Another PhD to MD

[Aprila]

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[PipetteDreams]

While I am unable to comment on your transcript, I am hoping you could speak to more of your application, so that you are prepared appropriately to apply in 2019:

1. Have you taken the MCAT?

2. What sort of clinical experience do you have?

3. What sort of extracurriculars do you have?

When I first went to apply to medical school, I was absolutely overwhelmed with what all goes into a successful application. I just want to avoid that same sort of shock for you.

For context, I am an M1 who applied in the final year of my PhD, so I know it can be done! If you don't want to post publicly, feel free to PM me.

 

[Aprila]

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[PipetteDreams]

Thank you PipetteDreams. Congrats on your acceptance!

Answering your questions, I have not taken the MCAT yet. Plan to take it in summer. As far as the clinical experience I have some hospice volunteering. No shadowing. My ECs : Couple of papers, a patent, a book chapter if it counts.

Okay, so first off - you seem like a great academic. You have papers, you've created something worth patenting, and you were trusted by someone to write a book chapter. All that's really neat!

Now, I'm going to tell you the advice that I was given when I decided to apply. All of this is what my mentors told me, and one of them was the director of an MSTP for over fifteen years:

1. You need to demonstrate 'why medicine.'

Yes, this is true for everyone. But, you're coming to medicine away from basic sciences. Many people will think you are running away from science. You need to show them that, instead, you are passionately running to medicine. It's not that you're afraid of being a lab rat, running in the R01 wheel; it's because your career would be incomplete without working to improve the health of patients - whatever that means to you.

So, briefly tell me - why medicine? Once you earn an MD, do you see yourself working with patients? Why or why not?

2. You need shadowing experience.

You will not get into medical school without shadowing.

One of my biggest weaknesses when applying was my lack of shadowing experience; I had around 50 hours in four different specialties. I also volunteered 600+ hours at a hospital during my undergrad, and collaborated on multiple projects (in clinic) across multiple specialities. Note: you should aim to shadow before you take the MCAT. Why? Because you need to show you made the decision to apply to medical school based on a deep understanding of what it's actually like to practice in medicine. Again, you're running to medicine.

3. You need to take the MCAT.

What is your plan for taking it? Are you able to take time off to study for it and what is your baseline?

Note: you don't need a stellar baseline, just a good plan on how to improve. I started from a pretty low place, as I had never taken a biochemistry, sociology, or psychology course. But ended up doing well after creating a focused plan and sticking to it (also happy to share).

4. You need to show that you love helping others.

There's a certain stigma around scientists. Faculty may think you want to use patients merely as subjects for experiments. My mentors have seen applications with this goal. They have also seen interviewers criticize applicants with PhDs, assuming that was their intent - whether or not it was true. You need to show genuine empathy and compassion towards others. Again, you are doing this to help your future patients. You are not doing it because - or in spite - of your science.

It's really great that you're volunteering at a hospice - that definitely shows that you care about serving others! Do you have a history of leadership or any incidents of working as a team? Or perhaps did you engage in teaching and mentoring throughout graduate school? Anything to show that you engage with your community will strengthen your application.

5. What's your undergrad GPA? Overall and science?

I know you have a tricky situation. I believe different schools have different requirements regarding international credits, but I'd leave it up to the experts (@Goro @Catalystik?)

Unfortunately, your GPA matters far more than your graduate school grades or (honestly) most work you've done since. People didn't care about my graduate grades at all, but certainly commented on my undergraduate numbers.

While this post may be overwhelming, I hope it helps paint a picture as to what lies ahead before medical school. I had a lot of eye-opening to do when I first started to apply. Looking back, I am amazed I got in (my application cycle was... late). I really wish I had sought advice sooner, because these were all things I learned on the fly.

Best of luck to you!

 

[Catalystik]

I believe different schools have different requirements regarding international credits, but I'd leave it up to the experts (@Goro @Catalystik?)

Some med schools accepting internationals will be happy with 30-60 US credits. Others require 90, and a rare few require an entire US (or Canadian) undergrad degree. It's a common (but not universal) expectation that all the prerequisites be taken in the US. Since there is so much variety in policy among US MD schools, you will have to access school-specific websites and see what's true for each of the ones you plan to target.

 

[Catalystik]

I'm a PhD student soon to graduate.

I always wanted to apply to med school but couldn't find a way while in the program. I appreciate if you could advise me on what to do. I have a foreign degree with about 60 credits in US. I have taken some undegrad courses while in PhD. However I'm not sure is AMCAS would categorize them as undergrad. Registrar's office will give me only one transcript with grad and undergrad courses together. Except one or two of these courses, I'm not using the others towards my degree plan.

1-Does anyone have any idea if these courses will be counted as undergrad?

I'm trying to take a couple of pre-reqs in cc, since it's cheaper, I already have a MS in the subject, but I think it will not be accepted because they were grad courses.

