Another reason not to do IBR and why student loans matter!!!

[Trent Steele]

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It's not so much that IBR is responsible for the rise in tuition, although it may be a contributing factor to irresponsible borrowing. You are right that IBR was implemented to deal with the rising cost of tuition, although it serves as a temporary band-aid at best. If the government stopped loaning unlimited money to anyone with pulse who wants an education, then tuition costs wouldn't be so high and we might not even need IBR in the first place.

Perhaps, but change should come from the top down. If extreme conservatives are that concerned with the student loan crisis (and they should be, people can't pay), legislation should be introduced to curb the costs of higher ed. Perhaps not having a plethora of six figure administrative middle managers with no reports would do nicely. Limiting fed lending to private institutions would get them to lower costs very quickly to be competitive. Slashing programs meant to provide relief which the majority do not abuse is ridiculous. Note I also listed a source that only 2-3% of borrowers utililize income driven plans so no way in hell they are contributing to rising costs. Tuition is skyrocketing because the bachelors degree has become the new high school diploma.

^ the same argument was made before the housing crisis. Why should only some people qualify for a mortgage? And look at what happened. The government wants everyone to own a house and the bankers got greedy and handed out loans to just about everyone. Prices went thru the roof. We all know what happened after that.

Are you seriously comparing income driven payment plans on student loans to the legitimately criminal practices widespread mortgage underwriting abuse to people with horrible if any credit and criminal behavior by the iBanks that sank our country into a recession? Again 2-3% of borrowers utilize income driven plans. Not the majority of american adults as was in the recession. Student loans are a huge bubble but they don't even get discharged in bankruptcy- they have you on the hook till death do you part. C'mon man.

Lets break it down one more time-

Again assuming you take out a 200k loan, you make 130k as a pharmacist, you will be paying around $1400 a month x 25 years. Even with Income driven plans, you end up paying $420,000 over the 25 year term for IBR, and still get hit with an income tax bomb at the end, thus giving the fed a 300%+ profit on the loan with IBR regardless. And that is still insane. And this is assuming you never get married, because in that case, your payments will be even higher as youll then need to factor in your spouses income to your repayment percentage.

And for the minuscule percentage of IBR users (so even less than 1% of ALL borrowers) that qualify for PSLF, they would still pay $170k of the loan back over 10 years, all the while working at a lower paying job than the private sector. So yeah, the massive profits from all other student loans (again, FedLoan almost as profitable than Exxon mobil in its prime) will surely make up for that 30k that is forgiven. So please cut the bull**** already. *drops mic

 

[PharmtoCS]

Perhaps, but change should come from the top down. If extreme conservatives are that concerned with the student loan crisis (and they should be, people can't pay), legislation should be introduced to curb the costs of higher ed. Perhaps not having a plethora of six figure administrative middle managers with no reports would do nicely. Slashing programs meant to provide relief which the majority do not abuse is ridiculous. Note I also listed a source that only 2-3% of borrowers utililize income driven plans so no way in hell they are contributing to rising costs. Tuition is skyrocketing because the bachelors degree has become the new high school diploma.

I agree that legislation needs to be introduced/changed to curb higher ed costs. One way to start would be to cap loan amounts so that students do not borrow $100k+ for a useless degree that will only land them a minimum wage job. With the limit on the amount one can borrow, schools wils eatsl no longer able to charge as much as they want, so they will have to cut the overpaid middle managers who provide little value.

Profitability of higher ed will decrease, so many schools will likely close and the supply of higher ed will decrease. This is a good thing right now, because students will actually have to earn admission slots instead of being allowed to borrow six figures to enroll in program which they have no business being in the first place.

 

[confettiflyer]

One way to start would be to cap loan amounts so that students do not borrow $100k+ for a useless degree that will only land them a minimum wage job.

So who gets to decide what a useless degree is? Do we use BOL statistics? Do we set up a new federal bureaucracy to handle such reviews? Do we reprivatize the student loan process? What's the redress for patients that don't get their loans approved? How quickly can such a board move when market conditions improve or worsen? Do we adjust for regional differences in supply and demand? Is such a board or oversight committee legal under Sherman?

