Anesthesiology Chances as a DO

[Melo00]

Hey guys, hope you all are doing well! I’m currently a 3rd medical student at an osteopathic school. I wanted to know what my chances applying to anesthesiology are, and if you all have any tips for me. I took COMLEX 1 and passed. Will be planning to take, and hopefully kill, step 2 and level 2 next june/july. I haven’t taken step 1 and am not sure if i should now. Currently doing pretty well on clinicals and will be applying to some elective anesthesia rotations next fall God-Willing. Have only 1 research under my belt. Any advice?

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[Dr. Anonymouss]

Anesthesia isn't a big research field so I wouldn't worry about that, but it is definitely becoming a high board scores type of specialty. The residency match process is a crap shoot honestly. You can only do a few things to actually improve your chances of matching. You will inevitably find it more difficult to match anesthesia as a DO, but that is something you unfortunately can't change. Yes it's more difficult, but by no means impossible. What you do have control over in terms of helping your chances the most your include your step II score and your letters of recommendation. Anesthesia is starting to move towards being a high board score specialty. I know at my program the faculty are always mentioning the scores of the applicants they interview. In addition to doing well academically, if you have an anesthesiologist or two who genuinely vouch for you then that carries so much weight. It's not always easy to find a great mentor, but if you are able to do this then their letter can really become a game changer in terms of you receiving the interview or not. Once you have the interview the rest is on you.

 

[Melo00]

Anesthesia isn't a big research field so I wouldn't worry about that, but it is definitely becoming a high board scores type of specialty. The residency match process is a crap shoot honestly. You can only do a few things to actually improve your chances of matching. You will inevitably find it more difficult to match anesthesia as a DO, but that is something you unfortunately can't change. Yes it's more difficult, but by no means impossible. What you do have control over in terms of helping your chances the most your include your step II score and your letters of recommendation. Anesthesia is starting to move towards being a high board score specialty. I know at my program the faculty are always mentioning the scores of the applicants they interview. In addition to doing well academically, if you have an anesthesiologist or two who genuinely vouch for you then that carries so much weight. It's not always easy to find a great mentor, but if you are able to do this then their letter can really become a game changer in terms of you receiving the interview or not. Once you have the interview the rest is on you.

I appreciate you reaching out, its great to receive some advice!
I will be trying to aim for the highest step 2 score, but what range of scores would you say is competitive now? In addition, would programs screen me out just because I haven't taken step 1? Thanks!

 

[ToKingdomCome]

Hey guys, hope you all are doing well! I’m currently a 3rd medical student at an osteopathic school. I wanted to know what my chances applying to anesthesiology are, and if you all have any tips for me. I took COMLEX 1 and passed. Will be planning to take, and hopefully kill, step 2 and level 2 next june/july. I haven’t taken step 1 and am not sure if i should now. Currently doing pretty well on clinicals and will be applying to some elective anesthesia rotations next fall God-Willing. Have only 1 research under my belt. Any advice?

You’ll be fine as long as you do well on step 2 and show an interest and some involvement with anesthesia, and get good LORs. It’s otherwise impossible to say with just a pass fail level 1

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Many programs will screen you for not having a Step 1. It’s a very easy filter to employ

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Many programs will screen you for not having a Step 1. It’s a very easy filter to employ

Does anyone really even do that anymore? Step 1 is a pass/no pass test. I think most programs would care about the target score in step 2

 

[ToKingdomCome]

Does anyone really even do that anymore? Step 1 is a pass/no pass test. I think most programs would care about the target score in step 2

I agree with this

 

[ToKingdomCome]

Many programs will screen you for not having a Step 1. It’s a very easy filter to employ

Definitely back in the day

 

[Doctoscope]

They still very much filter people out based on Step 1 because it's a very easy way for them to cut down on the # of applications, especially for competitive/semi-competitive specialties like rads/anesthesia. They have thousands of applications with a Step 1 P, so they don't really have a reason not to filter.

Source: my school's Dean of Residency Affairs or whatever it's called

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

I appreciate you reaching out, its great to receive some advice!
I will be trying to aim for the highest step 2 score, but what range of scores would you say is competitive now? In addition, would programs screen me out just because I haven't taken step 1? Thanks!

