Anyone accepted to med school with suspension? expulsion?

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kicker123

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I was wondering if anyone has been accepted to medical schools with a suspension (whether disciplinary suspension or for academic dishonesty) on their transcript. I have been suspended for cheating on my orgo exam so i transferred to a different school and finished my pre-med requirements. do you guys think i should even apply? any advice or success stories would be appreciated.
 
kicker123 said:
I was wondering if anyone has been accepted to medical schools with a suspension (whether disciplinary suspension or for academic dishonesty) on their transcript. I have been suspended for cheating on my orgo exam so i transferred to a different school and finished my pre-med requirements. do you guys think i should even apply? any advice or success stories would be appreciated.

I know a guy who was suspended (disciplinary) and he still was able to get into two schools BUT he didn't put it on his AMCAS and when some schools found out they didn't even give him a chance, I think that really hurt his admission chances at some schools. I can say that honesty is the best policy in the application process. Also I don't know in your case because I think that Adcoms may look at your academic dishonesty and they may really want to know why u did it and most importantly would you do it again.

Good Luck
 
That cheating incident is really going to hurt you, especially if it was a recent incident. The ethical thing to do would be to admit it (amcas asks you if there were academically disciplined for any reason... so by marking "no" you are intentionally lying) because if you hide it and they find out later after you've been admitted, they have every right to kick you out.

I would just mark yes, own up to what you did, what you learned from it and how you will never, ever do it again. Apply to a lot of the lower tier schools and pray like mad you get in.
 
I was suspended from ugrad for a semester (academic performance reasons) and then on academic probation for about every semester after I got back. I put all of this on my AMCAS. Despite this, I've been offered 3 interviews.
 
RxnMan said:
I was suspended from ugrad for a semester (academic performance reasons) and then on academic probation for about every semester after I got back. I put all of this on my AMCAS. Despite this, I've been offered 3 interviews.

Yeah, but at least you weren't a dishonest cheater. Your suspension was not due to reasons of your Honor or character. IMO that's not nearly as a big a deal as getting expelled for lying or cheating.
 
Whoops! Only looked at the thread title.

Umm, I wouldn't say that the OP shouldn't apply - only the ADCOMs can decide what's forgiveable or not. But the OP should definitely think hard about how to put a positive spin on it (I really really wanted to get a good grade for med school) while guarding against a negative response (what if you really really want to test a new drug and patients won't volunteer - will you test them without informing them?) and show that he's not like that immature kid anymore (participated in honor code at school, sat in as student rep on ethics committee hearings, etc).

That is, assuming he's not that kid anymore. It'll be a tough battle. I think it's hard to trust something as anonymous as an AMCAS. The best, first step is to be honest and put it on the applicaton.
 
RxnMan said:
But the OP should definitely think hard about how to put a positive spin on it (I really really wanted to get a good grade for med school)

Man I don't even think there could be a positive spin for cheating. Thats a tough sell even if he applies to any other academic program.

My thought is, be honest, let the adcoms decide. Best way address it is to acknowledge the event, but state their coursework over the past (1-2 years) has been flawless and cheating free. Saying that you cheated because you really really wanted to get an A is BS, even if you mean it. Wanting something means you should prepare for it, rather than cheat your way through. Being kicked for reasons of academic performance is a different issue. The person could have had a bad semester/quarter due to personal reasons, or had to grow up. That can be easily fixed by post-bacc or graduate school.
 
talk about how you were wrong and misguided and stupid and bad and had a lapse of judgement and how you've learned your lesson. "I wanted a good grade for med school" is NOT a positive spin. then hope. this is hard to overcome.
 
How to put a positive spin on cheating if caught:

Secnerios:
1) caught cheating off a student - say you were participating in uninformed cooperative learning---stress uninformed.
2) caught stealing answers from the professor's room - say practical research project to get answers---stress research.
3) caught hacking into prof's computer to get answers - say google brought me here---stress google and brought.
4) caught using notes during exam - say I thought it was an open-book test---stress thought and open-book


Note: Author of this post does not assume any responsibility should these suggestions backfire and possibly result in more severe penalties for being a smart-ass.
 
kicker123 said:
I was wondering if anyone has been accepted to medical schools with a suspension (whether disciplinary suspension or for academic dishonesty) on their transcript. I have been suspended for cheating on my orgo exam so i transferred to a different school and finished my pre-med requirements. do you guys think i should even apply? any advice or success stories would be appreciated.


