Anyone else interested in Bipolar Treatments?

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postings pretty much speak for themselves...


JennyKim82 said:
Hi,

I was wondering if anyone else is interested in this thread about bipolar treatment.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=225290

I posted about my friend's remarkable recovery from bipolar disorder.
I'd be really interested to get anyone else's input on this topic/treatment.

Thanks and happy posting 🙂
Click to expand...
 
Hey there,

I'm not trying to sell anything. You can believe what you want to believe however. I posted about it twice because I had a feeling my first thread would be shut down because it might be seen as "controversial". I wanted to actually get an answer from anyone so that's why I posted it twice.

If anyone wants to have an open discussion about bipolar treatments I am more than willing to participate.

And to the person who posted in the other thread ( I couldn't answer because my thread got shut down)...about the lack of evidence in regard to EMPower's effectiveness. Well maybe they would have been able to provide evidence if it hadn't been for Health Canada shutting down the study. It's totally bogus. They want evidence that it works but then they shut down the study. What a catch-22.

Health Canada as a matter of fact tried to ban EMPower from being brought into Canada. I wonder why. Could it be that EMPower might threaten the profits of the drug companies? Could it be that Health Canada is being bullied into trying to ban the stuff? I wonder. Makes sense to me.

When EMPower was being denied access at the border you better believe there were a lot of people on the phone to health Canada and local MPs raising a big stink. And rightly so. When EMPower was being denied access at the border Health Canada set up a crisis line telling people who to get in touch with in case of emergency, that is to say they are to go see a psychiatrist. Read: they are to get back on their meds.

You have to understand that EMPower has given me my life back and yet Health Canada was denying me the very thing that is helping keep me healthy. I would love to think that Health Canada is on my side; that they want me to get well and stay well but I'm not so sure anymore.

Why would they be so opposed to something as simple as a vitamin-mineral supplement? Why do they find it so threatening? Why were they telling me to ditch it and get back on the lithium, the paxil, the sleeping pills, etc? Doesn't make sense to me. Seems to me if they weren't really threatened they wouldn't have made such a big deal of it all (and continue to make such a big fuss).

If you read my post and you still think I'm selling something that's fine. I think you've just mistaken my passion for an alterior motive. Naturally I am wanting to discuss something that has helped me so much. That's part of what makes me human.
 
Forgot to mention that my when I was referring to my "friend" in my other post I was obviously talking about myself.

Why didn't I just come out and talk about myself? Well...I posted previously about my experiences with bipolar diagnosis and the tread was shut down. I asked how accurate a diagnosis of bipolar is. For some reason (which is totally beyond me) the thread got shut down.

Someone in the original thread about EMPower posted that you can't ask for medical advice. I want to make it clear that I was not in my previous thread, nor this thread, ever asking for medical advice, or otherwise. I do not need advice. What I had hoped for was some discussion.
 
charlatan
 
All I was saying was there are successful alternatives to psychiatric meds. If a patient is responding (i.e. the meds are actually working) to psychiatric meds then by all means I would say that the patient should stick with a successful treatment. If the patient is like me, however, and meds don't work there are alternatives. EMPower is proving very successful. That was my point, plain and simple.

You know, calling me a charlatan, or throwing any other name at me won't change the fact that EMPower has helped me. And it won't change the fact that it is helping a lot of people.
 
OldPsychDoc said:
Yeah--and I'll bet you a month's supply of EMPower that "JennyKim" and "SteJacR2Turbo98" are the same person...
Click to expand...


Good call OPD

JeenyKim = Charlatan
SteJacR2Turbo98 = Shill

I generally enjoy a good classic, but <yawn> this is amateur hour snake oil sales.
 
Thank you all for your candid and thoughtful responses. I appreciate it that you have taken the time to research this subject.

Since you're just name calling anyway (isn't that against forum rules?*gasp*) I'll close the thread now.

Thank you and GOOD LUCK with all of that! 🙂
 
JennyKim82 said:
All I was saying was there are successful alternatives to psychiatric meds. If a patient is responding (i.e. the meds are actually working) to psychiatric meds then by all means I would say that the patient should stick with a successful treatment. If the patient is like me, however, and meds don't work there are alternatives. EMPower is proving very successful. That was my point, plain and simple.

