Another way of looking at decreasing Doc salaries.

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kduarte1

kduarte1

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Generally everyone on SDN thinks that doctors salaries have significantly decreased and Docs are not well off anymore. Personally I don't believe either and heres why

It is documented that Docs have been losing out on inflation for the past decade. This may be true but no one thought to ever look at it this way. Consider this, you have a average american making 50,000, and you have a GI doc making 300K. One year passes and 3% inflation kicks in. The average american gets a pay raise to 51,500. An increase of 1500. To keep up with inflation the doctor would need an increase of 9000. Its very hard to justify giving someone a 9K raise every year. The doc will prolly get a 5K raise and lose out to inflation, but he still gets more of a raise then the average american. Doctors and other high paying jobs will never keep up with inflation, their incomes would get too ridiculously high if they did.
 
kduarte1 said:
The doc will prolly get a 5K raise and lose out to inflation, but he still gets more of a raise then the average american. Doctors and other high paying jobs will never keep up with inflation, their incomes would get too ridiculously high if they did.
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You don't really understand what inflation is, do you?
 
Lol....

Its purchasing power.....300,000 dollars today will buy more than what 300,000 dollars will next year.

He may get more of a raise atleast monetarily, but if this goes on for 20 years then a GI doctors purchasing power will have fallen dramatically, probably only able to purchase 50% or less (too lazy to do the calculations) of what he originally was able to purchase
 
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The overall price level of all goods in countries increase when there is inflation. Inflation is desirable at low, manageable levels. If salaries don't keep up with inflation, then there is effectively a net pay cut because the purchasing power of your salary is lower than a year prior. Absolute numbers don't matter in this discussion.

A better argument would be that the average income in the US went down during the Bush years, adjusted for inflation -- not just those of physicians. In other words, everyone except the nation's wealthiest were significantly worse off under Bush economically ... but that seems obvious now, doesn't it?
 
Here comes a bitchin' analogy:

So there are two brothers, Bill - a high school teacher, and Dr. Bob - a doctor. Like any good red-blooded American good ol' boys, Bill and Dr. Bob really love beer*. So, they both use all of their salaries to buy beer. Bill makes $50,000 and buys 50,000 beers, while Dr. Bob makes $200,000 and buys 200,000 beers. Next year, because of global economic factors, the value of the dollar decreases, and now beers cost $1.05 each instead of $1.00 (5% inflation). Boo. Now, Bill can only buy 47,619 beers, and Dr. Bob can only buy 190,476. Bill's salary is pegged to inflation, so it goes up to $52,500 and he can buy 50,000 beers again. Dr. Bob's salary only goes up $5,000 - but hey, that's twice the raise his brother got. Now, Dr. Bob can buy 195,238 beers. While Bill gets just as drunk this year as last year, poor Dr. Bob has taken a 5,000 beer pay cut 🙁🙁🙁.

(*note: 'beer' is the standard unit of exchange in economics according to me)
 
point proven thank you starfishprime
 
starfishprime said:
Here comes a bitchin' analogy:

So there are two brothers, Bill - a high school teacher, and Dr. Bob - a doctor. Like any good red-blooded American good ol' boys, Bill and Dr. Bob really love beer*. So, they both use all of their salaries to buy beer. Bill makes $50,000 and buys 50,000 beers, while Dr. Bob makes $200,000 and buys 200,000 beers. Next year, because of global economic factors, the value of the dollar decreases, and now beers cost $1.05 each instead of $1.00 (5% inflation). Boo. Now, Bill can only buy 47,619 beers, and Dr. Bob can only buy 190,476. Bill's salary is pegged to inflation, so it goes up to $52,500 and he can buy 50,000 beers again. Dr. Bob's salary only goes up $5,000 - but hey, that's twice the raise his brother got. Now, Dr. Bob can buy 195,238 beers. While Bill gets just as drunk this year as last year, poor Dr. Bob has taken a 5,000 beer pay cut 🙁🙁🙁.

