Another CNN article

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1) The general public is not aware of all of the hidden costs associated with medicine, including an expensive education, opportunity costs for a bright, motivated person, and long working hours when in practice. I don't really care what they think, except to the extent that it affects political decisions.

2) Because salaries in medicine are not controlled by a competitive market, there will always be much debate about what the proper amounts should be. It could well be that some doctors make too much and others not enough. That said, I'm not proposing that we create a purely competitive market.
 
It's too bad most people don't understand the time-value of money. :-/
 
I'm going to med school in lieu of banking or being an inter-dealer broker. At a boutique bank (not GS/MS/JPM) first year comp is about 100K, this is at a small boutique with 10 to 20 people, where comp tends to be the lowest. In 10 years time you're usually a VP and should at a small boutique make 300 to 500k, as a Managing Director, it is hard to say where I worked last summer (a middle market firm, that was probably 2nd or 3rd biggest in a major non-NYC/LA/SF/Chicago city) it varied from 400K to almost broaching 8 figures. Bankers work as hard as physicians if not more so, analyst hours make a gen surg residency look cush. Still in many ways the people who enter IB are comparable in terms of talent as to those that go into medicine. People also scramble to post near 4.0s, get internships and network, in many regards it is incredibly similar to premeds for those gunning for spots in banking. Also when you look to hourly pay for medicine that's when you get the real shock an average pediatrician makes about 150K, they do this working 48 weeks a year, 60 hours a week, this is an hourly rate of $52.08, not that good. Worse yet is the hourly wage as a resident 45K at 80 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, a princely $11.25 an hour.
 
It's too bad most people don't understand the time-value of money. :-/

Yes and opportunity cost. Here's an NPV analysis of Banking Vs. Medicine
Investment Banking:
145000 IB Analyst
165000 IB Analyst II
180000 PE Associate
200000 PE Associate II
-80000 MBA
-50000 MBA
225000 Post MBA Associate IB
250000 Post MBA Associate IB
NPV with 12% Discount rate $648,249.01

Medicine:

-60000 Med School
-60000 Med School
-60000 Med School
-60000 Med School
45000 Residency
48600 Residency
52488 Residency
56687.04 Residency
NPV with 12% Discount rate -$85,446.63
 
I'm going to med school in lieu of banking or being an inter-dealer broker. At a boutique bank (not GS/MS/JPM) first year comp is about 100K, this is at a small boutique with 10 to 20 people, where comp tends to be the lowest. In 10 years time you're usually a VP and should at a small boutique make 300 to 500k, as a Managing Director, it is hard to say where I worked last summer (a middle market firm, that was probably 2nd or 3rd biggest in a major non-NYC/LA/SF/Chicago city) it varied from 400K to almost broaching 8 figures. Bankers work as hard as physicians if not more so, analyst hours make a gen surg residency look cush. Still in many ways the people who enter IB are comparable in terms of talent as to those that go into medicine. People also scramble to post near 4.0s, get internships and network, in many regards it is incredibly similar to premeds for those gunning for spots in banking. Also when you look to hourly pay for medicine that's when you get the real shock an average pediatrician makes about 150K, they do this working 48 weeks a year, 60 hours a week, this is an hourly rate of $52.08, not that good. Worse yet is the hourly wage as a resident 45K at 80 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, a princely $11.25 an hour.

While I agree with what you say, I definitely don't agree with that. Clearly you haven't met the surgeons that I have.
 
While I agree with what you say, I definitely don't agree with that. Clearly you haven't met the surgeons that I have.

The hours in IB are extreme at Lazard hours are usually about 100 a week, I knew one guy who was staffed on a huge deal at MS he clocked in 115 during one particularly grueling week. Where I interned I averaged 80 hours a week, but it could be significantly more than that.
 
The article scrutinizing NBA players for "Just for putting a ball in a hoop.".

Is that what Kobe Bryant, MJ, LeBron James, and other NBA players do? I think their work ethic is just as rigorous or even more than physicians are.

His last article was bogus.
 
The hours in IB are extreme at Lazard hours are usually about 100 a week, I knew one guy who was staffed on a huge deal at MS he clocked in 115 during one particularly grueling week. Where I interned I averaged 80 hours a week, but it could be significantly more than that.