You know, calling me a charlatan, or throwing any other name at me won't change the fact that EMPower has helped me. And it won't change the fact that it is helping a lot of people.
Click to expand...

OK--a serious response here.

First, I never tell my patients NOT to take a nutritional supplement along with their meds, as long as I have some idea of what's in it. Vitamins, minerals, omega-3 fatty acids--all good. However, if it has anything with stimulant properties--e.g ephedra, or even a lot of caffeine--they're not going to have mood stability, and in the case of the former, might even die.

Second, I looked at the EMPower website you linked. The "research" cited there consists of 2 open trials (i.e. not blinded placebo-controlled studies) with fewer than 20 patients each, 1 letter to the editor reporting a third, privately run open trial, 1 case report with 2 patients, and a "commentary".
Compare this to, say 50 years of clinical trials on lithium, and you'll understand why we're skeptical. (And please spare me the standard "Pharma-government conspiracy" line about further research being supressed, etc. First off, there's not a heckuva lot of money to be made off of lithium anymore, and second, if this stuff could really cure treatment-resistant psychiatric disease, they'd be all over it to make a buck off of it!)

Finally, I suspect that if this stuff (and this stuff alone) made you better, that you didn't have a true bipolar illness, but I'm not going to diagnose you over the internet. If one of my true bipolars were skipping their meds and substituing a nutritional supplement, I'd be danged worried that they were going to end up in the hospital (if they got there in time). And I would owe them nothing less than a demonstrated, time-tested, standard of care treatment. EMPower is not.

Have a nice day.
 
25 ways to spot a Quack

One of my favorites is #23. Claims of persecution (ie Canadian health board) by orthodox medicine.
 
Dear OldPsychDoc,

I’m glad you are encouraging your patients to take nutritional supplements. I would never claim that ephedra has a positive effect on anyone, let alone someone with bipolar disorder. You’re correct that caffeine in particular can have a detrimental effect on those with mood disorders. I’m glad to hear that you are encouraging your patients to take positive steps toward wellness. Perhaps you might like to check out a book about alternative treatments for bipolar disorder (if you haven't already done so) entitled: "The Natural Medicine Guide to Bipolar Disorder" (by Stephanie Marohn). I found this book very interesting and helpful.

Anyhow, if you look at the ingredients in EMPower you will note that the supplement doesn’t include caffeine or ephedra or any other “stimulating” ingredients.

I’m glad you checked out the True Hope website. I did notice, however, that you totally glossed over my previous post in which I stated that Health Canada did in fact shut down the double-blind study. I know that anedoctal evidence doesn't prove anything but what else can we go on when the government shuts down the study? This is not "Pharma-Government Conspiracy"as you say -- this is the reality of the situation.

Speaking of double-blind studies you might be interested in reading up on the Pharmaceutical companies' "research". I use the term "research" loosely as their studies are so flawed they are not even worthy of the term. Their approach to the "research" is to manipulate the data in order to get the results they want. And why do they do this? To get drugs out on the market as fast as possible. Why? I believe the word we are looking for here is greed. Perhaps you might like to check out a book entitled "The Truth about the Drug Companies: How they deceive us and what to do about it" by Dr. Marcia Angell. Or perhaps you might like to check out "Let them eat Prozac" by Dr. David Healy. I'm reading that one myself right now, it's very interesting. You might also like to check out "Mad In America: Bad Science, Bad Medicine, and the Enduring Mistreatment of the Mentally Ill" by Robert Whitaker. Or how about the "Anti-depressant Fact Book" by Peter R. Breggin; that one's an interesting read, particularly the sections on Prozac induced suicides and antidepressant induced mania.

I might also add, while on the topic of evidence and research there is no solid proof that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. I'm sure you know that the verdict is still out on that theory. In fact, it is like a lot of things in psychiatry: pure speculation. And I might also point out that there is also no proof that antidepressants are necessarily the best treatment (please see again the section on antidepressant induced suicides and mania.)

