I am still without a job. What can I do? Stay home and continue looking? Will I even look weaker by doing that? Apply for a fellowship in 2015? But what can I do in these two years?
Crying.
Crying.
Anybody still without a job?
- Thread starter hemepath
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why not try a 2013 fellowship? there are some openings there.
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Man, EM here. WTF is going on with pathology. reading this board is depressing for colleagues of mine who have to beg for jobs, return to do more fellowships just to remain active.
Is this field really that Dead? Reading this makes me feel so lucky that EM has such a doctor shortage.
Is this field really that Dead? Reading this makes me feel so lucky that EM has such a doctor shortage.
2013 fellowships, those advertised on pathologyoutlines or listservs, get dozens of applications and are very competitive.
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Pathologists are like the opposums of the medical world. If two opossums are walking along and one gets hit by a car, the surviving one eats him. That pretty much summarizes the field.
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Try to convince one of the forensic path fellowships that you'd be worth their taking on for a year. But you'd have to really make that sell hard, as any of us would see your situation for what it is. That said, even someone who isn't going to do FP long term could be worth it if they're good little workhorses who will do 200-250 cases during their fellowship year. Look in the midwest - those programs never fill.
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Consider doing part-time or per diem work, a place where they would just like someone to help ease their load a bit. You likely won't get benefits, but it will help build the resume, keep you active, and give you an "in". At the least it will expose you to contacts, and they might even think of you first if they have need for a full-time pathologist.
Finding such positions is the hard part. I agree to try the Midwest, and the west as well (Rocky Mountains, baby!). Some of these states are so sparsely populated, they have a seriously hard time attracting pathologists. You might try contacting the individual state pathology societies to see if they are aware of any resources or contacts to help identify practices that could use some help.
I realize this is a fairly weak outline of a suggestion, but it's an option.
Finding such positions is the hard part. I agree to try the Midwest, and the west as well (Rocky Mountains, baby!). Some of these states are so sparsely populated, they have a seriously hard time attracting pathologists. You might try contacting the individual state pathology societies to see if they are aware of any resources or contacts to help identify practices that could use some help.
I realize this is a fairly weak outline of a suggestion, but it's an option.
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Assuming a position or group of positions is too competitive for some reason isn't going to help you. Beat the defeatist attitude. I know a lot of people who never faced any kind of adversity until med school, others not until residency, and others not until the job hunt. How folks *deal* with that will determine whether they succeed in the long run -- not the fact that at some point in their life things were hard.
At this stage there are still the same options you had at the start of the year -- you can still try to get a fellowship, because they ARE out there, even for 2013, but certainly 2014. You can continue trying to get a "real" job, perhaps being more open to alternative locations or employers, etc. You can find some locum opportunities, which may be sporadic but are much better than flipping burgers and having a real "gap" year. You can choose to do something non-path/non-med, but make it busy and interesting -- a gap year or two is certainly not unheard of (as in for family reasons..having babies, moving for a partner's job, etc.), and while not generally recommended right out of fellowship, as long as you're not sitting on your butt playing video games the whole time it doesn't have to be the end of your career. Administration, a procurement agency, etc. are also options. Point is, stop thinking in terms of what you can't do or might be too hard, and think about what you *can* do.
At this stage there are still the same options you had at the start of the year -- you can still try to get a fellowship, because they ARE out there, even for 2013, but certainly 2014. You can continue trying to get a "real" job, perhaps being more open to alternative locations or employers, etc. You can find some locum opportunities, which may be sporadic but are much better than flipping burgers and having a real "gap" year. You can choose to do something non-path/non-med, but make it busy and interesting -- a gap year or two is certainly not unheard of (as in for family reasons..having babies, moving for a partner's job, etc.), and while not generally recommended right out of fellowship, as long as you're not sitting on your butt playing video games the whole time it doesn't have to be the end of your career. Administration, a procurement agency, etc. are also options. Point is, stop thinking in terms of what you can't do or might be too hard, and think about what you *can* do.