There is a very simple way to solve this problem. You must have proof of your changed ways. To do this, you could approach a middle school or elementary school and offer to give a speech about how cheating is wrong to some of their students. If you do even three of these speeches to individual classes, the Adcom will say "wow, he really felt bad about what he did and really went out of his way to make sure people did not repeat his mistake." And, of course, I am assuming that the Adcom would be right.

So there it is, speak out about cheating in any way that you can. Write something and publish it in your school paper. Give a speech to children about it. Use yourself as an example.
 
My dorm room neighbor was busted for plagiarizing an entire paper for some class. He was put on probation. Today he's a med student (M2 I believe). I'm not sure if he put this on his application though, so take this example with a grain of salt.

Just out of curiosity, would this type of thing even show up on your transcript or something? Is that how med schools would find out if you tried to hide this incident?
 
If I were reviewing an application like that, they'd be lucky if I read so far as to find out that they made speeches to "make up" for his lack of ethical behavior. That being said, doing PSAs to kids is about the only way I can think of to possibly remedy things.

I'd almost rather read that they were expelled for committing arson at a national monument while drunk, high and in the presence of a known prostitute. At least that could be considered "youthful indescretion".

The only way to really find out what your chances are is to call the admissions office at each school, and find out what they think of things before you apply. Maybe they'll have some suggestions for you.

Best of luck to you.
 
"Positive spin" may have been a poor choice of words. Cheating is cheating and cheating is wrong. You also can't say, "I cheated because I thought it would save the rain forests." I meant to convey the idea that the OP should tell the interviewer that their motivation was something that is not immediately repulsive (I was drinking the night before the exam so I couldn't cram) and tie it into a positive growth experience (i.e. good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement, bad judgement comes from following Rayhan's advice).
 
I do not know of any examples of this, but I agree with the other posters that have suggested it's going to be difficult. Statistically, I have heard that an individual that gets caught cheating once has probably been cheating on numerous other occasions and just not gotten caught. Honesty is the only way to go, and yes, I would ask around at some schools to see how this would be viewed.

to the person who asked how they would find out if you lied about it...some schools may include it on your transcript, i don't know. Our school reports it in the committee letter. Med schools can also ask for the info from your Student Judicial Affairs (or whatever it is.) They might do checks on all students they have accepted, for example.
 
I have been suspended a semester for cheating (I altered an answer on a test that had already been graded and requested a regrade) during my sophomore year (spring 2004). I have since been re-admitted to the same school, now a second semester senior, and will most likely graduate with distinction and honors. Because of the incident, I was advised to wait a year before applying to medical school, and I will start the process this June. I'll have to just wait and see how this turns out, but the experience has changed me, and hopefully I can convey that on my application. For the original poster, I don't know how deciding to transfer will affect your application, but owning up to your mistake and having a strong record since the incident should hopefully speak for itself.
 
nmnrraven said:
There is a very simple way to solve this problem. You must have proof of your changed ways. To do this, you could approach a middle school or elementary school and offer to give a speech about how cheating is wrong to some of their students. If you do even three of these speeches to individual classes, the Adcom will say "wow, he really felt bad about what he did and really went out of his way to make sure people did not repeat his mistake." And, of course, I am assuming that the Adcom would be right.

So there it is, speak out about cheating in any way that you can. Write something and publish it in your school paper. Give a speech to children about it. Use yourself as an example.


i actually think this a really good idea. i would get on this quick....you could probably even give a speech at your own school if you talk to your dean of academics.

out of curiousity....what happened?
 
Don't apply. Or if you are going to apply, put it first and foremost on your AMCAS so that adcomms know what they're getting... you have to be honest about your past, because if you gain admission without telling a med school the complete truth about yourself, you shouldn't be there.
 
Keg said:
Don't apply. Or if you are going to apply, put it first and foremost on your AMCAS so that adcomms know what they're getting... you have to be honest about your past, because if you gain admission without telling a med school the complete truth about yourself, you shouldn't be there.

what he said.
 