When you say that the drug companies don't make a whole lot of money off of lithium I'd have to agree with you there. But being a psychiatrst you probably know that lithium is not the mainstay treatment for bipolar disorder. Many (if not most) people with bipolar disorder end up on numerous psych meds: I'd know as I started on one and ended up on four. In fact the term "cocktail" is regularly employed when describing bipolar treatment with psychiatric meds. One medication does not a cocktail make.

Perhaps you had Dr. Ronald Fieve's book "Moodswing" in mind when you were discussing lithium in your post. Dr. Fieve has the arrogance to actually call lithium a "remarkable cure". I am not sure what "cure" he is speaking of here but I'm sure it can't be the same drug I took, the same drug that lost its effectiveness despite the fact that I took it exactly as prescribed. There are a whole lot of people out there who don't respond to lithium, or who, like me it loses its effectiveness. But I guess you here on the forum know that looking at a patient's "cocktail", which more often than not consists of anti-convulsant mood-stabilizers, antipsychotics, antidepressants and (sometimes) sleeping pills. I might also point out that Dr. Fieve's book was published in 1975 and a whole lot has been written since then. So you're right, the drug companies aren't making money off of the lithium, the money is in the cocktail.

I think you've also glossed over a hugely important fact, and that is: vitamins and minerals can't be patented. So therefore the drug companies do not stand to make any money off of EMPower. Could they be worried that EMPower might replace their expensive pharmaceuticals? I'd imagine so.

And in regards to the accuracy of my diagnosis. Well, as I'm sure you know a diagnosis isn't always 100% accurate but I've been diagnosed with bipolar II disorder on numerous occasions by psychiatrists. And I've suffered manic episodes and countless major depressive episodes. I've also been hositalized but I'm doing better now, thanks to - you guessed it - EMPower. You see, I really can't win here - you say EMPower doesn't work and I tell you it's working for me and you in turn tell me I must not actually have bipolar disorder! What a catch-22.

You have a nice day too.
 
Hey y'all,
Id have to agree with oldpsychdoc here. I looked at the website and tried to be open-minded, but the research is just not there. I don't dismiss anything just off the bat but lets get serious here.
As a bipolar med student applying to residencies, I have a little bit of experience, anecdotal though it may be. Lithium and depakote saved my life. I would caution my future bipolar patients against experimenting with these kind of hokey (scuse the language) "treatments." It is downright dangerous to do these things without the assistance of a doctor. As for the rant on the linked thread about pharmaceutical companies and money....I think it's a lot more complicated than described. I, for one, am damn glad pharmaceutical companies are working hard to find me a better combination of drugs that won't leave me fat and tremulous (although, sane! 😱 )
-crazydoc77

OldPsychDoc said:
OK--a serious response here.

First, I never tell my patients NOT to take a nutritional supplement along with their meds, as long as I have some idea of what's in it. Vitamins, minerals, omega-3 fatty acids--all good. However, if it has anything with stimulant properties--e.g ephedra, or even a lot of caffeine--they're not going to have mood stability, and in the case of the former, might even die.

Second, I looked at the EMPower website you linked. The "research" cited there consists of 2 open trials (i.e. not blinded placebo-controlled studies) with fewer than 20 patients each, 1 letter to the editor reporting a third, privately run open trial, 1 case report with 2 patients, and a "commentary".
Compare this to, say 50 years of clinical trials on lithium, and you'll understand why we're skeptical. (And please spare me the standard "Pharma-government conspiracy" line about further research being supressed, etc. First off, there's not a heckuva lot of money to be made off of lithium anymore, and second, if this stuff could really cure treatment-resistant psychiatric disease, they'd be all over it to make a buck off of it!)

Finally, I suspect that if this stuff (and this stuff alone) made you better, that you didn't have a true bipolar illness, but I'm not going to diagnose you over the internet. If one of my true bipolars were skipping their meds and substituing a nutritional supplement, I'd be danged worried that they were going to end up in the hospital (if they got there in time). And I would owe them nothing less than a demonstrated, time-tested, standard of care treatment. EMPower is not.

