Any Social Work PhD's going for their MD?

[happyinnyc]

Hello all,

Just started on here, so don't know if this topic has been raised in another thread/forum. My apologies if it has. I don't know nor have I heard of many people with PhD's in Social Work pursuing medicine; these days, it seems as though the MD/PhD dual degree is a big draw and most people are doing the degrees concurrently instead of one after the other and I have not yet found a dual DSW/MD program.

I have my MPH and am currently applying for a doctoral program in social work. I really enjoy applied social research and want to go into a health/public policy doctoral program to continue to cultivate my research skills while my mojo is good. But the thing is, I want to be a medical doctor as well. I have put off applying to medical school for 4 years now and don't want to prolong it any longer, but I also want to get my doctorate in social work.

I was thinking of doing the doctorate before the MD, but wonder if admission committees would think it odd that for me to apply to medical school upon graduating from the DSW program instead of working with my DSW for a number of years before deciding on a career "enhancement" or career change. I don't want to wait long after the DSW program to enter medical school because ideally, I would want to work on both degrees concurrently, but I have not found the program to allow me to do this.

I have been told by advisors that this make little sense and that I should go with one or the other, but in today's integrated world, we seem to be more forgiving about boundaries and I think I can do both! Am I the only person who thinks social work and medicine go together like peas in a pod? Is this just much too untraditional?

Any advice on whether I should do one or the other first? Anybody out there who can relate? Any social workers who want to "help"? 😀

Thank you!

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[zird00]

It is always nice to meet another, like-minded person. I am an MSW student, graduating in May. I have already completed apps for a PhD in Social Work. I have done extensive research on social justice and international social work and recently received my first pub. However, I find myself gravitating to a career in medicine. Yes, SW and MD are perfect partners. So "person-oriented" and... well it is hard to describe.

So I guess being a DSW applicant you are interested in clinical social work and possibly psychiatry?

 

[pingouin]

I'm a 9.5-years-post-graduation-MSW (7-years-post-LCSW) who has been accepted to med school for next year. 🙂

No interest in the DSW or PhD, though. Several friends who have gone that route, though. Not for me.

 

[zird00]

First let me say congrats on acceptance to med school!

I have completed the tedious application to the PhD, but will probably decline any offers. I have long desired a career in medicine and for the past year and a half (internship time) I have been working at a community health center. Working along side doctors daily has solidified my desire to complete the pre-reqs and go to med school.

Any advice for another sw on completing the class work and applying???

 

[hollywoodfl]

I am a mental health counseling masters student trying to get started on pre-reqs. I graduate in April, and I can see that I want to go the MD route. I applied to a clinical psychology program at the same time. I feel that there is a center point between these disciplines that requires mastery in all of them.

 

[pseudoknot]

I'm currently a first year med student with a PhD in biology; I'm not a social worker although my wife is finishing an MSW. I can certainly see overlap, in that a person could be drawn to both fields. However, having done the PhD->med school transition, I would definitely caution anyone against planning to undertake it. Are you sure you really need both degrees? Have you identified any mentors who are pursuing careers in which they practice medicine and also do work that only a DSW can do? In particular, you already have an MPH--if it's social policy research you are interested in, you may want to consider doing that in the context of a postdoctoral fellowship after med school, since you'd probably be paid more and it would further your medical career.

If you know you want to go to med school, focus on that. Don't invest precious years of your life in another doctoral degree if you don't have to.

 

[pingouin]

I'm currently a first year med student with a PhD in biology; I'm not a social worker although my wife is finishing an MSW. I can certainly see overlap, in that a person could be drawn to both fields. However, having done the PhD->med school transition, I would definitely caution anyone against planning to undertake it. Are you sure you really need both degrees? Have you identified any mentors who are pursuing careers in which they practice medicine and also do work that only a DSW can do? In particular, you already have an MPH--if it's social policy research you are interested in, you may want to consider doing that in the context of a postdoctoral fellowship after med school, since you'd probably be paid more and it would further your medical career.

If you know you want to go to med school, focus on that. Don't invest precious years of your life in another doctoral degree if you don't have to.