Are you BE/BC(which one?)? If so, I know of a GI in office contract job opening up in a few months. I don't know exactly what it will pay per case, but I do know they are looking at significantly reducing the 16-17 bucks or so they are paying out per now...
the sad thing is pathologists still have a higher average income than EM....just because EM by it's very nature is so limiting(even if the hourly pay is good, it does eventually cap out and there is no other sources of money).....an ER doc just isn't going to make 850k a year. It's just not possible. But a pathologist, given the right situation, most certainly can...and then some.
that said, EM is a sweet field for people who are ok with that.....if I could have tolerated it I would have definately done it.
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Well, an ER doc can go open a private Urgent Care center and perhaps do pretty good. But there's that whole running a business thing. There may be a cap of sorts, in general, but they have the advantage of being needed in relatively large numbers more or less everywhere -- with the disadvantage of board certification in EM not always being necessary for hiring to work an ER, not to mention mid-level creep.
Hate to say it, but this is a good idea. It is actually cheaper for busy clinical groups to hire their own stooge pathologist than to pay local pathologists for in-office coverage, even at cut-rate. We've already lost work this way as the pathology race to the bottom continues.
You might try cold-calling some big scope mills and see if they bite. It can't hurt. And I wouldn't worry about lack of subspecialty expertise. The kind of groups that would hire you are not interested in quality, trust me.
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You are absolutely right. An EM doc will never make 850k a year unless he works 80 hrs a week. But if Pathologists are really able to pull that much, then you guys should not be complaining about much.
I don't know about pathologists, but most fields are capped unless you own your own business or own the group. I know our major owner pulls in 3-4 mil a year and he doesn't even work anymore.
He has the perfect job. No overhead, no office, no supplies. He owns nothing but takes in 3+ mil per year sitting at home doing nothing.
So to say EM is capped is only true if you do not own your group, but I suspect this is the case for most specialities.
I still can't complain making 250+/hr with no overhead, no staff, no supplies, no call, .
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You are my new favorite poster. Be forewarned. You are about to hit with so many anecdotes of "struggling" pathologists, you will never want to post here again.
How does one establish that sort of pimp / ho arrangement? 3-4 million must requires some sort of overhead and/or risk exposure.
well most pathologists can't pull that much.....but there are some(a non-trivial minority) that do.....the key is to be one of those.
The top ten percent of pathologists stack up very well against *any* specialty....even things like neurosurgery.
The guy who owns the group that my fiance currently contracts out with for their in office path has to be making at least 2.5-3 mill a year. He's not the norm by any means, but his story isn't a 1 in 500 either...
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We go through this cycle on here not infrequently... someone posts they can't find a job, cries for closing programs... then nothing. But we don't know these posters. The only regular I can think of who struggled was tiki, and ultimately found a good job.
My question to the regular posters on here: how many of you personally know solid young pathologists who are unable to find a decent job, if they're willing to move around?
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What is decent and what is good? Any job?
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I know of none, personally.
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I know of none as well.
The best answer is probably a job that the person enjoys that pays $150k+ (academic) or $180k+ private
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The only issue with that is that path, being a 4 year residency (and upwards of 6 given the fellowships), should pay more; the above are family medicine numbers. Other 4 year residencies such as anesthesia, IM, and EM(the latter which are usually 3 years), pay far more than that. Peds probably pays less, but its peds and that has its own prestige. Radiology, a specialty that has a similar function to path, and trains for about the same amount of time, pays nearly triple the above figures. And on top of that, paths have the tightest job market outside of the now-defunct nuclear medicine (and when in-vivo molecular imaging comes, path will be joining them as radiology takes it over). It's hard for me to see any student choosing pathology when there are just so many other, better, options.
The reason for the low pay has nothing to do with value as it does with an overabundance of trained individuals undercutting each other for a small piece of the pie. Your field seems more cut-throat, and less collegial, than other fields. The existence of POD labs is due to the fact that there are plenty of pathologists with questionable ethics working at them.
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Whether you actually know an unemployed pathologist is an absurd question. Im sure if you were an unemployed type you fade into the background. You arent posting on Facebook "Day 231 without a Pathology job...Im going to kill myself now..." for every one of your peers to see.
That said I have an absolutely true story: I was hanging out a relatively long time ago with a girl I had started dating. She had worked at this little botique home shop called "Smith and Hawkens", dont even know if those exist anymore? Anyway, I told her I was a Pathologist and she giddly exclaimed that she knew another Pathologist and we should meet. It was her manager at Smith and Hawkens, he had gone to med school and done a full Pathology residency and was working for 70K per year as the manager of a retail shop...