Have a nice day.
Click to expand...
 
Quack Argument #4 They Say That Most Diseases Are Due to Faulty Diet and Can Be Treated with "Nutritional" Methods.

This simply isn't so. Consult your doctor or any recognized textbook of medicine. They will tell you that although diet is a factor in some diseases (most notably coronary heart disease), most diseases have little or nothing to do with diet. Common symptoms like malaise (feeling poorly), fatigue, lack of pep, aches (including headaches) or pains, insomnia, and similar complaints are usually the body's reaction to emotional stress. The persistence of such symptoms is a signal to see a doctor to be evaluated for possible physical illness. It is not a reason to take vitamin pills.

Quack Argument #23 Their Work Is Being Suppressed Because It's Controversial

The "conspiracy charge" is an attempt to gain sympathy by portraying the quack as an "underdog." Quacks typically claim that the American Medical Association is against them because their cures would cut into the incomes that doctors make by keeping people sick. Don't fall for such nonsense! Reputable physicians are plenty busy. Moreover, many doctors engaged in prepaid health plans, group practice, full-time teaching, and government service receive the same salary whether or not their patients are sick—so keeping their patients healthy reduces their workload, not their income.

Quacks also claim there is a "controversy" about facts between themselves and "the bureaucrats," organized medicine, or "the establishment." They clamor for medical examination of their claims, but ignore any evidence that refutes them. The gambit "Do you believe in vitamins?" is another tactic used to increase confusion. Everyone knows that vitamins are needed by the human body. The real question is "Do you need additional vitamins beyond those in a well-balanced diet?" For most people, the answer is no. Nutrition is a science, not a religion. It is based upon matters of fact, not questions of belief.

Any physician who found a vitamin or other preparation that could cure sterility, heart disease, arthritis, cancer, or the like, could make an enormous fortune. Patients would flock to such a doctor (as they now do to those who falsely claim to cure such problems), and colleagues would shower the doctor with awards—including the extremely lucrative Nobel Prize! And don't forget, doctors get sick, too. Do you believe they would conspire to suppress cures for diseases that also afflict them and their loved ones? When polio was conquered, iron lungs became virtually obsolete, but nobody resisted this advancement because it would force hospitals to change. And neither will scientists mourn the eventual defeat of cance
 
I agree whole heartedly with jennykim. diet is eveything.
I've been diagnosed as bipolar and have experienced manic, and major major depression.
ssri's, dari's are known to fix the symptoms but not the problem, as 5H1AA goes down as seratonin goes up while taking these drugs.
Everybodies need for vitamins, and minerals can vary greatly especialy from one race to another. In todays society people that are suposed to get more of certain viamins or minerals might not get them due to the diet of the place they currently live. In Australia for example in the mainland where the aboriginals live out of 100000 people nobody has schizophrenia, or bipolar, and these people eat exactly what there ancestors ate. When you got to the shores of Australia in the big cities the rate of these diseases is equal to that of North America. It could be because of survival of the fitest as every person with a mental disease has killed themselves off or, diet. It is known that everybodies need for vitamins and minerals is different. so If somebody that needs a lot of say vitamin b6, b12 wasnt getting enough, or they wern't getting enough tryptophan, or phenylaline, then wouldn't there searonin, dopamine levels deplete. Of course they would, and if a stressfull situation happened then there body wouldn't have what it needed to handle the stress, sending the body into fight or flight easier. I know personally with myself after I had a lot if stress I fell into a huge depression. DHEA was at 5.3umol, and cortisol was at 333NMOL/L which is low for someone 22 years old. Less glucocorticoids means the hippocampus could reduce the memory resources available to formulate and appropriate stress response. When ever my seratonin, dopamine levels wen't up I felt better but had a lot of side effects, but as dopamine went up, nor epinephrine went up causing my entire HPA axis to go up therefor I could handle stress again. So to get seratonin, dopamine up why not take the amino acids that are precursers to seratonin along with the vitamins that transport these amino acids, and fix any deficiencies in minerals too support good brain function?