Great idea on paper, but difficult to implement.
[/QUOTE]

 

[confettiflyer]

Speaking of loan forgiveness....

http://www.wsj.com/articles/thousan...oans-saying-schools-defrauded-them-1453285800

 

[steveysmith54]

Again assuming you take out a 200k loan, you make 130k as a pharmacist, you will be paying around $1400 a month x 25 years. Even with Income driven plans, you end up paying $420,000 over the 25 year term for IBR, and still get hit with an income tax bomb at the end, thus giving the fed a 300%+ profit on the loan with IBR regardless. And that is still insane. And this is assuming you never get married, because in that case, your payments will be even higher as youll then need to factor in your spouses income to your repayment percentage.

An

ok so you've doubled your numbers from original post that stated 100K that you claimed a student would borrow. How about using actual #'s from a middle of pack california school like Touro, which is estimated to be 80K per year of tuition/cost of living.

http://studentservices.tu.edu/_reso...ndance/cop/COP_15-16_2019_1st_Year_Budget.doc

For the sake of argument lets say it's more a 300K loan. How soon until it's close to 400K loan, well lets just forget about that for now. As mentioned prior, with the rate of projected unemployment, consolidation of chains, cuts in hours, an average new grad rph will not be making 130K, like you claim. It will be more like 80-100K in the next 5 years. Point is, there is absolutely no way these loans will be repaid even interest free like you claim.

 

[confettiflyer]

ok so you've doubled your numbers from original post that stated 100K that you claimed a student would borrow. How about using actual #'s from a middle of pack california school like Touro, which is estimated to be 80K per year of tuition/cost of living.

http://studentservices.tu.edu/_reso...ndance/cop/COP_15-16_2019_1st_Year_Budget.doc

For the sake of argument lets say it's more a 300K loan. How soon until it's close to 400K loan, well lets just forget about that for now. As mentioned prior, with the rate of projected unemployment, consolidation of chains, cuts in hours, an average new grad rph will not be making 130K, like you claim. It will be more like 80-100K in the next 5 years. Point is, there is absolutely no way these loans will be repaid even interest free like you claim.

Who, on God's green earth, spends $2100/mo on room & board in....VALLEJO?!

That's the mortgage on a 4 bedroom house on the outskirts of town (the nice areas).

 

[BMBiology]

Perhaps, but change should come from the top down. If extreme conservatives are that concerned with the student loan crisis (and they should be, people can't pay), legislation should be introduced to curb the costs of higher ed. Perhaps not having a plethora of six figure administrative middle managers with no reports would do nicely. Limiting fed lending to private institutions would get them to lower costs very quickly to be competitive. Slashing programs meant to provide relief which the majority do not abuse is ridiculous. Note I also listed a source that only 2-3% of borrowers utililize income driven plans so no way in hell they are contributing to rising costs. Tuition is skyrocketing because the bachelors degree has become the new high school diploma.



Are you seriously comparing income driven payment plans on student loans to the legitimately criminal practices widespread mortgage underwriting abuse to people with horrible if any credit and criminal behavior by the iBanks that sank our country into a recession? Again 2-3% of borrowers utilize income driven plans. Not the majority of american adults as was in the recession. Student loans are a huge bubble but they don't even get discharged in bankruptcy- they have you on the hook till death do you part. C'mon man.

Lets break it down one more time-

Again assuming you take out a 200k loan, you make 130k as a pharmacist, you will be paying around $1400 a month x 25 years. Even with Income driven plans, you end up paying $420,000 over the 25 year term for IBR, and still get hit with an income tax bomb at the end, thus giving the fed a 300%+ profit on the loan with IBR regardless. And that is still insane. And this is assuming you never get married, because in that case, your payments will be even higher as youll then need to factor in your spouses income to your repayment percentage.

And for the minuscule percentage of IBR users (so even less than 1% of ALL borrowers) that qualify for PSLF, they would still pay $170k of the loan back over 10 years, all the while working at a lower paying job than the private sector. So yeah, the massive profits from all other student loans (again, FedLoan almost as profitable than Exxon mobil in its prime) will surely make up for that 30k that is forgiven. So please cut the bull**** already. *drops mic

Do you really think some people are not abusing the system? Using student loan money to go on vacation? Buy stocks? Just take classes at a JC so they can keep on deferring their student loans?

