving drugs and mind control.

With the possible exception of the altering of death certificates, the recent transgressions of U.S. military doctors have apparently not been of this order. But these examples help us to recognize what doctors are capable of when placed in atrocity-producing situations. A recent statement by the Physicians for Human Rights addresses this vulnerability in declaring that "torture can also compromise the integrity of health professionals." 5

To understand the full scope of American torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib and other prisons, we need to look more closely at the behavior of doctors and other medical personnel, as well as at the pressures created by the war in Iraq that produced this behavior. It is possible that some doctors, nurses, or medics took steps, of which we are not yet aware, to oppose the torture. It is certain that many more did not. But all those involved could nonetheless reveal, in valuable medical detail, much of what actually took place. By speaking out, they would take an important step toward reclaiming their role as healers.

Source Information
From the Department of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School, Boston.

References
* Zernike K. Only a few spoke up on abuse as many soldiers stayed silent <http://query.nytimes.com/search/abstract?res=F00A17F8345B0C718EDDAC0894DC404482> . New York Times. May 22, 2004:A1.
* Slevin P, Stephens J. Detainees' medical files shared: Guantanamo interrogators' access criticized <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29649-2004Jun9.html> . Washington Post. June 10, 2004:A1.
* Squitieri T, Moniz D. U.S. Army re-examines deaths of Iraqi prisoners <http://www.keepmedia.com/ShowItemDetails.do?itemID=496505&amp;extID=10032&amp;oliID=213> . USA Today. June 28, 2004.
* Lifton RJ. The Nazi doctors: medical killing and the psychology of genocide <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465049052/002-3943980-7039207?v=glance> . New York: Basic Books, 1986.
* Statement of Leonard Rubenstein <http://www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=13965&amp;c=36> , executive director, Physicians for Human Rights, June 2, 2004.

-------

------ End of Forwarded Message


---
You are currently subscribed to humed as: [email protected]
To unsubscribe send a blank email to [email protected]
To change your subscription to digest mode, send a blank email to [email protected].
 
Top