(*note: 'beer' is the standard unit of exchange in economics according to me)
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That is the saddest story I have ever heard.
 
starfishprime said:
Here comes a bitchin' analogy:

So there are two brothers, Bill - a high school teacher, and Dr. Bob - a doctor. Like any good red-blooded American good ol' boys, Bill and Dr. Bob really love beer*. So, they both use all of their salaries to buy beer. Bill makes $50,000 and buys 50,000 beers, while Dr. Bob makes $200,000 and buys 200,000 beers. Next year, because of global economic factors, the value of the dollar decreases, and now beers cost $1.05 each instead of $1.00 (5% inflation). Boo. Now, Bill can only buy 47,619 beers, and Dr. Bob can only buy 190,476. Bill's salary is pegged to inflation, so it goes up to $52,500 and he can buy 50,000 beers again. Dr. Bob's salary only goes up $5,000 - but hey, that's twice the raise his brother got. Now, Dr. Bob can buy 195,238 beers. While Bill gets just as drunk this year as last year, poor Dr. Bob has taken a 5,000 beer pay cut 🙁🙁🙁.

(*note: 'beer' is the standard unit of exchange in economics according to me)
Click to expand...
hahaha...i really like this👍
 
starfishprime said:
Here comes a bitchin' analogy:

So there are two brothers, Bill - a high school teacher, and Dr. Bob - a doctor. Like any good red-blooded American good ol' boys, Bill and Dr. Bob really love beer*. So, they both use all of their salaries to buy beer. Bill makes $50,000 and buys 50,000 beers, while Dr. Bob makes $200,000 and buys 200,000 beers. Next year, because of global economic factors, the value of the dollar decreases, and now beers cost $1.05 each instead of $1.00 (5% inflation). Boo. Now, Bill can only buy 47,619 beers, and Dr. Bob can only buy 190,476. Bill's salary is pegged to inflation, so it goes up to $52,500 and he can buy 50,000 beers again. Dr. Bob's salary only goes up $5,000 - but hey, that's twice the raise his brother got. Now, Dr. Bob can buy 195,238 beers. While Bill gets just as drunk this year as last year, poor Dr. Bob has taken a 5,000 beer pay cut 🙁🙁🙁.

(*note: 'beer' is the standard unit of exchange in economics according to me)
Click to expand...


:laugh: awesome post!👍
 
Whats worse is that many of the doctors ive talked to actually had a decrease in salary over the past few years....250K to 230K, compound that with inflation and they have taken a pretty substantial hit.
 
starfishprime said:
Anytime for a willing student.
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Post the essay again 😀

Since we're talking about beer heres another story

Here is a short story for you. It is not, in any form or fashion, a book. Enjoy:

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ‘Since you are all such good customers, he said, ‘I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

‘I only got a dollar out of the $20,'declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,' but he got $10!'

‘Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. ‘I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!'

‘That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. ‘Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'

‘Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
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i know, but it was only a matter of time before i wandered in here.
 
Using your example before with 3% inflation and the doctor getting a 1.5% increase each year. Rough numbers here. With 3% inflation, the dollar halves in value in about 25 years. The doctor's salary in that time ends up at about 1.4 times his starting salary. This means the doctor is only making about 70% of his starting salary after 20 years, a pretty large pay cut considering the 25 years of experience he has gained in that time. In other words, over 25 years, the physician will go from making 300K to 210K (in present day dollars), a 90K dollar pay cut.
 
starfishprime said:
It's an even sadder reality for thousands of alcoholic professionals facing dwindling compensation.
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indeed, good thing we'll be doctors, which one of you wants to write me some prescriptions for vicodin
 
Great thread. I'm definitely going to save that story starfishprime.

niranjan162 said:
indeed, good thing we'll be doctors, which one of you wants to write me some prescriptions for vicodin
Click to expand...
Vicodin and alcohol: a winning combination 👍
 
Add in Obama's growing marginal tax rate on the "rich" and physician compensation takes another hit...at the same time, the cost of attending and financing a medical education is rising much faster than the rate of inflation...thus people entering med school today face significant economic hurdles in the future.
 