Let's not even talk about all of these schools opening up and charging crazy tuition because we give student loans to just about anybody. These students are going to end up unemployed and will never be able to pay back their loans. How is this not an abuse of the system?

You qualify for PSLF when you work as a pharmacist at Kaiser, at the VA, at Cedars. So dont tell me these pharmacists are being paid less. They are not. Why should these pharmacists get a break while other pharmacists are not?

Like I said before - IBR and PAYE are a crappy deal. You will end up paying more. The only benefit is PSLF because everything is forgiven after 10 years, tax free.

 

[PAtoPharm]

[Isn'tE="Aznfarmerboi, post: 17334169, member: 70044"]I understand your logic... Except you are not a corporation. The rules are different for you.

You can't declare bankruptcy from student loans and start over again like businesses. The rules are not set in your favor. You don't have lobbyists to buy off politicians. You don't have teams of big lawyers protecting you. No one cares about you because you are a little guy.

Your goals are different from a corporation too...

Like getting married, buying a house, and having kids one day. Maybe not... And it's all about the options.

But let's say that you do run your life like a Corp.... What is your return on investment? Return on Risk/ liability? From doing IBR versus paying off student loans faster? For most pharmacists, IBR makes no sense and for most people who have to take out 250k in loans, this profession is not worth it.[/QUOTE]

Isn't it almost impossible to go to pharmacy school and not finish with at least 250k in loans? Even here in the southeast, public schools charge $30-40k per year for tuition, and then you have to consider 4 years worth of living expenses to go into debt to pay for (unless someone lives at home with their family).

 

[Sugoi Travis]

Isn't it almost impossible to go to pharmacy school and not finish with at least 250k in loans? Even here in the southeast, public schools charge $30-40k per year for tuition, and then you have to consider 4 years worth of living expenses to go into debt to pay for (unless someone lives at home with their family).

No it's possible. You work during pharmacy school in order to cover your living expenses, make smart financial decisions and stretch your dollar out as far as possible. A lot of sacrifices have to be made to do that, but it is 100% doable. I've worked ever since I started pharmacy school and I'll be graduating with 150k in debt despite my school charging 38k/year.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Agree I work with people on PSLF

Agree- I work with people on PSLF who will basically pay back ~110K of a 250K loan balance. Makes me upset because a lot of them went to the Pharmacy school I wanted to attend I didn't because the cost was much higher. Also, makes me mad my parents paid all that money for my schooling when I could have just gone into massive debt.

I also know a ton of ppl that used student loans to do none school things (vacation, car, buy a house, rather than rent, etc)

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk

It makes my blood boil to think that anyone can borrow money to go on vacations and have those loans forgiven. I wonder if we can report them for suspected student loan fraud.

 

[Chriskahn]

Isn't it almost impossible to go to pharmacy school and not finish with at least 250k in loans? Even here in the southeast, public schools charge $30-40k per year for tuition, and then you have to consider 4 years worth of living expenses to go into debt to pay for (unless someone lives at home with their family).

My school is 24k a year. I borrow 33k a year to cover living expenses. Except P4 year, I'm only borrowing 24k since I will be living at home during rotations. I'm not working I'm just living off of loans. I'll end up owing 125k after I graduate.

 

[gwarm01]

My school was around 13k a year, and I took out about 20k to help cover living expenses while working part time at a hospital. Of course, my wife was working full time although not making much money.

Looking now, tuition is close to 20k per year and I've only been out for a few years. Crazy how quickly it's rising.

 

[confettiflyer]

I'm surprised no one has discussed amenity spiking as a cause for tuition increases.

I started undergrad just after my school broke ground on new on campus dorms and apartments...same deal at UCLA (De Neve if anyone cares). All the new stuff was INCREDIBLY well appointed, but I had friends in older dorms that were pretty bare (basic bed, desk, old basic rocking chair).

Beautiful chandeliers, private bathrooms for everyone, common areas that rivaled hotel lobbies (and looked like Google's office), gourmet/high end dining commons, valet parking, etc...