For what it's worth, I have to say that I agree with pseudoknot that if you see medicine as your end point, I'd go with that rather than getting the DSW or PhD.

The MD/PhD programs which exist are hard-science PhDs, not social sciences. To my knowledge there's no MD/clin psych PhD, either.. both degrees are earned separately (and the PhD or PsyD are usually earned first). If your interest is in psychiatry, then psychiatry residency will teach you everything you need regarding psychotherapy, differential diagnosis, etc. If the goal is to be a researcher, then what is the specific draw to the MD/DO when the PhD/DSW will allow that?

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm a huge believer in the integration of the two fields, and I also believe you have to know HOW you want to integrate them.

Not to mention, the SW PhD is no cakewalk. My city is home to one of the top programs in the country (if not THE top), which is where my friends and colleagues trained. About half the people I know in that program have been unable to complete their degree for various reasons. Usually it happens around the dissertation.. Take into consideration whether you have the stamina to work through all of that (likely 5-7 years) AND THEN go to 4 years of medical school + 3-7 years of residency + possible 1-3 years of fellowship. (Throw on another 1-2 years if you haven't completed your science pre-reqs yet, b/c you won't be able to do those while in SW PhD.)

Any advice for another sw on completing the class work and applying???

Shifting mindset from social science --> hard science (aka switching from right brain to left brain) was one of the toughest things for me. I have been fortunate to be at a place in my career where I was able to piece together 3 part-time positions which allowed me to flex work schedule around school schedule, and mix between day and evening classes.

In my interviews so far, no one has asked me about my MSW coursework. They have, however, focused in on my undergrad GPA- most notably, the C in Advanced Gen Chem from my freshman year in 1992 (three separate people have asked me about that, despite my As in Gen Chem 1 and 2 within the last 2 years). If you have old coursework which is sub 3.0, be prepared to 1) take lots of undergrad science classes and get As in them to try and boost that and 2) explain what happened way back when.

Otherwise, interviewers have seemed genuinely interested in my career shift, and have been positive about the possible contributions I can give to my class and to medicine. Plus, as a therapist who sits and talks to people all day long, I found it pretty easy to turn my interviews into conversations rather than interrogations which helped me relax a bit.

Having 3 separate clinical positions, I was able to get some really cool and non-traditional LORs- yes, I got the 2 sci profs, and even a non-sci/SW prof from undergrad (that's right, 11 years post-graduation 😱 ). However, I have a great SW supervisor at one hospital, a highly-regarded pediatrician/full-time faculty member from a local med school (I'm assigned to her department as the SW), and a psychiatrist/part-time faculty member from the other local med school who refers to my private practice.

At any rate, good luck to all in your decision-making!

 

[zird00]

pingouin- thanks for the advice. While I have applied for the PhD, I do not think I will follow thru. I really see myself being an MD. And I do enjoy research, but it is the human interaction that really drives me.

I want to do the work, the work beckons me... I know it sounds odd but the chase is at least part of what makes this so great. I must also sya that I have been doing social sciences for some time and am a little apprehensive about shifting into the hard sciences.

And for me at least, it is not a choice of PhD/MD... it is PhD OR MD and MD is the clear winner.

 

[pingouin]

It really is a change in thinking, zird. I remember telling people "I've been exercising parts of my brain that have been LONG dormant!" Adding difficulty is that there's no real overlap or applicability of things like physics or chem in doing therapy/clinical social work. (Except the day right after my MCAT, when one of my private clients, who was taking a bio class, asked me if I knew what an action potential is. And I did, and I got to explain it to her. )

For the record, the first part of my reply was mostly directed at the original poster. As a good and dutiful social worker, I shall help him/her think in new ways about the decisions to be made and empower them to make their choice. 😀

 

[happyinnyc]

Gosh, I've been so busy trying to get my application to the SW doctoral program together that I haven't been back on here since I first posted the message, which I'm happy to see generated a healthy discussion.