2-If I don't transfer these cc credits to a 4-year university will they still be accepted by medical schools?

I'm trying to apply 2019.

Any input is appreciated!

1) Any undergrad class you took that was not required by your grad degree program can be classified as undergrad by you, and will count as Undergrad in GPA calculations by AMCAS.

2) Yes, they will still be included in the calculations for your application GPAs. You are required to submit original transcripts from every US college attended.

 

[Aprila]

Thank you so much Catalystik. It would be great if I can count these courses as undergrad. I'm planning to take 2 of the pre-reqs (I,II) in cc. I already have a Master's in the subject and in US. The courses are graduate though. Do you think I need to repeat them anyways just to have all pre-reqs in US?

 

[Aprila]

1. You need to demonstrate 'why medicine.'
To be honest I wanted to go to medicine from the beginning. I didn't have the resources. I went to the PhD. I was involved with biomedical research though. All being said I don't want to write R01s as a career despite enjoying research (does anyone want to?)! I would want to have patient contact and be involved in research. I have came across MDs that are not good scientists. They just don't have the analytical background. On the other hand, scientists lack the medical knowledge to come up with realistic goals. I would want to do both.
2. You need shadowing experience.
I'll try to get some...very difficult though.

3. You need to take the MCAT.
Except the sciences, I haven't seen other subjects. I plan to take it in summer with a full time job, dissertation and courses. I'm not sure how successful I can be.

4. You need to show that you love helping others.
I do care about others. I enjoy the hospice volunteering. I don't have any leadership experience, but I have taught many grad and undergrad courses.

5. What's your undergrad GPA? Overall and science?
About 3.8 for the 60 US credits from a middle rank university.


Thank you !

 

[Catalystik]

Thank you so much Catalystik. It would be great if I can count these courses as undergrad. I'm planning to take 2 of the pre-reqs (I,II) in cc. I already have a Master's in the subject and in US. The courses are graduate though. Do you think I need to repeat them anyways just to have all pre-reqs in US?

Not always. I am aware of situations just like your own where the requirement was waived at some med schools due to grad school discipline, but this outcome cannot be relied on, especially when you don't yet know how competitive your application will be numbers-wise (and to which schools you'll apply). It would be most conservative to say Best to fulfill the stated requirements, lest your application list be so restricted as to markedly decrease your odds of success. Keep in mind that for most schools, the prerequisites need not be completed prior to application, but rather prior to matriculation.

You might start researching the specific requirements for schools you plan to target, considering several possible ranges of MCAT outcome, and see what their websites say, their admissions office states, or how the MSAR reads.

An example SDN candidate for whom not retaking turned out well: My successful application as a non-traditional student with a foreign education

 

[PipetteDreams]

2. You need shadowing experience.
I'll try to get some...very difficult though.

!

What's your biggest hurdle to gaining shadowing experience? Is your program associated with a hospital? Let's figure this out.

Really, I had tons of volunteer hours + clinical collaborations physically in the clinic. It wasn't enough - I wish I listened to my professors who told me to shadow even more than I did.

3. You need to take the MCAT.
Except the sciences, I haven't seen other subjects. I plan to take it in summer with a full time job, dissertation and courses. I'm not sure how successful I can be.

!

Can you take a month off to study? Perhaps in May or June? Or sooner?

Many people are able to balance a full schedule and pull off great MCAT scores. For me, personally, I was fortunate to have a month of very little else (some research here and there, but not much), and really have no idea how I would have done that without the time to focus on this test. For me, my key to success was being able to take many, many full length exams - which meant taking whole days to study.

You seem open minded and focused on getting there. Being sincere about going into medicine, which you are, paired with your GPA is a great start. Demonstrating that you've used your skillset during graduate school to help others (i.e., teaching) will be helpful, too.

 

[Aprila]

Actually I contacted 20+ MD/DO offices for shadowing and didn't hear from them. There is an affiliation but it's a formal shadowing program for students in the pre-med track only. I'm not allowed to be in that program I was told.

I might be able to take a month off. I totally agree with you: taking full lengths is the way to go from my understanding. Do you mind sharing how many/which FLs did you take? And how long did it take to get used to it (aka total study time).

 

[Aprila]

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[PipetteDreams]

Actually I contacted 20+ MD/DO offices for shadowing and didn't hear from them. There is an affiliation but it's a formal shadowing program for students in the pre-med track only. I'm not allowed to be in that program I was told.

That sounds really frustrating. Cold calling may indeed be difficult. While you've likely thought of it, it's worth asking: do you have any collaborations from research you can use? My PhD committee needed to have at least one clinician, and I know that's common. Maybe you can talk to a trusted advisor or some in your network to facilitate a personal connection? Most people in biomedical research work closely with clinicians, and often they're academics who would be open to letting a student shadow.

Do you know any medical students? Could you ask them if they know any friendly attendings who may be interested in letting a potential medical student shadow?