ApoK said:
...
A better argument would be that the average income in the US went down during the Bush years, adjusted for inflation -- not just those of physicians. In other words, everyone except the nation's wealthiest were significantly worse off under Bush economically ... but that seems obvious now, doesn't it?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure pegging a higher end profession to the "average" is the right analysis -- you peg it to the other professions. Thus it would only be a better argument if every profession lost ground against inflation, which isn't true. Doctors lost ground against inflation over the past decade. Most of the other professions gained against inflation over that past decade. So medicine lost ground. And when you add to that fact the fact that tuition debt increased at least as fast, if not faster than inflation, you can see that this generation of docs is earning substantially less than prior generations. You will not duplicate the lifestyle of the doctors you know from the prior generation. Not that that should be your driving force, but it's something folks should be aware of. The very nice lifestyle of your father/uncle/grandfather will not be attainable through the same path. And that's even before factoring in the current economy or any changes coming from healthcare reform.
 
In regards to the little "how our tax system works" story.

It is complete bullcrap. You would need to change the story to the 10 guys go out and have beers but the 10th man drinks half the beer.

In fact, the top 10% of wage earners take in almost 50% of all income... and the top 300k take in more than the bottom 150million.

Rush Limbaugh says that the top 50% of wage earners pay 96% of the income taxes. That is true... but you know what? The bottom 50% is in no shape to pay income taxes. The bottom 50% takes in 13% of the income.

I don't have time to look up the historical data but I have seen it before. The top 10% are paying an increasing portion of income tax over time... but that pace is nothing compared to how quickly the 10% are increasing their share of income. Since 1980 the gap between the top 10% and the bottom 90% has doubled. Just keep that in mind.
 
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VanBrown said:
In regards to the little "how our tax system works" story.

It is complete bullcrap. You would need to change the story to the 10 guys go out and have beers but the 10th man drinks half the beer.

In fact, the top 10% of wage earners take in almost 50% of all income... and the top 300k take in more than the bottom 150million.

Rush Limbaugh says that the top 50% of wage earners pay 96% of the income taxes. That is true... but you know what? The bottom 50% is in no shape to pay income taxes. The bottom 50% takes in 13% of the income.

I don't have time to look up the historical data but I have seen it before. The top 10% are paying an increasing portion of income tax over time... but that pace is nothing compared to how quickly the 10% are increasing their share of income. Since 1980 the gap between the top 10% and the bottom 90% has doubled. Just keep that in mind.
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What does that matter? They earned it. Almost all of them went to public schools, so dont pull that equalness of opportunity bull crap neither

And besides, drink half the beer??? where the heck does that come from. Substitute beer for roads or public education, does the richest man use them more than the others?
 
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Don't you people realize that 20% of all people in a profession earn 80% of all of the money in their profession? It does not matter if it is movie theaters, a surgeon, a professional athlete, etc.
 
ChubbyChaser said:
What does that matter? They earned it. Almost all of them went to public schools, so dont pull that equalness of opportunity bull crap neither

And besides, drink half the beer??? where the heck does that come from. Substitute beer for roads or public education, does the richest man use them more than the others?
Click to expand...

Agreed.

In regards to the little "how our tax system works" story.

It is complete bullcrap. You would need to change the story to the 10 guys go out and have beers but the 10th man drinks half the beer.

In fact, the top 10% of wage earners take in almost 50% of all income... and the top 300k take in more than the bottom 150million.

Rush Limbaugh says that the top 50% of wage earners pay 96% of the income taxes. That is true... but you know what? The bottom 50% is in no shape to pay income taxes. The bottom 50% takes in 13% of the income.

I don't have time to look up the historical data but I have seen it before. The top 10% are paying an increasing portion of income tax over time... but that pace is nothing compared to how quickly the 10% are increasing their share of income. Since 1980 the gap between the top 10% and the bottom 90% has doubled. Just keep that in mind.
Click to expand...

Propensity to increase purchasing power increases as purchasing power increases. In other words, it is easier to gain $1000 for someone who has $1,000,000 than it is for someone who only has $1000. However, doubling purchasing power for both parties may be equally as difficult, because while the individual with $1000 only needs to gain another $1000, the other needs to gain $1,000,000. Thus, their relative propensities to gain purchasing power may be the same. Keep that in mind.
 
