Another URM fact-oid

[TehDoc]

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Unfortunately, I don't see these forums being mature enough (from both sides of the argument) to keep this thread open very long...

Hehe.

 

[ufgrad00]

this doesn't mean anything; how do you know that the average stats for the 40% that DID get accepted wasn't lower than the national average? Just because a higher PERCENTAGE didn't get accepted does not mean that it isn't easier for URM's to get accepted ultimately. Everyone knows the bar is set lower for URM's; you are assuming that this bar couldn't be set lower for if it was, a higher percentage would be accepted, but this is far from necessary. Perhaps it is simply the case that a lower than average percentage of URM's can meet their subjective (albeit lowered) standard for admissions. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this data, and certainly not proclaim that URM status can't make up for lower than average stats. There is a reason the URM status exists to begin with and it would be foolish to deny that.

First off, writing in BIG RED letters is really annoying. 👎

Secondly, if you are only considering URM status by statisitics of the MCAT then whites could be considered URM because Asian matriculants have higher stats.

Thirdly, the MCAT is only one factor for admission. Essays, GPA, letters of rec, extracurriculars, and most importantly the interview, all contribute to the success of an applicant. So instead of coming to conclusions that some applicants are held to lower standards because of race, think about how to make yourself the most presentable applicant you can be.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

"Any Latino/a who shrugs off a subpar performance with a "Thank God for URM status" comment needs a wake-up call."

This is much more of a generalization than a comment on an individual. But still....

Well considering that URM consists of Blacks, Latino's, and Native Americans, she was just using Latino's as an example. She wasn't generalizing anything. She said "any", meaning those that do such a thing. She didn't say "All Latinos".

You have to be a troll, and I don't know why I'm feeding you 🙄

LizzyM has done so much for SDN, you really have to get your head out of your a**.

 

[Narmerguy]

^^ Is there a reason you wrote in bolded, enlarged, red font?

And I think we should just stop addressing Uniq, no one here agrees with him for obvious reasons.

And to address James' point, yeah, everyone knows that urm are at an advantage of a varying degree. The point of the thread is to display that the way to Med School isn't paved with gold for urm. Not that hard.

 

[87138]

This message is hidden because [b]Uniq[/b] is on your ignore list.

 

[bcat85]

this doesn't mean anything; how do you know that the average stats for the 40% that DID get accepted wasn't lower than the national average? Just because a higher PERCENTAGE didn't get accepted does not mean that it isn't easier for URM's to get accepted ultimately. Everyone knows the bar is set lower for URM's; you are assuming that this bar couldn't be set lower for if it was, a higher percentage would be accepted, but this is far from necessary. Perhaps it is simply the case that a lower than average percentage of URM's can meet their subjective (albeit lowered) standard for admissions. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this data, and certainly not proclaim that URM status can't make up for lower than average stats. There is a reason the URM status exists to begin with and it would be foolish to deny that.

oh, and factoid isn't hyphenated...

and red isn't the best color to use.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Nice try 🙄. Remember that Puerto Rico has a few med schools which will only accept applicants from Puerto Rico, so the competition to get into those institutions is greatly diminished. It's not a URM thing about Puerto Ricans its a residency factor.

And the stats of other latino/hispanic matriculants, they don't matter?

 

[LizzyM]

Yes, I read the post but where did the OP of that thread state his friend was latino anyway?

The OP did not state it but it was implied in saying that the friend did not speak any language other than English (leaving unsaid that a "true" member of that URM group would be bilingual).

It did get me to thinking about Latino/as who may be within the groups described as URM or not. AMCAS does not provide stats for URM or not-URM but it is very easy to take the total for all applicants who self-identify as Latino/a and see how they fare as a group.

Good pick-up to the poster who noted that residency restrictions for some schools drive down competition and deflate scores.

 

[Uniq]

I assure you that I am not a troll.

And I am also not the only one who was offended by the comment that LizzyM made.

And I don't see how merely trying to present my opinion warrants troll hunting and proposals to ignore what I say. I think this stems from the fact that there is some disagreement which I thought was okay. I guess I did not realize that dissenting opinions are frowned upon.

 

[ufgrad00]

And the stats of other latino/hispanic matriculants, they don't matter?

No they don't.

The fact that they differ by a point more or less in each section, is meaningless. Remember that admissions committees know that the difference between a 33 and a 30 could be as small as 3 questions in the whole exam. Also, one could make the assertion that latino/hispanics interview better than whites. Anyways, a good MCAT alone doesn't entitle you to anything, just like being from a particular race doesn't entitle you to admission.