The sushi at UCLA commons was pretty damn tasty.

I figured out later that a lot of the well-to-do pressured/shopped around for these things for their college experience. So the money equation for schools was "build it and the rich kids will come."

 

[monkieez]

My school is 24k a year. I borrow 33k a year to cover living expenses. Except P4 year, I'm only borrowing 24k since I will be living at home during rotations. I'm not working I'm just living off of loans. I'll end up owing 125k after I graduate.

Just a bit of advice. Make sure to borrow just a little extra to pay for board exams and licensing. You have to do that ahead of time. Not to mention flights, suits and other stuff if you are applying to residency or jobs out of state.

 

[Silent Cool]

Who, on God's green earth, spends $2100/mo on room & board in....VALLEJO?!

That's the mortgage on a 4 bedroom house on the outskirts of town (the nice areas).

I actually lived in Vallejo and I paid about 1300 per month to live in a decent 2 bd apartment. Vallejo is a very dangerous area and you do NOT want to live in most parts of it. That said, much of Vallejo is pricier than you think. A simple Craigslist search will tell you that, and Mare Island, which is where Touro is located, is pricey as well. Renting one bedroom in a house probably costs about 1000 with all utilities included. Consider your food, gas, etc.. on top of that and coming close to 2100/mo is easy to do.

 

[Silent Cool]

ok so you've doubled your numbers from original post that stated 100K that you claimed a student would borrow. How about using actual #'s from a middle of pack california school like Touro, which is estimated to be 80K per year of tuition/cost of living.

http://studentservices.tu.edu/_reso...ndance/cop/COP_15-16_2019_1st_Year_Budget.doc

For the sake of argument lets say it's more a 300K loan. How soon until it's close to 400K loan, well lets just forget about that for now. As mentioned prior, with the rate of projected unemployment, consolidation of chains, cuts in hours, an average new grad rph will not be making 130K, like you claim. It will be more like 80-100K in the next 5 years. Point is, there is absolutely no way these loans will be repaid even interest free like you claim.

With interest rates around 7 percent the cost is 400K-ish if a person does a one-year residency.

 

[steveysmith54]

With interest rates around 7 percent the cost is 400K-ish if a person does a one-year residency.

I am assuming you actually went to touro... I was just using it as an example bc i consider it a middle of the pack pharm school in CA.

I still think without IBR/PAYE and federal loans there is no way that a school can get away with charging this much for tuition. There is no expensive lab equipment and professors are getting paid below retail salaries... unacceptable.

 

[MindGeek]

http://studentservices.tu.edu/_reso...ndance/cop/COP_15-16_2019_1st_Year_Budget.doc

I love how Touro says you can just borrow 33k/year Unsubsidized Stafford x4 years like it's automatic. The aggregate Unsub. Stafford loan limit is 138.5k. That limit includes any Unsub. Staffords from undergrad. So if you have more than 6.5k in Unsub. Staffords from undergrad you will hit that limit before graduation and have to max out Grad Plus loans or go private. You could easily start pharmacy school with 34.5k in Unsub. Staffords, which is the aggregate limit for undergrad. Some will hit 138.5k much sooner than others. At least the interest rate difference between an Unsub. Stafford and GPlus is narrower than in the past, at only 1% (for now).

For the sake of argument lets say it's more a 300K loan.

At least 300k. I just graduated from a school with an off-campus COA of $61,665 or 246k for the program. Touro's COA is $79,187 so that's $316,748. Not including tuition increases or any undergrad loan burden.

I am a member of the 300k+ Loan Club, but at least it includes my MBA and B.S. There's room for plenty more members though. The deep end of the pool is very deep, but the water's fine. Heck we were just tallying "who hit the highest score" late last year... http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ch-did-you-borrow.744463/page-3#post-17066750

 

[Silent Cool]

I am assuming you actually went to touro... I was just using it as an example bc i consider it a middle of the pack pharm school in CA.

I still think without IBR/PAYE and federal loans there is no way that a school can get away with charging this much for tuition. There is no expensive lab equipment and professors are getting paid below retail salaries... unacceptable.

Of course not. Before the federal government introduced student loans education cost practically nothing.