ChubbyChaser said:
What does that matter? They earned it. Almost all of them went to public schools, so dont pull that equalness of opportunity bull crap neither

And besides, drink half the beer??? where the heck does that come from. Substitute beer for roads or public education, does the richest man use them more than the others?
Click to expand...


I would contest that the vast majority of those people went neither to a public secondary school nor a public university. And who said they earned it? Did they earn it by having political influence that creates a system that promotes the growing gap between the rich and the poor? Not every multi-millionaire got there because they worked hard and truly earned it... in fact a lot of them got there by exploiting other people (Phil Knight) or by unethical/illegal business practices (Bill Gates). Do you think all of the CEOs of the American car companies deserve to make the money they do while running businesses that have caused a huge harm to our country? Do you think that the CEO, CFO, COO, etc of the huge lending companies (Fannie/Freddie) deserve to make the money they do? Do the ENRON people deserve what they got?


I have no pity for anyone who makes over 100k a year. If you have problems living on that then you don't deserve any respect.
 
ChubbyChaser said:
What does that matter? They earned it. Almost all of them went to public schools, so dont pull that equalness of opportunity bull crap neither

And besides, drink half the beer??? where the heck does that come from. Substitute beer for roads or public education, does the richest man use them more than the others?
Click to expand...

Amen
 
VanBrown said:
I would contest that the vast majority of those people went neither to a public secondary school nor a public university. And who said they earned it? Did they earn it by having political influence that creates a system that promotes the growing gap between the rich and the poor? Not every multi-millionaire got there because they worked hard and truly earned it... in fact a lot of them got there by exploiting other people (Phil Knight) or by unethical/illegal business practices (Bill Gates). Do you think all of the CEOs of the American car companies deserve to make the money they do while running businesses that have caused a huge harm to our country? Do you think that the CEO, CFO, COO, etc of the huge lending companies (Fannie/Freddie) deserve to make the money they do? Do the ENRON people deserve what they got?


I have no pity for anyone who makes over 100k a year. If you have problems living on that then you don't deserve any respect.
Click to expand...

Your original post was talking about the top 10% of money earners, not the top 1% or less. Do you think all of the top 10% got there by exploiting others or through illegal business practices? No, and I would contend that very very few of them did.

As far as public schools, I have no numbers on what percent of the top 10% of money earners went to one ( I would think most considering many doctors and lawyers are in the top 10% and schools like UCLA, U mich, UNC churn those out like its there jobs).

I have no pity on any man that is not willing to help themselves. If you cant deal with that, you deserve no respect.
 
Oh yea I forgot that poor people choose to be poor... obviously every single person born has the opportunity and ability to become a doctor, lawyer, or president. It is just that lame saying that people tell kids. The truth is that not everyone can be a doctor... in fact very, very few people can be. The truth is that the vast majority of Americans are good, hard working people who are struggling right now just to make ends meet, to keep their homes, to keep their jobs.

And most public schools receive quite a bit of money from both state and federal sources and if you are an in-state medical student the majority of your tuition is subsidized by the state (for a lot of public schools). And the thought that all public schools are equal is laughable.

Empathy and compassion. Where did it go?
 
VanBrown said:
Oh yea I forgot that poor people choose to be poor... obviously every single person born has the opportunity and ability to become a doctor, lawyer, or president. It is just that lame saying that people tell kids. The truth is that not everyone can be a doctor... in fact very, very few people can be. The truth is that the vast majority of Americans are good, hard working people who are struggling right now just to make ends meet, to keep their homes, to keep their jobs.

And most public schools receive quite a bit of money from both state and federal sources and if you are an in-state medical student the majority of your tuition is subsidized by the state (for a lot of public schools). And the thought that all public schools are equal is laughable.

Empathy and compassion. Where did it go?
Click to expand...

Empathy and compassion?? Just because I dont believe the government should punish the wealthy for being wealthy and successful, does not mean I dont have compassion. I believe those down on their luck should rely on charity not the government.

