Another way of looking at decreasing Doc salaries.

[niranjan162]

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haha nice analogy. but what about the part where bill the high school teacher gets laid off due to statewide budget cuts and has to go without beer for a full year? all while his brother Dr. Bob has the most secure job in america

Healthcare isnt bulletproof like people think. Part of the job security is not that you never get fired, but you have an easier time finding another job. Hospitals are cutting pay, hours, and jobs though.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

y dont you tell me y they wouldnt?

I-banking's days are going to be pretty hard due to the recession. Many are being laid off and about about 10,000 from last year(expect that number to multiply by 10 by December). Yes you can still make money but you need connections. It is not like medicine in where you work hard and have a 3.8GPA and a 36Mcat with good extra circulars means your in. If you don't graduate from the top business schools and graduate near the top 10% of your class and kiss ass from powerful people to get into Morgan Stanley-Dean Witter, Merrill Lynch, Salomon-Smith-Barney, and Goldman Sachs. Sure you can get into the smaller companies but it is still hard. Another thing is that I-Bankers nearly all live in New York which has a high cost of living. Sure the first year analyst base is $70,000 with bonus of anywhere from $40,000 - $85,000. Associate base is $120,000 with bonus from $70,000 - $150,000. VP base is around $250,000, with bonus from $150,000 - $300,000. Director base is $350,000 with bonus from $200,000 - $400,000. MD is $500,000 base, with bonus from $400,000 - $2,000,000. These are from the large firms.

You can also prepare to work around 70-80 hours a week on avg since you deal with company stock. You also must have experience since they are not just going to let anyone do this. And competition to be an I-Banker is fierce. It is pretty foolish for a pre-med to say I can be an I-banker when all it takes to get into medical school is a good GPA and a good MCAT (mostly).

As for Law school.. Do not go to Law School there are no jobs you will die alone...What don't believe me fine then go here http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3077610

 

[starfishprime]

haha nice analogy. but what about the part where bill the high school teacher gets laid off due to statewide budget cuts and has to go without beer for a full year? all while his brother Dr. Bob has the most secure job in america

a) It was a short analogy to illustrate inflation.
b) "Job security" is irrelevant to salary deflation. It is not tenable to say "Bob has a secure job, therefore his inflation-adjusted salary should go down every year."

 

[niranjan162]

I-banking's days are going to be pretty hard due to the recession. Many are being laid off and about about 10,000 from last year(expect that number to multiply by 10 by December). Yes you can still make money but you need connections. It is not like medicine in where you work hard and have a 3.8GPA and a 36Mcat with good extra circulars means your in. If you don't graduate from the top business schools and graduate near the top 10% of your class and kiss ass from powerful people to get into Morgan Stanley-Dean Witter, Merrill Lynch, Salomon-Smith-Barney, and Goldman Sachs. Sure you can get into the smaller companies but it is still hard. Another thing is that I-Bankers nearly all live in New York which has a high cost of living. Sure the first year analyst base is $70,000 with bonus of anywhere from $40,000 - $85,000. Associate base is $120,000 with bonus from $70,000 - $150,000. VP base is around $250,000, with bonus from $150,000 - $300,000. Director base is $350,000 with bonus from $200,000 - $400,000. MD is $500,000 base, with bonus from $400,000 - $2,000,000. These are from the large firms.

You can also prepare to work around 70-80 hours a week on avg since you deal with company stock. You also must have experience since they are not just going to let anyone do this. And competition to be an I-Banker is fierce. It is pretty foolish for a pre-med to say I can be an I-banker when all it takes to get into medical school is a good GPA and a good MCAT (mostly).

As for Law school.. Do not go to Law School there are no jobs you will die alone...What don't believe me fine then go here http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3077610

Getting a 3.8 and 36 isnt a walk in the part. Is it safe to assume that these things take a good amount of intelligence and hard work? So theoretically a pre-med could go into business and would most likely be at the top of his/her class. If they went to law school it would also be a similar case, these people are not slouches, they would be high in their classes. Pre-meds can kiss ass just as good as business people, from what I hear many 3rd years are great at this.