 

[HumidBeing]

I think the big message to take away from the original post is that no matter what a person's status, or perceived advantage that he may believe he has, it is important to not relax and depend on that alone to get to reach that goal.

If a goal is important, a person needs to put his own best efforts toward reaching it, and do all he can to make it into a reality.

 

[flaahless]

LizzyM = Chuuch.

And word to ufgrad. Adcoms aren't stupid. They can spot a rotten apple, urm or not.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I am also not the only one who was a bit offended by the comment that LizzyM made.

And I don't see how merely trying to present my opinion warrants troll hunting and proposals to ignore what I say. I think this stems from the fact that there is some disagreement which I thought was okay. I guess I did not realize that dissenting opinions are frowned upon.

In a forum full of Type A personalities, hypersensitivity to just about anything will get you torn apart pretty quickly. Being hypersensitive on behalf of others will get you torn apart faster. On the bright side, I see a promising career as a PTA parent in your future. "You mean to tell me that the school doesn't provide complimentary kevlar and bubble wrap for our children? They might chip a nail! Rabble rabble rabble rabble!"

 

[frikarika]

Dude, it was an example of why the individual's thinking about URM status in general is flawed, based on a specific URM statistic. But seriously, if you want to believe that LizzyM is inciting racially-motivated angst against Latinos in the application process by saying that all Latinos applying to medical school think their Latin heritage compensates for their supposedly racially universal subpar stats, go ahead. Its so ridiculous to read her statement that way, far be it from me to attempt to talk you out of it.

lol, no where in my comments did I say she was trying to incite racially motivated angst, that was the other poster "Uniq". I know Lizzy M is a respected ADCOM around here, and in no way would I ever say she is racist. I was just a little caught off guard by her comment "Any Latino/a who shrugs off a subpar performance with a "Thank God for URM status" comment needs a wake-up call" . Any person, whether they are black, brown, yellow, white, or red who thinks they are a shoe in becuase of their ethnicity is doomed to fail.

 

[LizzyM]

Any person, whether they are black, brown, yellow, white, or red who thinks they are a shoe in because of their ethnicity is doomed to fail.

Well, perhaps not doomed to fail but certainly in need of a wake-up call.

 

[Uniq]

I think the big message to take away from the original post is that no matter what a person's status, or perceived advantage that he may believe he has, it is important to not relax and depend on that alone to get to reach that goal.

If a goal is important, a person needs to put his own best efforts toward reaching it, and do all he can to make it into a reality.

I would have to agree with this. LizzyM should have said something more along these lines. But that would have been stating the obvious, right? Well, is it obvious for people in general and not obvious for Latinos in particular? Do "URM" SDNers need to be taken aside and told that they had better not try to pull a fast one with the admissions people? I think not, and I think it is demeaning that it was implied with this thread. The fact that LizzyM started a whole thread, based on a deleted thread, and says this anyway reaks of opportunistic racism.

But I am not calling LizzyM a flat out racist, and I am not suggesting that it was his/her intent to come off as such. I just don't think it is helpful to call out "URM" SDNers and disrespectfully admonish them with a tone that has an underlying current of typical, racial stereotypes. "URMs" come here to get information too. It is unfortunate that, to get to it, they first have to sort through an onslaught of bitter posts telling them what's wrong with them and that they need to "wake up." And imho, it is just offensive that rather than standing against it or at least tolerating those who do, many posters find ways to ignore, dismiss (i.e "this guy must be a troll"), rationalize or even sympathize with it.

 

[ufgrad00]

I would have to agree with this. LizzyM should have said something more along these lines. But that would have been stating the obvious, right? Well, is it obvious for people in general and not obvious for Latinos in particular? Do "URM" SDNers need to be taken aside and told that they had better not try to pull a fast one with the admissions people? I think not, and I think it is demeaning that it was implied with this thread. The fact that LizzyM started a whole thread, based on a deleted thread, and says this anyway reaks of opportunistic racism.

I am not calling LizzyM a flat out racist, and I am not suggesting that it was his/her intent to come off as such. I just don't think it is helpful to call out "URM" SDNers and disrespectfully admonish them with a tone that has an underlying current of typical, racial stereotypes.

Dude, just stop it. Nothing she presented was racist, and if anyone has been opportunistic it has been you. So please, stop the race-baiting.

 

[LizzyM]

So while there can be well deserved benefits for many people, I'm sure many of you know people under the URM status who are not "culturally" or economically URM, if that makes sense (not meant to generalize in any way).