In response to your inquiry, zird00, no I actually wasn't thinking about going into psychiatry. I am more focused on administration and policy, which I thought I needed the PhD for, but after reading the responses and talking with some advisors from my school, I've realized that it may be helpful, but not necessary.

And pseudoknot and pingouin, you're both right--if my desired end is medical school then I should not invest time in the DSW program. I wasn't too sure about this to begin with and although I have started the application and spent a lot of time on it, doing so has helped me realize that I am not ready for this nor do I want to do this as much as I want to go into medicine.

I've actually taken all of my pre-reqs (started out as a pre-med years ago) and now need to get over my fear of the MCAT..😱 but that's a whole other post that I will save for a later day.

Thanks to everybody who "wrote in" their thoughts...all were very helpful.

 

[PhD2Be]

I am currently a 3rd year PhD student at the top PhD program in social work in the country. I took the pre-med prereqs many moons ago, but I will have to retake them again due to the 10 year rule.


Once my dissertation committee gives me permission to defend my dissertation, I intend to apply to the post-bacc program at Bryn Mawr (among others). Without divulging too much personal information, my dissertation research focuses on the ability of primary care physicians to diagnose, treat, and manage psychiatric disorders among members of a particularly disenfranchised population that lacks access to mental health care. THere is a lot more to it than that, but that is is basis of it.


If all goes according to plan, I should be starting med school at the ripe old age of 36. I have been told by adcoms that I have a decent shot getting in somewhere. I plan to go the DO route.


I cannot emphasize how thrilled I was to find this thread!😀

 

[pingouin]

I am currently a 3rd year PhD student at the top PhD program in social work in the country. I took the pre-med prereqs many moons ago, but I will have to retake them again due to the 10 year rule.

by any chance, does your school's name have something in common with this company's logo?

 

[zird00]

pingouin - what a subtle way to say what we all know must be true! (if in fact it is not pride that led to PhD2Be's statement) Kudos.

 

[Swerve]

I am actually finishing my MSW this MAY, and am in the process of applying to Post-Bacc myself. It was great to read that many see the overlap and insight that an MSW may find helpful as an MD. I have been picking the brain of my current mentor and other individuals much wiser then myself, who all have supported my plan. But seeing other people in a similiar boat is great.

How have people been defending their SW backgrounds and has anyone been met with opposition at all?

 

[pingouin]

pingouin - what a subtle way to say what we all know must be true! (if in fact it is not pride that led to PhD2Be's statement) Kudos.

😀 Subtle is my middle name. *snort*

actually, my curiosity was piqued in that PhD2Be and I may be referring to the same place (see my above posts)

How have people been defending their SW backgrounds and has anyone been met with opposition at all?

"Opposition" probably isn't the right word for what I've seen.. curiosity.. intrigue.. some skepticism. One interviewer flat-out pointed out my lack of a "strong science background", which is true. One advantage all of you have is more recent research experience. I certainly did some for my required classes, but I graduated almost 10 years ago and have been 80% clinical/20% administration since then- 0% research. I would say I've had to explain the switch to medicine, not defend it, but with such a strong clinical background this hasn't been too difficult. I'd say that I've had to defend MORE the fact that I was pre-med my freshman year in college, switched out, and am going back to it. Have gotten a lot of questions on why I left in the first place, and under what circumstances.

 

[PhD2Be]

I suppose that I may have been overly exuberant when I stated that I was at one of the top SW PhD programs in the country. I apologize if I came across as being arrogant. That was not my intention. The truth is that I was so thrilled to come across a thread where social workers and social-workers-to-be were discussing the possibility of transitioning to medicine that I didn't take the time to read over my post.


I won't state which school I attend, but there are a few schools with top-rated PhD programs in social work/social welfare, and I attend one of them.🙂 Without going into to much detail, medicine has always been my goal. Unfortunately, life has a way of throwing us the occasional curve ball.


That is not to say that I have not thoroughly enjoyed my career as a practicing social worker. My doctoral studies have only served to underscore my desire to practice medicine, and I think that my training in research methodology will allow me to be of even more service to agencies that are attempting to provide health care to under-served populations.