As for living in NYC, its true the cost of living is high. But a single person can live pretty decently on around $50,000 in NYC. Then theres places outside of nyc that you can live in like hoboken and the other suburbs, much cheaper, the commute is pretty short, and theres lots of young professionals living in the area (who also work in the city).

Theres also other areas of business, finance consulting, accounting, marketing and entrepreneurism. None of my friends in these fields have lost their jobs. You're probably thinking "Well not all these jobs guarentee the same money as medicine." True..BUT, there doing this straight out of college, the opportunity cost of 7-12 years cant be overlooked. Plus they wont be working as many hours as most docs. Throw in company benefits (like expense accounts, covering travel costs etc.), bonuses and raises and its not such an eneven race.

Also this isnt gonna happen tomorrow. The recession will actually drive up applications to med school and law school. First what has to happen is the healthcare reforms. More hours and lower reimbursements. It wont be a sharp cliff kind of decline. It will happen rather gradually. The economy will have rebounded or at least evened out. Also it seems that while med school seats are increasing, residency spots are not. So many lower tier applicants are gonna be forced into primary care spots. Providing even more unhappy docs to spread the word about the decline of medicine.

 

[ParthVader]

I am not trying to demonize the top 10% but to show that they don't need anyone to defend them.

You act like poor people are having a lot of fun and living it up because they don't pay income taxes and that rich people are down on their luck and struggling to make ends meet because they pay a high percentage of taxes.

It is true that it might not seem fair that "rich" people pay more in taxes but it is also true that it is unfair to tax people that can't afford to be taxed. And I would rather rich people be inconvenienced than have poor people be evicted from their homes just so that we can say that things are "fair." Life isn't fair... just ask one of the millions of Americans that are struggling to make their mortgage payments or can't afford health insurance.

Thats why you get an education and work hard so you can climb up the ladder and get a better life... This is the land of opportunity, plenty of time for you to shine... Imagine if you were poor and worked very hard to work your way to the top.. You took out loans, you stressed out a ton, and you worked your ass off in college.. You deserve that paycheck... Sure the progressive tax system is necessary, but it doesn't mean that the rich don't deserve a break either.. most of them are rich for a reason... [btw I am in no way rich..] Also, the millions of americans who can't pay their mortgage maybe should of rented instead of taking out a loan they couldnt keep payments on...

 

[Aladdin]

I-banking's days are going to be pretty hard due to the recession. Many are being laid off and about about 10,000 from last year(expect that number to multiply by 10 by December). Yes you can still make money but you need connections. It is not like medicine in where you work hard and have a 3.8GPA and a 36Mcat with good extra circulars means your in. If you don't graduate from the top business schools and graduate near the top 10% of your class and kiss ass from powerful people to get into Morgan Stanley-Dean Witter, Merrill Lynch, Salomon-Smith-Barney, and Goldman Sachs. Sure you can get into the smaller companies but it is still hard. Another thing is that I-Bankers nearly all live in New York which has a high cost of living. Sure the first year analyst base is $70,000 with bonus of anywhere from $40,000 - $85,000. Associate base is $120,000 with bonus from $70,000 - $150,000. VP base is around $250,000, with bonus from $150,000 - $300,000. Director base is $350,000 with bonus from $200,000 - $400,000. MD is $500,000 base, with bonus from $400,000 - $2,000,000. These are from the large firms.

You can also prepare to work around 70-80 hours a week on avg since you deal with company stock. You also must have experience since they are not just going to let anyone do this. And competition to be an I-Banker is fierce. It is pretty foolish for a pre-med to say I can be an I-banker when all it takes to get into medical school is a good GPA and a good MCAT (mostly).

As for Law school.. Do not go to Law School there are no jobs you will die alone...What don't believe me fine then go here http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3077610

Blatant lie.