Wow, I read all the replies...very very interesting stuff. Not to criticize but gosh, i get paralyzed at the thought of even peeking in some one else's book and I keep thinking the supervisor is somehow going to catch only me and I would be expelled. By way of advice, I would say incorporate it into your personal statement. And make excuses with some sense to them i.e. don't say you had been drunk the previous night and did not study...or something. You can always go with "the person's work was open in front of me and I would have had to close my eys not to see it" but then, they could say you should have done the ethical thing and not written what you wrote. Just curious, exactly how were you caught, and what exactly did you do? I would say, definitely go for that speech thingy..shows rehabilitation and don't forget to mention how your "dreams" of med school were "shelved" for a while when you thought you had forever ruined your chances...this is hoping you haven't forever runined your chances..anyway, best of luck. We all have flaws and admitting them is one big positive step!!!
 
Spend a few thousand and hire a big shot lawyer with connections to the university (ex-president, former Dean of law school, etc...) and see if she can get the cheating charge reduced or eliminated from your record.
 
remo said:
Spend a few thousand and hire a big shot lawyer with connections to the university (ex-president, former Dean of law school, etc...) and see if she can get the cheating charge reduced or eliminated from your record.

Are you serious? He/she/it cheated and got caught and deserves whatever is coming to him/her/... it. Suing a school for prosecuting cheaters isn't going to solve this problem.
 
Keg said:
Are you serious? He/she/it cheated and got caught and deserves whatever is coming to him/her/... it. Suing a school for prosecuting cheaters isn't going to solve this problem.
Where does it say anything about suing? Expunging things from records is done all the time, like in posession charges, etc. It's really not a bad idea.
 
Keg said:
Are you serious? He/she/it cheated and got caught and deserves whatever is coming to him/her/... it. Suing a school for prosecuting cheaters isn't going to solve this problem.

People screw up. Lawyers clean up the mess. Like it or not, that's what they're there for.
 
rajad10 said:
My question is: should I even put this on the AMCAS? And if I do, which I was advised to do, what do I say to put a "positive spin" on it? And thirdly, is this even a big deal to adcoms?

I'd put it in because like with all academic applications, you gotta be honest. At the very least, ethically you should do it.

I'm not too sure how to address this but this is orders of magnitude better than saying you're a convicted felon or was caught cheating on an exam. So for the most part, you could just briefly mention it so they know what the infraction was. Disorderly conduct could be throwing a really loud party too..lol.

But definately address that. I think I saw some study in NEJM (NEJM 2005;353:2673) that physicians who had a past history of disciplinary actions during med school (which is not you) were more likely to have problems as a physician vs. those that did not. Since people do read NEJM, ya never know that some adcom may read that and red flag ya...haha. I doubt it, but ya never know.
 
Speaking from experience, I feel your pain. It sucks to be judged on the one stupid thing you've done and not the millions of other great things you have probably accomplished. During my first year of college some buddies and I pulled some dorm pranks and had plenty of keg parties. At the start of spring semester, we all got put on disciplinary probation and had to do service hours. Turns out that a guy on the same floor who we never met was the grandson of the guy who donated like $1O mil to the school. His grandpa put in a call and the rest was history. I worried about this for 4 years and have talked to the Dean who put me on probation, as well as several admissions deans. The dean of my undergrad institution told me to report it because every year admissions people call and verify the discipline record of the people they accept. Those who are not honest have their acceptance terminated and their name spread around from state school to school. He told me that since I was a stupid 18 year old freshman and the offense was disciplinary and not serious that it shouldn't be a problem. On the contrary, he told me that if it had been academic probation then I would be SOL because in their view, "once a cheater always a cheater." Like stated above, you can't prove that you've been reformed based on not getting in trouble since the incident. Also, you can't prove that you only cheated once. What’s to say that if you were never caught that you would still be cheating, 10 years from now your writing Rx’s to your friends for recreational painkillers, or covering up a medical mistake that you can’t own up to for fear of lawsuits. That’s what they think.

You have several options though: First, you may not have to say anything because it might not be on your record. I forget if AMCAS asks for just institutional action or just academic and disciplinary probation. Can you be suspended with no probation? You might want to check the exact language. Sometimes the offense is expunged after a set period of time. Computer systems are changed and info is left out from past years. Deans are constantly switching schools. It could get lost in the cracks of a large bureaucratic university. I would call and talk to the dean of your undergrad. Maybe, call and say that you work at some college and need to verify the discipline record of an individual.