Again, I apologize if I came across as being arrogant.

 

[PhD2Be]

You are correct that most MD/PhD programs focus on the hard sciences. However, I know a university that has an MD/PhD program, and the PhD is in anthropology!

 

[PhD2Be]

repost-ooops

 

[pseudoknot]

You are correct that most MD/PhD programs focus on the hard sciences. However, I know a university that has an MD/PhD program, and the PhD is in anthropology!

I think Paul Farmer did an MD/PhD in anthro, not that this has anything to do with the thread.

 

[zird00]

Pingouin - How was your pre-med/post-bacc experience? Did you take just the minimum pre-reqs? Have you been accepted? Just any info you might be willing and able to share with fellow social workers going down the path you have been down.

Swerve - you and I, it appears, are in the same boat. I will be finishing up my MSW in May as well. I will be jumping in to Chem I & II feet first this summer. 😱

 

[pingouin]

Pingouin - How was your pre-med/post-bacc experience? Did you take just the minimum pre-reqs? Have you been accepted? Just any info you might be willing and able to share with fellow social workers going down the path you have been down.

It's been pretty decent so far.. I had several schools to choose from in my area, and went with the 4-year state school over the (very good) community college and the (very expensive) private schools. Part of that was SDN conventional wisdom of "don't go CC if you have other options", and part was calling one of my top schools and being told they "strongly prefer" the pre-reqs be done at a 4-year accredited university.

I had taken a few of the classes as an undergrad in the early 90s, and retook all of those to 1) relearn the material and 2) improve my grades in some of them. Gen Bio was a fairly different beast due to the better imaging and increased knowledge of cell structure and function, etc. These early-90s grades are the ones I've had to defend in each interview I've had. Since I've been working essentially full-time in addition to school, I've done about 2 classes a semester, with labs. I have 3 part-time jobs which are all quite flexible about scheduling; it's helped so that I can take one AM and one PM class per semester. I'm currently in Microbiology and will take Biochemistry in the spring. I want to get these in, but I also don't want to kill myself as I'm applying, so I went with only 1 class/semester this year. Finding time to study for the MCAT was my biggest issue.. I don't have a whole lot of advice on that since my score wound up being pretty mediocre.

And yes, I'm proud to say that I've gotten 3 interviews. Of the two I've been to so far, I have one acceptance and the other committee will send decisions later this month. I would say that my MCAT score and my GPA (post-bacc was great, undergrad was ~3.3 so pulling it up wasn't easy) have likely gotten me some rejections and holds where I otherwise might have had a chance for an interview. I only applied at MD schools.

 

[zird00]

pingouin - I am finding many similarities in your situation and my own. My undergrad is a 3.3 and my grad a 4.0. I hope to take the pre-reqs begining this summer and finish in May '09 (see below). I plan to take the MCAT in early June after finishing my pre-reqs. My plan is to really start studying for the MCAT around March and I hope my ECs, experience, grad GPA and post-bacc all help me stand out. I took a few pre-reqs as an undergrad but I will retake them to up the grades and to re-learn.

PRE-REQ PLAN
Summer
Chem I & lab
Chem II & lab

Fall
O-Chem I & lab
Phys I & lab
Cell Bio & lab

Winter
Micro & lab OR
Human A&P & lab

Spring
O-Chem II & lab
Phys II & lab
Zoology & lab

Summer
MCAT

 

[pingouin]

zird, where's the General Bio I/II in your schedule? The zoology/lab may be II, but you still need I, unless you already took it as an undergrad and aren't planning on retaking. The upper-level bios (cell, micro) will be good if you can pull the good grades.

Pace yourself on this- because we do not have strong science backgrounds, we need to be able to prove we can hold our own with the science classes. If you're starting where I did, you need As and A-s all the way. Anything less will NOT raise your GPA (B+s will keep it about the same and Bs will lower it). As I said, it's quite the shift in mindset and study technique, so don't bite off more than you can chew.

Will you be working while going to school?



Edit: Also, FWIW, I have yet to be asked about my coursework or GPA (which was very good) in my MSW program. They've been all over the undergrad stuff, though. Moreso than the post-bacc GPA.