Sure, New York has more I-banking jobs than any other city, but that does not mean that it has most of the I-banking jobs. Good GPA and good MCAT are not easy to get. And a lot of getting a good I-banking job (or at least making a lot of money) has a LOT to do with luck (i.e. being in the right place at the right time).

 

[Siverhideo1985]

Psshh...the number one way to get a job is through connections...not ability *cough* G.W.B. anyone?

P.S. on this thread: There is no free lunch, people. Very few are getting adequate raises (be my guest at taking a shot at getting one of those few positions) these days, unemployment is on the rise, the economy is in the sh*tter, healthcare is fuc*ed (for now). Hahahaha, business? yea...go right ahead.

I have friends in and out of law, business, grad, and medical schools and none of them enjoy an easy ride or top $$$. When you are young like (most) of us, you gotta work your ass off to be at the top. No one will conquer the world on a 9-5. You will get paid **** for the better part of a decade (after college that is), you will have ****ty hours for more than a decade, you will NOT find a career where people aren't bi*ching about aspects of it.

There is no one magic career. So pick your poison, whichever will make you happiest. If you are only after money, you are doing it for the wrong reasons anyway. Not because that makes you immoral or I think you should care about other things, but because 30 years down the line you will look back (with more or less money in the bank) and say "Fuc*!! I have hated my life for the last 30 years and now I have nothing to show for it besides a stupid bank statement with numbers on it. F*CK!!!" You are smart enough and free enough to choose. Choose to go down one path over another, or don't.

And if you don't like something about the system? Rattle the cages, join organizations, become involved...but quit your whining.

/my $0.02

 

[DOquestions]

Psshh...the number one way to get a job is through connections...not ability *cough* G.W.B. anyone?

P.S. on this thread: There is no free lunch, people. Very few are getting adequate raises (be my guest at taking a shot at getting one of those few positions) these days, unemployment is on the rise, the economy is in the sh*tter, healthcare is fuc*ed (for now). Hahahaha, business? yea...go right ahead.

I have friends in and out of law, business, grad, and medical schools and none of them enjoy an easy ride or top $$$. When you are young like (most) of us, you gotta work your ass off to be at the top. No one will conquer the world on a 9-5. You will get paid **** for the better part of a decade (after college that is), you will have ****ty hours for more than a decade, you will NOT find a career where people aren't bi*ching about aspects of it.

There is no one magic career. So pick your poison, whichever will make you happiest. If you are only after money, you are doing it for the wrong reasons anyway. Not because that makes you immoral or I think you should care about other things, but because 30 years down the line you will look back (with more or less money in the bank) and say "Fuc*!! I have hated my life for the last 30 years and now I have nothing to show for it besides a stupid bank statement with numbers on it. F*CK!!!" You are smart enough and free enough to choose. Choose to go down one path over another, or don't.

And if you don't like something about the system? Rattle the cages, join organizations, become involved...but quit your whining.

/my $0.02

Those are my thoughts as well.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Blatant lie.

Sure, New York has more I-banking jobs than any other city, but that does not mean that it has most of the I-banking jobs. Good GPA and good MCAT are not easy to get. And a lot of getting a good I-banking job (or at least making a lot of money) has a LOT to do with luck (i.e. being in the right place at the right time).

Roughly 70% of I-bankers live in New Jersey or New York.

 

[econdr]

It is pretty foolish for a pre-med to say I can be an I-banker when all it takes to get into medical school is a good GPA and a good MCAT (mostly).

I have to agree with this. I have a friend who was an associate in ibanking and had a change of heart and decided to go to med school like 4 years ago. He said med school was a cakewalk, easy by comparison. Put it this way, if you spend 4 years working 80 to 100 hours each week, you can easily put in 40 to 50 hours of class time and studying in med school, and ace your classes.

It was kind of like boot camp for him...

 

[helplineb]

It is true that the doctors here are at a loss but the number of patients should also be comparatively different I guess?The population should sometimes act as an advantage...