Secondly, you can do the ethical thing and report it if it is on your record. This is what I did. It’s a double edged sword though. I just got accepted after three years of applying. My other friends involved also applied and had lower stats than I did, but didn't report it. They got accepted their first go round and I didn't. Now I can't say that this is why, but I can say that for the most part, thousands of applicant look the same on paper. Who do you choose? The person with the same stats and experience or the guy with some baggage. The fact that it is on the first page of your AMCAS does you no justice. Once an ADCOM reads this, his mind is tarnished the rest of the way through, if he hasn’t already tossed your app. This is just an easy way to eliminate you from the 5000 other applicants. It really sucks but admissions is a numbers game. Every year that I was rejected, I would go talk to all of the admissions deans. What was the first thing that they brought up? "So, can you explain what happened your freshman year." Some just couldn't get passed it and move on to the rest of my application, while others found it rather amusing; but the fact that they all brought it up worried me. It’s like having a felony conviction or a grammar/typo mistake on a resume. Remember that the crime never gets anyone; it’s the cover-up that will get you. Look at Scooter Libby, Martha Stewart, Pete Rose, Enron, etc. Schools interview applicants based mainly on MCAT and science gpa. You are interviewed to see if you’re an ethical, responsible, accountable, and competent individual who will make the right decision in life or death situations.

Third, if it is on your record than you can choose not to report it. Moreover, you will be asked to report it on most secondary apps which some ask about actions that have been expunged or dropped. What is the probability that someone will call and check up on you? Probably a 25% chance. Assuming your MCAT and gpa are competitive, you can at least get an interview; but if you report it and your app is tossed aside then you will never be interviewed nor given the chance to really shine. Although I was asked about this when I visited or spoke with adcoms, it never came up in any interview. With my luck I would have been the guy who they did a background check on.; but I’m glad that I made the decision that I did. If this is the only thing holding you back then you will get accepted. It just might take longer. Running a marathon is hard enough, but you have to run on one leg. There is an adcom out their that really messed up in his/her young years and was given a second chance that will respect someone who has the courage to admit when they were wrong. Accountability!! Society has a short memory if you confess, but they never forgive the kid who urinates on their foot and tells them it’s raining.

Its your decision and no one can judge you but yourself; I’m sure many of us have cheated or fudged an answer in our life, so lets keep an open mind. Its kinda like when you see baseball players castigating the guy who tests positive when the whole league, including themselves, is on the juice; but assuming you do the ethical thing, here are some things I would do. First, get a lawyer to write your explanation. They are trained in Clinton language and damage control. This should be the only part of your application that it is mentioned. Always stress positives and never talk about your negatives. Do not talk about how you have changed or repented in your personal statement. This seems like the place to fully elaborate on the past and what you have done to repent, but all it will do is continue reinforce the idea of “cheater” in their head. If you get interviewed and someone asks you about it, admit and repent. Have a short and concise statement memorized in advance that your lawyer has approved. Do not try and defend that which is not defensible, or make excuses as to why you choose to do such a stupid thing. If I would of told the dean that I only got put on probation because of that kid’s grandpa, he would of thrown me out.

Second, your letters of recommendation will play a huge part of your application. Get people who know you well and can evaluate you as an ethical person who they would trust their mother under your care.

Third, you let people know who you are by explaining your accomplishments in your interview and your application. Pretty much everyone claims they are a hard worker, highly motivated, compassionate, and intelligent individual, but who really cares. You need to let your skills and experiences convey that you are hard working, etc. Let your essays inadvertently show how you have reformed yourself without stating how you have matured.

Lastly, you need to have something on your application that makes you stand out from the average applicant who has a perfect reputation. The best way to do that would be with a high MCAT and gpa, because this will get you interviewed. Maybe cure cancer. As stated above, I like the idea of talking to children about cheating, but I wouldn’t put it on your application. I would include it your prepared statement. Good luck!!
 
As this thread develops, I am starting to think (not being funny here) that the only way out of this (e.g.: cheating) is to have a complete change in personal identity. Academic records are there for life, just like bad credit. Although a person can reform, the key point is convincing the adcom, and in my opinion, if I was an adcom member, compared to someone who never cheated vs. one that did it once, then I'd go with the one with the clean record...since its just safer. Cheating isn't really an extracurricular or positive personal experience.
 
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