Reason I ask is because I have a friend who occasionally excuses some less than satisfactory work with "oh well, at least I am URM." He is fluent only in English, born in the U.S., and knows little about his racial background. He's a good friend of mine obviously but he does not seem to associate himself much with his cultural background (not that he has to).

Now here's the first post of the thread that was closed (not deleted, just closed) earlier today that started me thinking. I would have posted to that thread but by the time I put together my stats, the thread had been closed.

I hope that the OP of that thread, and anyone with close friends who take this attitude, will look at the facts and realize that there is no free pass in this process. Also, reading that OP, I hope that you can see where it gave the impression of a self-indentifying URM who is Latino.

 

[whoisthedrizzle]

URM hater: URM's get in with lower stats. It's not fair.

URM: You should work harder and you wouldn't have to worry about it.

Mod: Lets keep this civil.

URM hater: URM's make bad doctors.

Mod: Thread closed.

 

[Uniq]

Now here's the first post of the thread that was closed (not deleted, just closed) earlier today that started me thinking. I would have posted to that thread but by the time I put together my stats, the thread had been closed.

I hope that the OP of that thread, and anyone with close friends who take this attitude, will look at the facts and realize that there is no free pass in this process. Also, reading that OP, I hope that you can see where it gave the impression of a self-indentifying URM who is Latino.

LizzyM, I appreciate this sleight-of-hand modification/explanation/retraction of your original statement.

 

[pianola]

"Any Latino/a who shrugs off a subpar performance with a "Thank God for URM status" comment needs a wake-up call."

Uniq, I, for on don't think you're a troll. But I do think you seriously misunderstood LizzyM's post. I could see why you might think so if you took the quote alone in isolation. But you have to look at the context.

On SDN, there is clearly a huge backlash against "URMs" who "get in with lower scores." LizzyM's comments, if anything, were of an effort to get others to rethink the "advantage" of being a URM.

If I construe her thoughts correctly, she is indicating that sensible Latino/latinas (of which there are presumably many) will not just rely on URM status alone. That in fact, Latino/latinas are held to very high standards as are non-URMs. She was trying to emphasize that URMs are held accountable just as non-URMs are and that there is no reason to assume "it's SOO much better to be a URM" as many SDNers would tell you.

LizzyM was trying to emphasize that there is no unfair advantage to being latino/latina -- if anything, quite the contrary.

I hope this helps a little bit. Please PM me if you wish.

 

[LizzyM]

URM hater: URM's get in with lower stats. It's not fair.

URM: You should work harder and you wouldn't have to worry about it.

Mod: Lets keep this civil.

URM hater: URM's make bad doctors.

Mod: Thread closed.

On 9-22-06 I started a thread about a URM factoid. It has had 211 posts and 6,906 views as of today. It is still open. Let's see if we can do as well as the folks who were here discussing a similar topic almost 2 years ago.

 

[Uniq]

Uniq, I, for on don't think you're a troll. But I do think you seriously misunderstood LizzyM's post. I could see why you might think so if you took the quote alone in isolation. But you have to look at the context.

On SDN, there is clearly a huge backlash against "URMs" who "get in with lower scores." LizzyM's comments, if anything, were of an effort to get others to rethink the "advantage" of being a URM.

If I construe her thoughts correctly, she is indicating that sensible Latino/latinas (of which there are presumably many) will not just rely on URM status alone. That in fact, Latino/latinas are held to very high standards as are non-URMs. She was trying to emphasize that URMs are held accountable just as non-URMs are and that there is no reason to assume "it's SOO much better to be a URM" as many SDNers would tell you.

LizzyM was trying to emphasize that there is no unfair advantage to being latino/latina -- if anything, quite the contrary.

I hope this helps a little bit. Please PM me if you wish.

I understand what you are saying, but if this was the case, then why was the comment directed to Latinos in a way that hinted at demeaning stereotypes, as if they were being scolded and told to "get their acts together?" It should have been directed to those comprising the backlash against "URMs"

 

[LucidSplash]

I understand what you are saying, but if this was the case, then why was the comment directed to Latinos in a way that hinted at demeaning stereotypes, as if they were being scolded? It should have been directed to those comprising the backlash against "URMs"

Because LizzyM > 4,300 posts = well-established personality and voice on SDN and she doesn't need to spell it out to have established SDN members know where she's coming from and what she's getting at.

 

[Uniq]

On 9-22-06 I started a thread about a URM factoid. It has had 211 posts and 6,906 views as of today. It is still open. Let's see if we can do as well as the folks who were here discussing a similar topic almost 2 years ago.

Well, race in America is hardly a dead topic.