 

[zird00]

Cell Bio & lab is basic bio I. Basic bio II at my school is ecology/evolution a course I will not need (skippin it!). Zoology is a mid-level course that I will be prepped for by taking Cell Bio (according to the adviser anyway).

I agree with you tho... As all the way... I must have As.

I will probably work part time. I will be using my savings $$$$$$$$$ to pay for my coursework.

So do you feel that your MSW helped you stand out even though there have been no questions??? I look at the degrees accepted at many med schools and NEVER see MSWs. I always thought my strong research experience (even in social sciences) and positive showing in an MSW would make me stand out above all of the MA/MS in Bio, Chem, Phys, Neuro, Eng, etc.

 

[coffeedrinker]

sorry if this is off topic, but to those that got into phd program in social work, how hard is it to get in? i've been a practicing lawyer for the past 3 years and now i want back in school for whatever reason. my gre results were not great (650 quant and 580 verbal) - kinda embarrassing but i've been outta the loop for some time and didn't have a chance to study.

i'm applying to mich and ucla as i'm limited geographically.

 

[zird00]

coffeedrinker - how geographically limited could you be... Michigan and UCLA... in cas you failed geography those are not close. Any how your GRE scores are decent... you prolly wont get into Brown or Columbia and Michigan is probably a stretch ... but you never know. Before moving from law to PhD in SW I would get my MSW first just to see if it is a fit. Plus, most programs require it and it is a requirement to teach at most schools

 

[pingouin]

So do you feel that your MSW helped you stand out even though there have been no questions???

In some ways, yes. There certainly aren't a lot of us making this change. I don't think it's been a disadvantage in any way. I'd say it's more what I've done with it since having the degree rather than the degree itself. Also surprising is I went Advanced Standing, so I was done with my MSW in a year (9 mos actually). That's pretty clear on my transcripts and all... I can't recall being asked about that... Hmm.

I look at the degrees accepted at many med schools and NEVER see MSWs.

I've wondered if we get lumped in with "MA" or "MS" at some point since again- there aren't very many.. Although there's a fairly recent thread in the psychiatry residency subforum about LCSW--> psychiatry, and there are several SWs who responded. Surprised me how many..

I always thought my strong research experience (even in social sciences) and positive showing in an MSW would make me stand out above all of the MA/MS in Bio, Chem, Phys, Neuro, Eng, etc.

I think research is good in any capacity- shows that you know basic stats and interpretation, and the general research process (which doesn't really change no matter your discipline). I wouldn't say it puts us above the science masters people, but more like next to, slightly separated from since it is a pretty different field from the hard sciences. At my most recent interview, I was flat-out asked "Tell me about your research" and had to own up to not having much post-graduation. I am peripherally involved in a really interesting clinical psychiatric study, so I talked about that for a bit. (The study is on a population I work with in one of my hospital jobs, and more than half of their pilot study participants were referred by me and the physicians with whom I work.)

 

[zird00]

pingouin - how did you study for the MCAT? When I look at MCAT books/tests now I am overwhelmed. I know I have a lot of course work to go. Do you feel that the pre-reqs prepared you for the MCAT? It just seems like so much to learn (not including the dramatic shift in learning) in such a small amount of time.

 

[coffeedrinker]

LOL. Thanks for the geography lesson. I'd like to be in either MI or Los Angeles - that's where my wife and I have family.

 

[pingouin]

Oh, given my MCAT score, I'm not so sure I'd recommend using my study plan. 😳

In retrospect, I'd say that you need to make sure you have the time to devote to studying for it. The pre-reqs should largely prepare you by teaching the covered topics, and the MCAT review materials may supplement and clarify that stuff.

It is a lot to learn, but if you do well in your pre-reqs, you've won 1/2 the battle.

Oh- and as a good little MCAT subforum moderator, I highly suggest you go to the MCAT forum to see what other people say about how to study. 🙂 (And please do a search before making a new thread, b/c whatever your question is, I'm sure it's been asked 18,000 times already. OK maybe I exaggerate. But still.)