 

[Aladdin]

Roughly 70% of I-bankers live in New Jersey or New York.

You would probably be more right if you said "roughly 70% of I-banks are headquartered in NYC" but that doesn't mean that they don't have satellite offices all over the US and/or world.

I would probably guess it is closer to 50% (max) of actual I-banking JOBS are in NYC.

Of course, I'd love you to prove me wrong if you have some source that backs up your claims...

 

[BluntSurgeon]

I have to agree with this. I have a friend who was an associate in ibanking and had a change of heart and decided to go to med school like 4 years ago. He said med school was a cakewalk, easy by comparison. Put it this way, if you spend 4 years working 80 to 100 hours each week, you can easily put in 40 to 50 hours of class time and studying in med school, and ace your classes.

It was kind of like boot camp for him...

I agree with that statement too. Getting a 3.8 and a 35+ MCAT is a product of hard work, not necessarily intelligence. And we all know that most premed ECs require the brain power of a baboon. It's pretty naive to say that because a premed can achieve those stats that they are well suited to pursue a job in Ibanking. Apples and oranges. Paging batman1985 to this thread.

 

[batman1983]

Do you know how little work was required to get a loan 5 years ago?? Basically sign a sheet of paper. One migrant worker (keep in mind his income involved moving place to place in search of work...no security whatsoever)in california took out a 600K loan no money down...now tell me how does that make sense?

And to the migrant worker loan... I would love to see a link because there must have been more going on there... if not then I blame the lack of oversight by the government and the idiocy of the loaning institution on that one.

I think this example is taken out of the CNBC documentary ”House of Cards”, which essentially tells the story about the housing bubble and credit crunch. There were numerous examples of people like these, migrant and even illegal immigrants, that were able to get subprime loans or ARMs with 0% down. There is a reason why the largest number of foreclosures are generally in Hispanic and African American communities (esp in SD, LA, Phoenix, Las Vegas, and Miami). In SD(and I am willing to bet elsewhere), there were numerous cases of illegals buying houses during the bubble and refinancing when prices roses and just taking the equity $$ back to Mexico.
The problem with these types of loans was that is essentially got rid of the moral hazard aspect of home ownership by giving homeowners and speculators a free option: ie, they didn’t have to put anything down and if the price of their houses roses, they made free $$$. However, if housing prices fell, they could walk own with little costs/punishments. This was further exacerbated by the concept of Securization, where house loans were passed through the financial system from originators, such as Countrywide, to investment banks, like Lehman, and investors, such as insurance companies, hedge funds, and etc. Hence, the originators had little incentive to check the credit worthiniess of borrowers, and as a result of loan passthroughs, the end owner of a housing loan had little idea of the borrower and loan due diligence.

I agree with that statement too. Getting a 3.8 and a 35+ MCAT is a product of hard work, not necessarily intelligence. And we all know that most premed ECs require the brain power of a baboon. It's pretty naive to say that because a premed can achieve those stats that they are well suited to pursue a job in Ibanking. Apples and oranges. Paging batman1985 to this thread.

As for the IB vs. Medical School debate, firstly, it is hard to make comparisons between both fields since each requires different knowledge and skill sets. While a 3.8GPA and 35+MCAT is a strong indication of science knowledge and potential success in medical school, I think it is not a good indicator of general intelligence and ability to get into and succeed in IB. To be successful in IB, requires strong analytical, communication, and stress-management skills, as well as business knowledge/common sense, which at least from my experiences, I believe most premeds, med students, and physicians lack. Moreover, lets be honest, most premed ECs, esp undergrad research, are BS.
As for getting into IB, I think it is like most things in life, where it is not what you know, but who you know. By that, I mean that high grades are often not enough to get your foot in the door at an IB. Despite having high grades and double major from Berkeley, I did not get any IB campus interviews when I was recruiting during college. I got my IB job by flying to New York and pitching myself to IBankers at all Wall Street bars and subways. Through those experiences, I was able to get connections that eventually helped me land my gig.