Yeah, my best friend is in that, tells me about crazy **** like that all the time. The guy I know (surgeon) routinely peaks/peaked at 120ish hours per week. These people are not human :scared:

The nature of the work is different though. An analyst does "grunt" work compared to the surgeon. Still, the amount of hours the eyes are open can come pretty darn close. That is the only thing about surgery that is pretty much turning me off. I'm afraid my divorce lawyer will turn into my wife, chef, nanny, and chauffeur -_-

The pointttttttttttttt is... physicians should get paid more.
 
Yeah, my best friend is in that, tells me about crazy **** like that all the time. The guy I know (surgeon) routinely peaks/peaked at 120ish hours per week. These people are not human :scared:

The nature of the work is different though. An analyst does "grunt" work compared to the surgeon. Still, the amount of hours the eyes are open can come pretty darn close. That is the only thing about surgery that is pretty much turning me off. I'm afraid my divorce lawyer will turn into my wife, chef, nanny, and chauffeur -_-

The pointttttttttttttt is... physicians should get paid more.

The only way for that to happen would be to get government out of medicine. The problem is this, all physicians are paid the same for the same service where medicare/insurance dominates. In the free market you'd have people paid differently based on a number of things, perceived quality, advertising, cost structure and reputation just to name a few. Until medicare/medicaid/insurance pays so poorly that people opt out en masse, it won't happen.

One issue no one touches upon is that doctors are generally awful businessman. No one looks at running lean practices, offshoring etc. That would be a way to improve the bottom line since top line growth is hard.
 
I can't stand people complaining about doctors' pay - especially my banker friends, thinking they've cleverly figured out the nation's healthcare woes.

Reading the CNN comments, everyone expects a doctor to be a full-time volunteer, but lawyers, bankers, etc. can do as they wish. Most other jobs contribute to quality of life, whereas many doctors prolong or save that very baseline - life itself!

It's absolutely absurd that people value other things more than their very lives. I think that most people don't even bother thinking about their health most of the time, and when they do go to the doc, they pay so little (and don't consider what insurance contributes). Health is out of sight, out of mind; no wonder people don't think twice about preserving it or paying people well to improve it for them. There's no sense of responsibility-ownership; even in the case of a mistake, the doctor gets sued for either an accident or years of patients' self-neglect.

That said, doctors get paid pretty well. The lifelong NPV for docs is probably much higher than most professions - even for bankers - especially when you compare average earners. As for doctors' image, it's up to them to fix it. The AMA reps only about 17% of doctors in the country (it represented almost 100% in 1965); we have no coherent voice!
 
I'm going to med school in lieu of banking or being an inter-dealer broker. At a boutique bank (not GS/MS/JPM) first year comp is about 100K, this is at a small boutique with 10 to 20 people, where comp tends to be the lowest. In 10 years time you're usually a VP and should at a small boutique make 300 to 500k, as a Managing Director, it is hard to say where I worked last summer (a middle market firm, that was probably 2nd or 3rd biggest in a major non-NYC/LA/SF/Chicago city) it varied from 400K to almost broaching 8 figures. Bankers work as hard as physicians if not more so, analyst hours make a gen surg residency look cush. Still in many ways the people who enter IB are comparable in terms of talent as to those that go into medicine. People also scramble to post near 4.0s, get internships and network, in many regards it is incredibly similar to premeds for those gunning for spots in banking. Also when you look to hourly pay for medicine that's when you get the real shock an average pediatrician makes about 150K, they do this working 48 weeks a year, 60 hours a week, this is an hourly rate of $52.08, not that good. Worse yet is the hourly wage as a resident 45K at 80 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, a princely $11.25 an hour.


Just about all of this is BS... most bankers don't end up raking in 300-500K after 10 years, nor do they start with 100. Also, their work is not comparable - not by hours, stress, or any other dimension - to what a surgeon does. No offense.
 
The article scrutinizing NBA players for "Just for putting a ball in a hoop.".

Is that what Kobe Bryant, MJ, LeBron James, and other NBA players do? I think their work ethic is just as rigorous or even more than physicians are.

His last article was bogus.

I agree on the work ethic part, but does it make sense to pay millions for (basically) a talented entertainer? Looking at the products being sold, healthcare vs entertainment, which do you think should be worth more? Granted I don't blame athletes or the teams for making big money, they have every right to do so if they can.