And also to think that the goverment would never hurt people to benifit the economy is completly naive, you only have to look at wars that take place, or took place that brought countries out of depressions to realize that government cares more about jobs, and the economy then doing whats morraly right, or killing people.
 
Wow, how far did you have to go back to dredge up this thread? It's pretty darn old.
 
haha, ya I just realized this, I came across it while searching about empower on yahoo
 
lacey23, Thought I'd letcha know that I'm also diagnose of having Bipolar... I have the mania side... It's great to hear that people are willing to talk about it... especially on this forum...

I'm currently taking ZERO drugs... What works for me is Meditate, exercise, eating healthy and not but least the pleasurable feeling of sex.

If you wanna be SDN buddies (I feel that we will become very good buddies) feel free to send me an PM...
 
This is great, wow you guys really attract the creme of the crop!!!! Sazi?? come on man shut this carnival down. 😎
 
I feel no real and true reason why this topic shouls be shut down.
 
Same person, signing in multiple times under different names trying to sell an unproven supplement to treat a major mental illness...ya no problem. 😉
 
why shut it down? I don't get ya. I'm not saying psychiatry dosn't have a place. I've read some cognitive therapy books, and they make sense. Your thoughts determine your mood. And your mood is determined by the levels of seratonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, therefore thoughs determine your chemical levels but I'm just saying deficiencies in vitamins, minerals, and amino acids that are involved in producing these neurotransmitters could cause a decrease in mood, and higher suseptibility to stress related depression.

and hey how ya doin psisci, it good to see someone else whose bipolar dosn't take drugs.
 
If this post survives perhaps I will tell you why "levels" of serotonin, NE and DA are marketing ploys designed to make non science folks think they understand neurochemistry. How do you measure such levels, I know, do you? Keep in mind it is meaningless. How long does a serotonin, NE, DA receptor live? What is binding affinity, what is reuptake inhibition, what is the role of serotonin neurons in the CNS? I ask these not to tell you that I know something, but to see if you have any answers for VERY simple questions regarding your last post about neurotransmitters. How drugs work is MUCH more complicated than this..... I gave you some teasers at the very tip of the iceburg.😎
 
lacey23 said:
and hey how ya doin psisci, it good to see someone else whose bipolar dosn't take drugs.
Click to expand...

Psisci, you have a bipolar too? What do you have them do for you? Do you keep them in your basement, or your tower keep?
 
When they are manic I have them clean, shop and perform other necessary functions as per Anuwolf's post, but when they are depressed they go to their caskets!!! LOL😀

For what it is worth I neither own nor cultivate bipolars........😎
 
see I took seroquel, for 2 years not knowing exactly what it did but feeling a bit better not near a hunfred percent, I believe it works now kinda int he same way as reuptake inhibitors for seratonin dopamine, and thus nor- ep, by fooling your brain into thinking it needs more of one of the neurotransmitters. as for how long does it live for, I'm guessing about as long as some one would feel the effects of cocaine, so maybe an hour. see what i know is that when i started looking into alternatives I tried 5htp, and l-tyrosin, and they worked great, and as they are precursers to seratonin, and dopamine.so I don't see how they would be meaningless. the only problem is that I couldn't sleep, and I believe this was because when the amino acid tryptophan is takin then it turmns into seratonin at certain times of the day and melatonin at others dependant on biological clock, and maybe 5htp was past the step that could be turned into melatonin. I know personally the only time I was manic was when I used to work out and ate like 3-400 grams of protein a day, wihtout taking any vitamins, or minerals, so maybe a deficiency in minerals, and vitamins, allowed me to go manic as I had all this tryptophan, and phenalalyine in my sysytem. I'm not claiming to know more then you I'm just trying to connect all the dots of when I'm manic, and when I'm depressed, and possible reasons. If you would enlighten me on your levels of seratonin, dopamine, and nor adrenaline that wopuld be appreciated, and hey anuwolf
 
Folks, this isn't a bipolar support board. There are plenty of sites for that.

It's bordering too closely on medical advice and personal support, which is against the Terms of Service of SDN.

Closing.
 
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