The average this year was 252. I’d say 255-260 is the range where you can feel fairly confident towards matching. That’s assuming the rest of your application looks good, but from an academic standpoint you won’t be turned down for that score. If you didn’t match it would be for other reasons. I have no answer for you on the step I question. It’s going to vary on the program, but what I can say is when you have so many applicants applying for such few spots you need a way to filter down the number to a manageable amount. One very easy way to do this would be to filter out those who didn’t take step I. I have no proof to back this claim up, but I can say after speaking to the admissions faculty at my program they mentioned how it’s impossible to review all the applications. Unfortunately the only solution is to select filters and choose from a smaller pool of applicants.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

They still very much filter people out based on Step 1 because it's a very easy way for them to cut down on the # of applications, especially for competitive/semi-competitive specialties like rads/anesthesia. They have thousands of applications with a Step 1 P, so they don't really have a reason not to filter.

Source: my school's Dean of Residency Affairs or whatever it's called

Well, if your program is going to consider DOs in the first place, you know that we take a different licensing exam. I don't think programs are in the business of just wanting to cut down the number of applicants. They are in the business of getting the best applicants for their programs. Hopefully, your dean is somewhat reliable. In my experience, these people in academia are there for the easy paycheck and rarely understand the real world

 

[Melo00]

The average this year was 252. I’d say 255-260 is the range where you can feel fairly confident towards matching. That’s assuming the rest of your application looks good, but from an academic standpoint you won’t be turned down for that score. If you didn’t match it would be for other reasons. I have no answer for you on the step I question. It’s going to vary on the program, but what I can say is when you have so many applicants applying for such few spots you need a way to filter down the number to a manageable amount. One very easy way to do this would be to filter out those who didn’t take step I. I have no proof to back this claim up, but I can say after speaking to the admissions faculty at my program they mentioned how it’s impossible to review all the applications. Unfortunately the only solution is to select filters and choose from a smaller pool of applicants.

Sounds good, ill definitely try to aim for as high as I can!
How was the process for you? What was something you wish you had known before applying, or throughout the process that would have helped or anything you would suggest going into the match? Thanks!

 

[Melo00]

You’ll be fine as long as you do well on step 2 and show an interest and some involvement with anesthesia, and get good LORs. It’s otherwise impossible to say with just a pass fail level 1

Appreciate it! Would you suggest broadly applying to low/mid tier programs as well as having backup speciality just in case?

 

[Melo00]

Many programs will screen you for not having a Step 1. It’s a very easy filter to employ

Yeah, some of my other fellow medical students have said the same thing. I hope that's not the case now that its Pas/Fail. Is that something you have seen from your own experience and heard PDs say?

 

[GoSpursGo]

I've merged two similar threads on this topic

 

[ToKingdomCome]

Appreciate it! Would you suggest broadly applying to low/mid tier programs as well as having backup speciality just in case?

Apply broadly. Back up if CK score isn’t good

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Does anyone really even do that anymore? Step 1 is a pass/no pass test. I think most programs would care about the target score in step 2

We do.

I agree with this

See above.

I don't think programs are in the business of just wanting to cut down the number of applicants. They are in the business of getting the best applicants for their programs.

They 100% are. When you’re in any sort of a competitive specialty (anesthesia is now solidly competitive) and you get literally 1500 applications for 10-15 spots (less in the even more competitive fields) You filter out stuff like that because there are plenty of other applicants who will have all of those very basic check boxes.

Yeah, some of my other fellow medical students have said the same thing. I hope that's not the case now that it’s Pas/Fail. Is that something you have seen from your own experience and heard PDs say?

Like I said above. We do. I’ve had the wonderful voluntold experience in being a part of the process

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

You should aim for 260+ and ideally 270+. Fields like anesthesia and surgery are going to be getting more and more competitive as people worry more about AI in non procedural specialties

 

[Ho0v-man]

We do.

See above.

They 100% are. When you’re in any sort of a competitive specialty (anesthesia is now solidly competitive) and you get literally 1500 applications for 10-15 spots (less in the even more competitive fields) You filter out stuff like that because there are plenty of other applicants who will have all of those very basic check boxes.

Like I said above. We do. I’ve had the wonderful voluntold experience in being a part of the process

QFT. I’m rads but no DO gets an interview without a step 1 P. There’s just too many great applicants that check all the boxes.

There’s too many applications. And I feel like anesthesia and radiology are in a weird position. In addition to being a primary interest, these fields are a reach for average applicants and safeties for those applying to the Uber competitive fields. So there’s A LOT of applications to sift through through a broad range of applicant caliber. There’s no reason to waste time on getting into an application when so many others have checked all the boxes.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Check out some uni affiliates. Some are very good. The one in our area does heavy CV, Neuro and transplants with accesst to our top 10 Children's hospital. But Step 2 score will be a major factor in your success, so do your best prep. Good luck and best wishes.