 

[ocddoc]

I thought I'd introduce myself to the conversation. I've been a social worker for 11 years and received my MSW in 1999. I found out yesterday I've been accepted to Creighton which I'm very excited about. I did do some research on infant mental health in the neonatal intensive care environment which my interviewer at Creighton seemed very interested to hear about.

The hardest part for me in the interview process has been that a couple of my interviewers have been very surprised that I don't want to do psychiatry or primary care. Has anyone else run into this?

As far as MCAT study strategies, I took almost all of the AMCAS on-line practice tests - multiple times. I also used the MCAT visual aid DVDs which were helpful, although a little poor in quality. I did not take a review course, nor did I take Physics II prior to taking the MCAT. I got a 34S on the MCAT.

Good luck to everyone in their applications!!

 

[zird00]

ocddoc - I would very much like to know more about your situation. Do you have your LCSW? How did you go about completing your pre-reqs? Any other good info for an MSW transitioning to MD (hopefully 😀)

 

[pingouin]

I thought I'd introduce myself to the conversation. I've been a social worker for 11 years and received my MSW in 1999. I found out yesterday I've been accepted to Creighton which I'm very excited about. I did do some research on infant mental health in the neonatal intensive care environment which my interviewer at Creighton seemed very interested to hear about.

Given that Creighton is my only acceptance right now, they are so in trouble if we both wind up going there.

The hardest part for me in the interview process has been that a couple of my interviewers have been very surprised that I don't want to do psychiatry or primary care. Has anyone else run into this?

My work history is in mental health, so they're more surprised when I say I'm leaning toward psych but not 100% there. Given your background as a medical SW, it makes total sense to me that you might be interested more in medicine than psych.

 

[zird00]

Do you think Creighton has an affinity for social workers?

 

[ocddoc]

I am testing for my LCSW in January. I decided to go ahead and test since I have completed my supervision hours and will probably do some on-call social work while in medical school.

I am taking three years to complete the prereqs as I had not taken any science classes (except the biology course for my undergrad social work degree) and I worked full-time while doing it. The first year I just took one class per semester and the second year I took 2 classes per semester. I think it really helped me that I had taken chem. and physics in high school and was surprised how much of it came back to me.

I applied to med school this cycle - which was two years into my prereqs. I can't imagine taking the MCAT after only one year of prereqs, even if I had been going to school full-time. I felt like I was rushing it a little even taking it after two years.

I think that once you decide you want to go to medical school, you just want to get to the point where you can apply as quickly as possible, especially when you're a nontrad. It's helped me to remind myself that I will be 40 someday anyway, so I might as well be 40 and doing what I want to do. When planning how to complete your prereqs, my advice is to challenge yourself, but also make a plan that is managable. Although you might not use a lot of the prereq material in med school, doing well in these classes will help to build your confidence that you can do well in science.

As for Creighton - I don't think I've ever met a happier group of students. Every school I've interviewed at I've asked the students how they are able to find balance in their lives, I'm very convinced that the students at Creighton feel that they are able to maintain good mental health despite the demands of medical school. My understanding is that one of the administrators of the medical school is a psychiatrist and that he really emphasizes balance to the medical students. I also felt that they are more friendly to nontrads then some of the other schools I've interviewed at.

I hope that was helpful info. I'm happy to answer any other questions you might have. I think that social workers have a lot to offer the medical field and I'm glad to know that there are several of us on this track.

 

[Cheenghee Koh]

It is a 10-year old thread. At the time this thread started (2007), I was starting my PhD in social work in one of the "top" programs in the mid-west. 10 years have passed, I got my PhD in 2013, didn't go into tenure track, but finished my 3-year post-doc at my MSW institution in West-coast, and finished my last pre-med course this summer in East coast. Now I am preparing for MCAT in January 2018, and will apply to med school next cycle, while preparing several RO1 grants..... Life is filled with surprises. I didn't expect that one day I would decide to go on the MD journey while I was younger.

How is everybody who every contributed to this thread?