 

[pianola]

I understand what you are saying, but if this was the case, then why was the comment directed to Latinos in a way that hinted at demeaning stereotypes, as if they were being scolded? It should have been directed to those comprising the backlash against "URMs"

Yeah, see that's the problem with the quote. I really don't think it WAS directed at Latino/latinas as in a "Latinos BEWARE" manner. I honestly don't even think the sentiment was directed at latino/latinas at all; rather at the group of non-URMs who are sitting around complaining about their bad luck.

Nuances of tone are very difficult to interpret over the internet -- I've gotten in trouble more than once, myself. I do understand why you might see it as offensive; but again you do have to consider the context in which it was written.

Again, I think it was more of a general observation phrased in an (apparently) unfortunate way.

Anyway, ok, I'll just let this drop as I REALLY don't wish to put words in LizzyM's mouth.

 

[HumidBeing]

The topic of who meant what by what has already gotten more play than it needed in this thread. Time to drop that and not bring bring those misunderstandings back up in this thread.

If you have civil, non-accusatory comments or questions on factoids, address those, and confine the discussion to that.

 

[Uniq]

Again, I think it was more of a general observation phrased in an (apparently) unfortunate way.

I agree.

 

[Uniq]

Simple mentioning URM/Latino/African American/etc. is not pulling a race card.

Of course. But the original statement was more than a mere mention.

 

[ButImLETired]

Hmmm I'm going to bring back the focus of the discussion on the issue of URM's themselves, and say something that I've been thinking about all day.

I'd like to preface this by saying that I am going to be considered URM (I'm latina) at some schools- not all, because I'm South American.

The issue of URM's getting "preference" reminds me of when I was applying to college. My parents don't have a super-high level of education- my father dropped out of college after a year, and my mom got her B.A. but she didn't get to study what she'd wanted because my grandparents deemed it "unladylike". My sisters and I therefore had a lot of pressure to succeed, and that, to my parents, meant going to well-known colleges. My oldest sister ended up at MIT, while my middle sister ended up at Columbia. I was supposed to go to Princeton- didn't happen, mainly because of a family tragedy that forced us to move to the US, where I didn't speak a word of English. My first year at a college prep high school was not great, grades-wise, because I had had literally two months to learn enough English to, you know, ace Shakespeare. By senior year, though, I was pretty fluent, and I felt I deserved to finally get into a great college and make my mom happy. I had done EVERYTHING right after my freshman year- gotten the A's, joined the clubs, and I was super-involved in the arts. I was at school almost all day every day. My year, two kids got into Princeton: one had cheated on his SAT's but daddy had bailed him out by buying Princeton some golf course, and the other was an athlete.

That made me SO angry. Surely I could do nothing about the fact that I required financial aid, but an athlete?? The kid wasn't all that smart, he was just a fast runner. We had a similar GPA, but I felt I had more of a right to go to a school like Princeton than he did- sure, you can make the argument that he was really committed to the sport, but my commitment to arts stuff and literary magazines (which I'd joined to practice my English) was equally time-consuming.

Sorry for the never-ending post, but my point is, admissions are a crapshoot, and to those that are rejected, they are automatically unfair. Is it any fairer that athletes are considered more highly by colleges than artists, given the same time commitment? What makes people angry is that we can't control our own outcome, not really. We can get the best grades we can, and work ourselves to the bone, and in the end, our future is up to nameless people who read our applications and decide whether we're worthy. It sucks, but it is as true for non-URM's as it is for URM's. A white guy with a 3.0 gets in and everyone congratulates him for his impeccable EC's, clearly superior interview skills, and dumb luck. The same guy says he's a URM and I'll bet he gets a lot of bitter people saying he got in just cause he's URM. Come on, people, get over yourselves! Stop blaming the system and start wondering what it is about you that made AdComs throw your file out. Chances are, it's not cause you're white. And chances are, if you got a 3.2 from a really difficult school while supporting yourself, have shown incredible passion for medicine and have an "interest factor", your spot won't be taken by a URM who sat on his laurels all through college- not that I even know any.

Ok, I'm done rambling. Sorry about that. I guess I just needed to get it all out.

 

[requeim]

All LizzyM is saying is this: If you're an URM, so be it. However if that's the only thing you're application has going for it, you're not getting into medical school. She is not stirring up the pot, flinging poo, or antagonizing anyone. Simple mentioning URM/Latino/African American/etc. is not pulling a race card.

i can understand where the previous posters were coming from about how it's directed only towards latinos/as but it applies to all people who think that being a URM gives them a "free ride to medical school" card.