I was both floored and embarassed. I broke up with the girl soon after because she tried to get me to meet this guy at every chance and I didnt want to face the job market had gotten that bad for some of us...
true story folks. I cant make sh-t up that good.
That said I have an absolutely true story: I was hanging out a relatively long time ago with a girl I had started dating. She had worked at this little botique home shop called "Smith and Hawkens", dont even know if those exist anymore? Anyway, I told her I was a Pathologist and she giddly exclaimed that she knew another Pathologist and we should meet. It was her manager at Smith and Hawkens, he had gone to med school and done a full Pathology residency and was working for 70K per year as the manager of a retail shop...
I was both floored and embarassed. I broke up with the girl soon after because she tried to get me to meet this guy at every chance and I didnt want to face the job market had gotten that bad for some of us...
true story folks. I cant make sh-t up that good.
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I know of a pathologist that is now working at an anti-aging clinic. Not sure what salary that pays but it cant be to good.
I already make more money in my new career than pathology. It's going to be easy leaving the field. Dont get excited, my position will not be filled.
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Do you guys really not recognize how stupid you are being? There are upwards of 14,000 board certified pathologists in this country. Between the three of you you know what 10? 20? 50? pathologists who are unhappy and you are generalizing from that to the fact that everyone is miserable. I would say that 50% of the anesthesiologists I met during residency were miserable SOBs who trudged into work each day and were more interested in the machinations of the stock market than any of the cases they worked on. Most of the surgeons I met were miserable and bitter SOBs too, most of whom had been divorced at least once.
Here are a few examples of people who I know who have switched from other fields and are now practicing path full time:
1- One Peds attending who subsequently did a Path residency and is now working as a Path attending at a Childrens Hospital in MN
2- One FM attending who is now doing a Path residency in TN
3- Six Derms working full time in DermPath in various states on the East Coast
4- Two surgeons who subsequently did path residency and are now working as Path attendings, also on the East Coast
Can we conclude from this that peds, FM, derm and surgery are basket cases too? You guys need to stop bad mouthing the field of pathology and find a better hobby. You are scaring the would-be pathology residents and doing a disservice to the profession.
Here are a few examples of people who I know who have switched from other fields and are now practicing path full time:
1- One Peds attending who subsequently did a Path residency and is now working as a Path attending at a Childrens Hospital in MN
2- One FM attending who is now doing a Path residency in TN
3- Six Derms working full time in DermPath in various states on the East Coast
4- Two surgeons who subsequently did path residency and are now working as Path attendings, also on the East Coast
Can we conclude from this that peds, FM, derm and surgery are basket cases too? You guys need to stop bad mouthing the field of pathology and find a better hobby. You are scaring the would-be pathology residents and doing a disservice to the profession.
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There are 14000 practicing pathologists in the US?! Seriously??
wow, Ive never seen that statistic.
Given that 1 Pathologist can easily handle 70,000 general citizens..
70,000x14,000=980,000,000
We have enough Pathology manning for almost 1 billion people. Wonderful.
Given we have 300 or million US citizens, we would need to have Hunger Games style combat event where about 9,300+ of us die off to create market equilibrium....Good luck.
P.S. Your 14K number appears to be valid. That is INSANE. I knew it was bad, but not that bad...
wow, Ive never seen that statistic.
Given that 1 Pathologist can easily handle 70,000 general citizens..
70,000x14,000=980,000,000
We have enough Pathology manning for almost 1 billion people. Wonderful.
Given we have 300 or million US citizens, we would need to have Hunger Games style combat event where about 9,300+ of us die off to create market equilibrium....Good luck.
P.S. Your 14K number appears to be valid. That is INSANE. I knew it was bad, but not that bad...
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There are 14000 practicing pathologists in the US?! Seriously??
wow, Ive never seen that statistic.
Given that 1 Pathologist can easily handle 70,000 general citizens..
70,000x14,000=980,000,000
We have enough Pathology manning for almost 1 billion people. Wonderful.
Given we have 300 or million US citizens, we would need to have Hunger Games style combat event where about 9,300+ of us die off to create market equilibrium....Good luck.