Exactly, public schools are subsidized by the state. This would not be possible without the taxes contributed by the top 10%, so once again the wealthy are helping out their more poor fellow man. To contend that the wealthy are all cold-hearted beings is just laughable.

And no, not every person can become a doctor or lawyer, but every person is given opportunities to improve themselves through education, hardwork, etc.
 
VanBrown said:
I would contest that the vast majority of those people went neither to a public secondary school nor a public university.
Click to expand...

Wait I'm confused... so the rich pay for the beer that the others drink, but instead buys and drinks wine on the side? How is that bad for the other beer drinkers?
 
guestdoc said:
Wait I'm confused... so the rich pay for the beer that the others drink, but instead buys and drinks wine on the side? How is that bad for the other beer drinkers?
Click to expand...
hahaha!!

I wish i was good with analogies.
 
I am not trying to demonize the top 10% but to show that they don't need anyone to defend them.

You act like poor people are having a lot of fun and living it up because they don't pay income taxes and that rich people are down on their luck and struggling to make ends meet because they pay a high percentage of taxes.

It is true that it might not seem fair that "rich" people pay more in taxes but it is also true that it is unfair to tax people that can't afford to be taxed. And I would rather rich people be inconvenienced than have poor people be evicted from their homes just so that we can say that things are "fair." Life isn't fair... just ask one of the millions of Americans that are struggling to make their mortgage payments or can't afford health insurance.
 
guestdoc said:
Wait I'm confused... so the rich pay for the beer that the others drink, but instead buys and drinks wine on the side? How is that bad for the other beer drinkers?
Click to expand...


There is no wine... only carbonated grape juice. Sorry to disappoint.
 
VanBrown said:
I am not trying to demonize the top 10% but to show that they don't need anyone to defend them.

You act like poor people are having a lot of fun and living it up because they don't pay income taxes and that rich people are down on their luck and struggling to make ends meet because they pay a high percentage of taxes.

It is true that it might not seem fair that "rich" people pay more in taxes but it is also true that it is unfair to tax people that can't afford to be taxed. And I would rather rich people be inconvenienced than have poor people be evicted from their homes just so that we can say that things are "fair." Life isn't fair... just ask one of the millions of Americans that are struggling to make their mortgage payments or can't afford health insurance.
Click to expand...
How am I acting like they are having lots of fun? Dont get me started on the housing fiasco, if we wouldnt have had a president pushing for every american to own a home it wouldnt have happened. Whatever happened to living within your means?? Dont take out a loan or buy a house you cant afford, period. That is very fair.
 
VanBrown said:
I am not trying to demonize the top 10% but to show that they don't need anyone to defend them.

You act like poor people are having a lot of fun and living it up because they don't pay income taxes and that rich people are down on their luck and struggling to make ends meet because they pay a high percentage of taxes.

It is true that it might not seem fair that "rich" people pay more in taxes but it is also true that it is unfair to tax people that can't afford to be taxed. And I would rather rich people be inconvenienced than have poor people be evicted from their homes just so that we can say that things are "fair." Life isn't fair... just ask one of the millions of Americans that are struggling to make their mortgage payments or can't afford health insurance.
Click to expand...

I dont think your realize how big the top 10% is. Some of the people in this group are certainly not rich. There are probably some people in that group who make under 100k.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/27/magazines/fortune/obama_budget_tax.fortune/index.htm

Heres an article for you to read.

You talk about how its unfair to tax people in lower income brackets, but then say that life isnt fair when it comes to taxing the rich. Your supporting opposing view points.

The housing bubble was created by two things, greed and stupidity. Greed on the part of the lender and stupidity on the part of the people taking these loans.

I suppose that the progressive income taxes are the most fair thing to be done. But after seeing how the government has handled the money thus far, I have no faith in them to manage it wisely.

Also its unfathomable to be raising taxes at all, on anyone, in a recession. We need to be putting money into the hands of the people instead of letting the government sink it into failing companies.

Also you may have some luck getting into a professional job, but only hard work gets you through professional schools, this can be said doubly for medicine. People dont get the privilege of being a doctor they earn it.
 
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