 

[Uniq]

Paraphrased: Just because you have something that "helps" your application, you can't shrug the rest of the application off because you will sink fast. The example was Latinos/as. You could enter Caucasians/African Americans/Asians/etc.

There is no racism in this post, inherent or implied.

There are clearly implied racial stereotypes here that you are simply glossing over. The original statement was clearly in reference to "URMs."

 

[MilkmanAl]

You should really see a cardiologist, man. Your heart is bleeding out of control.

 

[jult24er]

LizzyM = Chuuch.

And word to ufgrad. Adcoms aren't stupid. They can spot a rotten apple, urm or not.

Am I a rotten apple?

 

[TehDoc]

Am I a rotten apple?

Yes.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

No they don't.

The fact that they differ by a point more or less in each section, is meaningless. Remember that admissions committees know that the difference between a 33 and a 30 could be as small as 3 questions in the whole exam. Also, one could make the assertion that latino/hispanics interview better than whites. Anyways, a good MCAT alone doesn't entitle you to anything, just like being from a particular race doesn't entitle you to admission.

The Gap is compensated for by their URM status. You can say it is not, but it was last year and it'll be the same way every year. That's the point of the URM status, to help people who otherwise might not get into medical school, get into medical school.

 

[Depakote]

The Gap is compensated for by their URM status. You can say it is not, but it was last year and it'll be the same way every year. That's the point of the URM status, to help people who otherwise might not get into medical school, get into medical school.

Actually, the point of Under Represented Minority status is not geared towards the applicant, it is geared towards the community the URM student comes from.

People are more likely to seek healthcare services from doctors that look like them, have lived in their community and understand what they're going through. Under Represented Minorities in medicine are groups that do not have physicians in sufficient quantities from those ethnic backgrounds to serve the community.

There are so many slots in medical school classes designated for each underserved ethnic group. Every one of them is competing against each other and only the most competitive will get in, just like admissions for non-URM seats.



I have little hope that this thread can remain a civil discussion among adults.

This thread will be closed if it continues to deteriorate.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Actually, the point of Under Represented Minority status is not geared towards the applicant, it is geared towards the community the URM student comes from.

People are more likely to seek healthcare services from doctors that look like them, have lived in their community and understand what they're going through. Under Represented Minorities in medicine are groups that do not have physicians in sufficient quantities from those ethnic backgrounds to serve the community.

There are so many slots in medical school classes designated for each underserved ethnic group. Every one of them is competing against each other and only the most competitive will get in, just like admissions for non-URM seats.



I have little hope that this thread can remain a civil discussion among adults.

This thread will be closed if it continues to deteriorate.

And URM fills that gap that would otherwise prevent them from getting into medical school and being able to serve their people. They compete for their own slots, but those slots are not as competitive as the slots for non-URM's, just look at the stats. So, URM's get into schools with MCATS/GPA's that are sub-par when compared to non-URMs.

It's all in the stats, I don't see why anybody would disagree with the facts. URM status is a big help for those who qualify, that's why we have it.

 

[Narmerguy]

There are clearly implied racial stereotypes here that you are simply glossing over. The original statement was clearly in reference to "URMs."

Dude, I'm sorry, but Uniq just shut up. Really. If you're so bothered add LizzyM to your ignore as well and drop it. Enough of this stupidity. Sorry Humid but this is just too ridiculous to watch.

 

[udlax16]

And URM fills that gap that would otherwise prevent them from getting into medical school and being able to serve their people. They compete for their own slots, but those slots are not as competitive as the slots for non-URM's, just look at the stats. So, URM's get into schools with MCATS/GPA's that are sub-par when compared to non-URMs.

It's all in the stats, I don't see why anybody would disagree with the facts. URM status is a big help for those who qualify, that's why we have it.

I understand where your coming from but at the same time I hear a lot on SDN that it is detrimental for some people to put on their app that they are URM. The idea of representing the undeserved communities is great but i feel many people have the mindset that it is only used as a way to get ahead and thats wrong.

 

[Uniq]

Dude, I'm sorry, but Uniq just shut up. Really. If you're so bothered add LizzyM to your ignore as well and drop it. Enough of this stupidity. Sorry Humid but this is just too ridiculous to watch.

Is this to say that you agree with Humid's statement?

 

[HumidBeing]

This thread offered an excellent opportunity to discuss admission facts with a highly knowledgeable and experienced member.

Unfortunately, members have refused to heed the repeated interventions and warnings. Thus, another opportunity has been derailed and met its end.

This thread is closed to further discussion. Please do not start new threads in an attempt to continue.