The problem is that there is a ceiling on the benefits doctors can give a consumer. Spending money on entertainment or investment keeps giving you increasing returns, whereas once you are healthy Doctors have little more to offer you (With the possible exceptions of Plastic surgeons and Psychiatrists, both of whom can easily make big money from private practice as a result). This ceiling effectively limits how much money will ever come into a medical organization like a hospital, and is why I doubt a Doctors salary will ever rise above that of a lawyer or Businessman of comparable skill.
 
The article scrutinizing NBA players for "Just for putting a ball in a hoop.".

Is that what Kobe Bryant, MJ, LeBron James, and other NBA players do? I think their work ethic is just as rigorous or even more than physicians are.

His last article was bogus.

You're right when it comes to work ethic and rigorous training but in the end its just entertainment. It shows the priority of today's society for sure. Its amazing how much entertainers(actors, athletes & musicians) make these days. Should they make a nice income, absolutely. But some of their salaries for one movie or one season of play are just mind blowing. Patrick Dempsey who plays a doctor on Grey's Anatomy earns 250k per episode. If you are in it for the money, it might be easier pretending to be a doctor.

I've never thought that health care workers in general were overpaid. It's fair to say they earn every penny, this goes for teachers as well. This reiterates my point on our priorities as a society. With that said after my finals I need to go see the Avengers, priorities. :laugh:

Below is a good article of UPS driver salary vs Physician salary.

http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html
 
Its amazing how much entertainers(actors, athletes & musicians) make these days.

You mean musical entertainers. Musical artists make crappy salaries these days.
 
You mean musical entertainers. Musical artists make crappy salaries these days.

Good point Calvin. We can't confuse Lady Gaga's salary and the average musical artist. I read somewhere she was banking 1 mil a concert. 😱
 
Yes and opportunity cost. Here's an NPV analysis of Banking Vs. Medicine
Investment Banking:
145000 IB Analyst
165000 IB Analyst II
180000 PE Associate
200000 PE Associate II
-80000 MBA
-50000 MBA
225000 Post MBA Associate IB
250000 Post MBA Associate IB
NPV with 12% Discount rate $648,249.01

Medicine:

-60000 Med School
-60000 Med School
-60000 Med School
-60000 Med School
45000 Residency
48600 Residency
52488 Residency
56687.04 Residency
NPV with 12% Discount rate -$85,446.63
These numbers do not look right. What source are you using?

Also, don't forget where you costs of living for NYC and San Francisco where a lot of these banking jobs are. And of course the cutthroat culture.
 
Let's not forget that for every Brad Pitt you see pulling down millions, there's thousands of actors trying to catch a break, the lucky few perhaps getting a role in a theatre company for $20,000 a year. Ditto for athletes...there's just not that many MJ's and LBJ's out there.

If we're going to complain about others, let's not pick on these small fields where there's barely a handful that make that kind of money in the first place. It's like choosing the richest partners in some group practice when complaining about doctors.

The realm of finance is different. They're fair game.
 
If you ever ask yourself the question "should I read CNN.com article comments?"

The answer is always "NO."
 
Let's not forget that for every Brad Pitt you see pulling down millions, there's thousands of actors trying to catch a break, the lucky few perhaps getting a role in a theatre company for $20,000 a year. Ditto for athletes...there's just not that many MJ's and LBJ's out there.

If we're going to complain about others, let's not pick on these small fields where there's barely a handful that make that kind of money in the first place. It's like choosing the richest partners in some group practice when complaining about doctors.

The realm of finance is different. They're fair game.

Although it's true that most entertainers don't make millions of dollars, it still comes back to the same point. Based purely in terms of what they contribute to society a doctor should make more money than an actor, Brad Pitt or not.
 
If you ever ask yourself the question "should I read CNN.com article comments?"

The answer is always "NO."

They're only slightly better than Yahoo comments. None as bad as YouTube.
 
Although it's true that most entertainers don't make millions of dollars, it still comes back to the same point. Based purely in terms of what they contribute to society a doctor should make more money than an actor, Brad Pitt or not.


Does it really matter what the top 0.001% make? The median doctor salary is SEVERAL TIMES greater than the median actor salary. Even extremely accomplished actors (I.E. leading roles in a big city theatre production) make less than the average doctor. Literally the only ones that make more are the super rare hollywood stars. There's no sense in making sweeping statements about an entire distribution based on how their outliers compare.
 
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