 

[mbdriver]

Does anyone really even do that anymore? Step 1 is a pass/no pass test. I think most programs would care about the target score in step 2

The 2024 NRMP Program Directors' Survey shows that 86% of anesthesiology program directors say they require DO applicants to have passed Step 1 (Charting Outcomes™: Program Director Survey Results, 2024 Main Residency Match®)

 

[holdthemayo]

Does anyone really even do that anymore? Step 1 is a pass/no pass test. I think most programs would care about the target score in step 2

Well, if your program is going to consider DOs in the first place, you know that we take a different licensing exam. I don't think programs are in the business of just wanting to cut down the number of applicants. They are in the business of getting the best applicants for their programs. Hopefully, your dean is somewhat reliable. In my experience, these people in academia are there for the easy paycheck and rarely understand the real world

The 2024 NRMP Program Directors' Survey shows that 86% of anesthesiology program directors say they require DO applicants to have passed Step 1 (Charting Outcomes™: Program Director Survey Results, 2024 Main Residency Match®)

My program interviews and ranks DOs and usually matches a couple each year. On average I would say that it is harder to get an interview as a DO, but once you have the interview you are on equal footing.

We do not interview anyone who hasn't passed Step 1 and taken Step 2. I've been a part of interviews and ranks meetings for my program. Our PD cares about Step for 2 reasons.

1. It's one of the only parts of the application that is fairly standard across the board.

2. Anesthesia residents must pass basic at the end of CA-1 year to progress through training. If a resident can't pass, you lose a resident. They want to know you can reliably excel on standardized tests.

As far as COMLEX goes, we know that it exists, but most of us have no idea what the scores mean or how to compare them to Step scores. That's maybe unfair, but it's true.

 

[Doctoscope]

My program interviews and ranks DOs and usually matches a couple each year. On average I would say that it is harder to get an interview as a DO, but once you have the interview you are on equal footing.

We do not interview anyone who hasn't passed Step 1 and taken Step 2. I've been a part of interviews and ranks meetings for my program. Our PD cares about Step for 2 reasons.

1. It's one of the only parts of the application that is fairly standard across the board.

2. Anesthesia residents must pass basic at the end of CA-1 year to progress through training. If a resident can't pass, you lose a resident. They want to know you can reliably excel on standardized tests.

As far as COMLEX goes, we know that it exists, but most of us have no idea what the scores mean or how to compare them to Step scores. That's maybe unfair, but it's true.

I don't think that's unfair at all. I don't know why some of my fellow DOs act like Step is this special exam that only the "privileged" get to take/is unnecessarily hard (actual quotes from fellow students), but Step is 1) the status quo exam that literally 75% of medical students have to take in this country to be ELIGIBLE to practice medicine, and 2) COMLEX 1 is bloated and inflated with OMM garbage.

If you want to be treated like 75% of the medical students in the country, then at least do the bare minimum those medical students are required to do (i.e., pass Step).

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

We do not interview anyone who hasn't passed Step 1 and taken Step 2.

As far as COMLEX goes, we know that it exists, but most of us have no idea what the scores mean or how to compare them to Step scores. That's maybe unfair, but it's true.

You don't know how to compare pass/no pass? There's sincerely zero reasons why to ask anyone to take the step 1, but I won't argue that it doesn't happen

 

[DOVinciRobot]

You don't know how to compare pass/no pass? There's sincerely zero reasons why to ask anyone to take the step 1, but I won't argue that it doesn't happen

The issue is a P on COMLEX doesn’t = a P on USMLE…

Sorry, but the fact that it’s the gold standard is reason enough. If you (the proverbial you) want to be treated the same as an MD applicant then take the same test.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

The issue is a P on COMLEX doesn’t = a P on USMLE…

Sorry, but the fact that it’s the gold standard is reason enough. If you (the proverbial you) want to be treated the same as an MD applicant then take the same test.

We agree that people are now being stratified based on step 2 score. Do we really think there's a scenario that someone who gets a 250 on their step 2 and has a pass on COMLEX 1 would be someone who can't achieve at least the very minimum to get a pass on their step 1? It's just time that we stop this game of having to pay extra for a test that's worth nothing

 

[DOVinciRobot]

We agree that people are now being stratified based on step 2 score. Do we really think there's a scenario that someone who gets a 250 on their step 2 and has a pass on COMLEX 1 would be someone who can't achieve at least the very minimum to get a pass on their step 1? It's just time that we stop this game of having to pay extra for a test that's worth nothing

It happens. I've seen it.