I might be able to take a month off. I totally agree with you: taking full lengths is the way to go from my understanding. Do you mind sharing how many/which FLs did you take? And how long did it take to get used to it (aka total study time).

From prior advice I've given:
"Take as many practice tests as possible! The new MCAT is ~7.5 hours long, so test fatigue is a very real issue. Taking practice tests in full test setting (no phone, only break when you're supposed to for as long as you're supposed to) is extremely important. My last two weeks of studying, I was on a three day cycle: (1) take test, (2) review test, (3) review topics I missed on the test or topics I felt weak on.

I used the Next Step Test Prep exams 1-7 (DO NOT TAKE NUMBER 6), as well as their Qbank for when I only had short amount of time free. I also used the AAMC practice tests (2 weeks and 1 week out), though I thought they were both easier than my actual test. These were extremely worth the money spent, and I know my score would have been much lower had I not taken so many practice tests."

Happy to PM you the rest 🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

OP, this is all good advice. You should take it to heart, because without improving these areas of your app, you are not going to interest any adcom in selecting you as a med school candidate.

Okay, so first off - you seem like a great academic. You have papers, you've created something worth patenting, and you were trusted by someone to write a book chapter. All that's really neat!

Now, I'm going to tell you the advice that I was given when I decided to apply. All of this is what my mentors told me, and one of them was the director of an MSTP for over fifteen years:

1. You need to demonstrate 'why medicine.'

Yes, this is true for everyone. But, you're coming to medicine away from basic sciences. Many people will think you are running away from science. You need to show them that, instead, you are passionately running to medicine. It's not that you're afraid of being a lab rat, running in the R01 wheel; it's because your career would be incomplete without working to improve the health of patients - whatever that means to you.

So, briefly tell me - why medicine? Once you earn an MD, do you see yourself working with patients? Why or why not?

2. You need shadowing experience.

You will not get into medical school without shadowing.

One of my biggest weaknesses when applying was my lack of shadowing experience; I had around 50 hours in four different specialties. I also volunteered 600+ hours at a hospital during my undergrad, and collaborated on multiple projects (in clinic) across multiple specialities. Note: you should aim to shadow before you take the MCAT. Why? Because you need to show you made the decision to apply to medical school based on a deep understanding of what it's actually like to practice in medicine. Again, you're running to medicine.

3. You need to take the MCAT.

What is your plan for taking it? Are you able to take time off to study for it and what is your baseline?

Note: you don't need a stellar baseline, just a good plan on how to improve. I started from a pretty low place, as I had never taken a biochemistry, sociology, or psychology course. But ended up doing well after creating a focused plan and sticking to it (also happy to share).

4. You need to show that you love helping others.

There's a certain stigma around scientists. Faculty may think you want to use patients merely as subjects for experiments. My mentors have seen applications with this goal. They have also seen interviewers criticize applicants with PhDs, assuming that was their intent - whether or not it was true. You need to show genuine empathy and compassion towards others. Again, you are doing this to help your future patients. You are not doing it because - or in spite - of your science.

It's really great that you're volunteering at a hospice - that definitely shows that you care about serving others! Do you have a history of leadership or any incidents of working as a team? Or perhaps did you engage in teaching and mentoring throughout graduate school? Anything to show that you engage with your community will strengthen your application.

5. What's your undergrad GPA? Overall and science?

I know you have a tricky situation. I believe different schools have different requirements regarding international credits, but I'd leave it up to the experts (@Goro @Catalystik?)

Unfortunately, your GPA matters far more than your graduate school grades or (honestly) most work you've done since. People didn't care about my graduate grades at all, but certainly commented on my undergraduate numbers.

While this post may be overwhelming, I hope it helps paint a picture as to what lies ahead before medical school. I had a lot of eye-opening to do when I first started to apply. Looking back, I am amazed I got in (my application cycle was... late). I really wish I had sought advice sooner, because these were all things I learned on the fly.

Best of luck to you!

 

[Biphasic889]

I'm also a non-trad PhD to MD path in the current MD cycle (entering fall of 2019). I agree with the advice from above, especially the "why medicine" and MCAT advice. Most of my interview questions (so far) have centered around my decision to pursue medicine and why I choose to do so now. Use your experiences and shadowing (once you get it set up) to demonstrate your intent and commitment to medicine. Also, try to highlight the positive aspects of your graduate training that have led you to pursue medicine and present the transition PhD to MD transition in a logical manner. As for the MCAT, I suggest taking adequate time to prepare for the test: 1-2 months of content review and practice tests (as many as you can!). Having a PhD will not compensate for a low score. Therefore, give yourself enough time to take the test and re-test (if needed) within the application cycle. Practice tests and questions banks are key for learning the format and the pacing of the exam. The AAMC FLs are very good and approximate the real test. Additionally, the AAMC practice banks for Chem/Phys, Bio, and Psyc/Soc are a good way to review content. Good luck with your application!