P.S. Your 14K number appears to be valid. That is INSANE. I knew it was bad, but not that bad...
What are the assumptions in that 70k number? I've seen anywhere from 70-100, but never any real discussion how that number is calculated.
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^^^ This^^^
Anecdotally speaking I can say that in general pathology is a "go-to" specialty rather than a "bail-out" one. I have encountered and heard of way more people switching into pathology from another field of medicine than vice versa. Sure, we all know exceptions of people who completed training and somehow fell off the wagon. But I'm willing to bet if you added up everyone we've encountered or heard of in pathology, there's more people who came into our field from something else than those who left it to do child psychiatry, holistic medicine, or starting up juvederm/botox clinics or whatever.
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Let me re-emphasize the "solid" part of my question. If a crappy pathologist can't find work, that's not a sign of a bad market, but of good patient care. Are those of you saying you know pathologists who cannot who appear to be competent, hard-working, and socially normal? The only FPs I've heard of that cannot find long-term work are those that are either horribly incompetent, or more commonly, can't pass the boards (usually AP - it's rare for someone to pass AP and then not be able to pass FP).
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Doesn't really seem like a question, more like a statement...and it looks like you answer your own question anyway, so why ask, if you seem to already have an answer?
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*well*. You can't make **** up that *well*.
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Thanks for the linguistic analysis. I ask because my experience is specific to the field of FP, which is quite different than what most of you do. And thus I am asking if people on here personally know good pathologists who aren't crazy and who aren't geographically restricted who are unable to find a job... because for all the complaining and whining people do on here, the pool of unemployed seems low, and we have no idea of verifying their credentials and personality on an internet forum.
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This has created issues for several people that I know of. I don't have the impression that chairpersons/program directors stress this enough during interview season. Also, as life goes on you may become more geographically restricted than you ever imagined you might be.
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I think the "good" refers to the noun "****", not the making up.
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Unemployed and underemployed are in my books the same thing.
Well, you're just a fracking ray of sunshine, aren't ya.
Someone who's slogging into McDs to wash out the deep-fryers at 4 a.m. for 20 hrs a week at $7.25/hr is underemployed. What exactly is an underemployed pathologist making?
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The fellows from my program have all gotten good jobs (in the locations they chose, actually), with the exception of 1 surg path fellow who took a cyto fellowship for next year. The second fellowship was her choice because she wanted more training; she didn't actively seek a job.
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I disagree with that view, and like another poster, I'm not sure what underemployed pathologist means. Please elaborate, if you will.
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Exactly. Are we talking about someone doing locums that would like a full-time gig and can't find one? Someone working part-time that wants full-time?
Someone in a position that is getting 10% of the cut with no upward mobility. THIS is the biggest problem.👎thumbdown👎
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I wouldn't use the term "underemployed" for that sort of arrangement. Certainly not IDEALLY employed from the pathologist's perspective, but not underemployed.
Geographic restriction has caused the most job related complaints in my program. Some are because there's 2 physician couples who are not ready to move at the same time. That sucks but should be forseeable. The ones I get tired of are residents who come and buy houses and put their kids in school and then expect to stay on as junior faculty just cause they really like their house in the surburbs. I feel for people having to move (I did), but the pathology market gets saturated in these towns where there are training programs-often times more than one program.
The pathology market is different than other specialties. I'm not sure why there is this expectation that a city can absorb an entire crop of residnts from between 1 and 4 training programs every year! Aside from the idea that some of these programs need to decrease or close, that's the reality. It seems like most of the people who needed to stay (for whatever reason) eventually did get some type of job here, but I have no doubt some flexibility would have made some of the searches a lot more fruitful.
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I should point out that while FP has plenty of jobs, many don't pay great. Just saw an ad for a job with the NYC office, salary range around 130-160K. Not sure who the heck is going to take that... not this guy.
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Might as well drive a garbage truck for the city at that rate in that COL area.
D
deleted314957
you'd make that or more as a police lieutenant in NYC with some decent overtime. plus you'd have a great pension.
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Yes, I agree that salary is far too low, and even if I had interest in leaving my current position (which I don't), no way would I apply for that one. But I'd be shocked if they don't fill it, although I wonder if they'll find a native English speaking and boarded FP to do it for that salary in NYC.