It's a matter of principle. If you want to be treated the same, take the same test. The real issue should be with the osteopathic "leadership" organizations who do nothing but continue the DO Difference for their own benefit. This is evidenced by the NBOME trying to roll out a thinly disguised new version of the COMLEX Level 2 PE

 

[holdthemayo]

You don't know how to compare pass/no pass? There's sincerely zero reasons why to ask anyone to take the step 1, but I won't argue that it doesn't happen

Honest answer? Nope. And don't have a reason to. It's not the same exam.

Many of our best residents have been DOs. None of them have been afraid to take the same exam that their MD counterparts have taken.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. The truth is, if you want to be fairly compared to the thousands of allopathic candidates, then take the same exam they do. We have multiple applicants every year who manage to do that.

Why should we alter our standards when there are so many worthwhile candidates every year (MD and DO) who can meet them?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Honest answer? Nope. And don't have a reason to. It's not the same exam.

Many of our best residents have been DOs. None of them have been afraid to take the same exam that their MD counterparts have taken.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. The truth is, if you want to be fairly compared to the thousands of allopathic candidates, then take the same exam they do. We have multiple applicants every year who manage to do that.

Why should we alter our standards when there are so many worthwhile candidates every year (MD and DO) who can meet them?

Why alter it? Because it costs money and time for applicants to take a test that doesn't tell you anything because everyone is scored based on pass/no pass. The real way to stratify is based on step 2, which is already wrong. Don't forget that once the merger happened, all residencies are co-owned by MD and DO organizations. Pushing students to keep spending on extra steps is wasteful, and we can see the hypocrisy because nobody cares once you're in residency and take Level 3 only.

 

[MDMechEngr]

Why alter it? Because it costs money and time for applicants to take a test that doesn't tell you anything because everyone is scored based on pass/no pass. The real way to stratify is based on step 2, which is already wrong. Don't forget that once the merger happened, all residencies are co-owned by MD and DO organizations. Pushing students to keep spending on extra steps is wasteful, and we can see the hypocrisy because nobody cares once you're in residency and take Level 3 only.

Co-owned means you have 50% of the vote. But it is not about that. It is about measuring every applicants using the same yard stick. If anything you should be advocating for DOs to replace Level 1 and 2 with Step 1 and 2, which is a better test is the concensus from the DO community. However, we all know that that might not be such a good idea for DO students in the 4th quartile of their class ranking.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Don't forget that once the merger happened, all residencies are co-owned by MD and DO organizations.

Nope. It was more of a hostile takeover. The olive branch of 20% of the vote was more symbolic than anything practical. There is a reason even former AOA programs are requiring Step…. I know of multiple surgery programs that are former DO only who will not interview people without Step.

If anything you should be advocating for DOs to replace Level 1 and 2 with Step 1 and 2, which is a better test is the concensus from the DO community

This. But Gimpel and the NBOME (and by extension the AOA) need ways to justify their own existence and maintain the power they’ve cultivated for themselves, so it won’t happen.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Nope. It was more of a hostile takeover. The olive branch of 20% of the vote was more symbolic than anything practical. There is a reason even former AOA programs are requiring Step…. I know of multiple surgery programs that are former DO only who will not interview people without Step.

This. But Gimpel and the NBOME (and by extension the AOA) need ways to justify their own existence and maintain the power they’ve cultivated for themselves, so it won’t happen.

It wasn't a takeover. The government pushed for this to be done, but anyway, I still see no reason to take step 1 except a few people who think people with a step 2 of 250 will all be failing step 1

 

[Ho0v-man]

It wasn't a takeover. The government pushed for this to be done, but anyway, I still see no reason to take step 1 except a few people who think people with a step 2 of 250 will all be failing step 1

It’s fine that you feel that way. But people involved in resident selection don’t feel that way. That’s the point. You can argue that it’s dumb or ridiculous or whatever else, and it’s not like there isn’t merit to your points.

But it’s not helpful to tell med students trying to make themselves competitive for residency to do something that will hurt their chances. Survey data and people who select med students for residency say that step 1 matters.

It doesn’t matter if you “see no reason to take step 1”. The reason is to get into residency! That’s reality!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

It’s fine that you feel that way. But people involved in resident selection don’t feel that way. That’s the point. You can argue that it’s dumb or ridiculous or whatever else, and it’s not like there isn’t merit to your points.

But it’s not helpful to tell med students trying to make themselves competitive for residency to do something that will hurt their chances. Survey data and people who select med students for residency say that step 1 matters.

It doesn’t matter if you “see no reason to take step 1”. The reason is to get into residency! That’s reality!

You're missing my point. I'm no longer telling students not to take it after learning from here that apparently some people are fixated on a useless test. I'm simply complaining at this point for sake of conversation