Anyone have any opinions on the MN programs?

[nighthawk2551]

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I'm looking to stay in the midwest and I interviewed at all 3 MN programs (Mayo, U of M, HCMC/Regions). I liked them all to certain degrees, and each had pros and cons. I'm finishing up my rank list and trying to sort out in which order I want these programs. I want to do some research during residency (I think), but I don't want to end up as a primary researcher in a big academic program. I'm interested in consults and maybe TMS so I'd like a program that has opportunities in these. Therapy's not super important to me but I would appreciate good therapy training. Anyone interview at any of the MN programs have some thoughts on them? Thanks.

 

[slappy]

None of them are great programs (although I only know Mayo through a trainee and HCMC through a trainee and a faculty member, and U of M indirectly through them), but if you need to stay in MN, you'd be better off ranking Mayo first, then U of M, then HCMC.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I wrote this 11 years ago--it's still true:

I think that if you went to a Minnesota Psychiatric Society meeting, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between a psychiatrist who trained at Mayo vs. the U vs. Hennepin.
All three programs offer fine clinical training. The U will be stronger in pure academic areas, Mayo in certain clinical areas and maybe "international reputation" (whatever that is--brand name recognition, mostly), and Hennepin in community psychiatry.
The 2 metro programs allow you to live and work in Mpls/St.Paul and enjoy urban or suburban life (if that's your thing), and Mayo allows you the more mid-sized Midwest experience of Rochester, if that's your thing.

Bottom line, all three will train you well. Each program has its own culture and distinctives, and you should judge for yourself where you best fit.

 

[DisorderedDoc417]

None of them are great programs (although I only know Mayo through a trainee and HCMC through a trainee and a faculty member, and U of M indirectly through them), but if you need to stay in MN, you'd be better off ranking Mayo first, then U of M, then HCMC.

What’s great? I know some fantastic psychiatrists who trained through the U of MN and HCMC. It’s a fine place to train in psychiatry.

 

[Seroquel]

None of them are great programs (although I only know Mayo through a trainee and HCMC through a trainee and a faculty member, and U of M indirectly through them), but if you need to stay in MN, you'd be better off ranking Mayo first, then U of M, then HCMC.

What are you basing your conclusion on? To the OP, I was in the exact same position last year and DisorderedDoc417 answered it very well so I've copied his/her answer below. For you specifically, if research is very important to you then I would probably rank Mayo first. That is the one area I would say Mayo is better at than the other two. I personally ended up going with my favorite of the three, HCMC, which has been a superb experience thus far. I am also interested in some research although not super academic and there are opportunities at HCMC (you just have to do more legwork). I should add, the consults service at HCMC (and Regions by extension) is amazing. Two of the consult psychiatrists, Drs. Colon and Rasimas, are also extremely talented and amazing at what they do. Dr. Colon is also the department chair.

1) HCMC will offer what appears to be the most robust foundationg with which to build a clinical acumen. Hard to argue with 200 beds, newer facilities, etc. No doubt a solid training, you will leave unafraid to work anywhere in the world. It is unbelievable how much one can learn spending one month in the HCMC ED. Furthermore, it would be quite feasible to find housing between the hcmc and regions hospital. Commute isn't something I think you should be super concerned about (10-15 minute commute). If this is a big deal though, I mean no disrespect and thats totally cool! I think the one drawback here would be for those who desire to be the future of academia. This program is quality without the name brand. HCMC proudly advertises that they are about training excellent community docs vs. academicians. I think the PD really will try and cater to whatever you're looking for though, research included.

2) Lets face it.... Mayo's reputation isn't due to its psychiatry department historically speaking. Training in surgery or medicine subspecialties? I totally get it. But it is a little lost on me why this program is considered by many top candidates, while the other sites are forgotten alltogether. For those who value a brand name above all else, I suppose it does hold this, and a major advantage to this program will of course include the doorway it provides into research and an academic career. No doubt you will brush shoulders with some amazingly intelligent faculty, but you are still in Rochester, MN.

3) You still have to commute to Minneapolis and to Fort Snelling. Once again, I believe living somewhere strategically between Mpls and St. Paul can mitigate most meaningful differences in commute. I truly wouldn't let commute hold you back from the U of Mn or HCMC. The VA you'll work with is class leading for sure -- which means access to some impressive addictions/ptsd research if that is your jam. The hardest part with the U is the amount of faculty turnover in the past few years, lots of great folks have been lost. A promising new chair, from the bay area, will have an opportunity to do big things with this program IMO, but this takes time, trialing, and recruiting new faculty.

 

[nighthawk2551]

Just to clarify my opinions on the programs, and hopefully elicit some commentary:

Mayo:
Pros: Best brand name, which isn't important to me except if I want to go for a more competitive fellowship/location. Easiest program to do some research, tons of resources and projects and a nice "research track" where you get one day per week of 3rd year and as much as you want 4th year for research. World class C/L and off-service learning. Very good didactics. In-house fellowships. Most diverse elective opportunities.
Cons: Heavy call schedule, and the only program I saw where they still had call 4th year. 6 months of 4th year is required inpatient/ECT, so relatively little elective time. Seemed like the psychiatry services were more "resident run", which just translated to more work and hours. Very low diversity of patients and poor community psychiatry learning. Rochester is not the best place to live.
Overall: Really good for brand name and academics, not super great on community or general psych training.

U of MN:
Pros: Schedule is very nice, no call after year 2. Decent research opportunities and didactics. Middle of the road as far as academic center vs community psych. New psychiatry chair seems ambitious and is bringing in a lot of great research. VA is doing a lot of cool psych research and has great gero and addictions experiences. The Twin Cities are great and I will probably end up practicing there.
Cons: Medicine, Neuro, and consults are all at the VA. I am interested in consults so this is a big deal for me. It seems like the medicine, neuro, and consult experiences would be pretty sub-par and limited to a very specific population. I didn't get a lot of concrete examples as to electives people had done, and it seemed like if a resident had an interest in a lesser known area of psych, e.g. perinatal psych, they had to work really hard to get elective time in that.
Overall: Sort of the "average" between the 3 MN programs, not the best at anything but also not the worst. My major hang-up is the amount of VA training. If anyone has any opinions on this I would love to hear them because it is the main factor making me not sure U of MN is my #1.

HCMC:
Pros: Excellent medicine, neuro, and consult training. By far the best I saw anywhere I interviewed at across the midwest, probably beating Mayo. Mayo will have more zebras, but HCMC has an incredible range and severity of illnesses as a level 1 trauma and burn center and major community hospital. Excellent community psych, and you see the really sick patients.
Cons: Almost every HCMC patient has significant social issues (poverty, homelessness, substance abuse) that make psychiatry treatment very difficult. Low-prestige program, so some fellowships may be hard to obtain. No research going on. Residents and faculty all thought the outpatient experience was relatively weak, and many did not feel prepared for an outpatient practice. One interviewer literally could not list a strength of the program. It was a weird experience because HCMC definitely has some objective strengths, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.
Overall: If I knew I wanted to only do community psych this would be my #1 no doubt.

 

[slappy]

Just to clarify my opinions on the programs, and hopefully elicit some commentary:

Mayo:
Pros: Best brand name, which isn't important to me except if I want to go for a more competitive fellowship/location. Easiest program to do some research, tons of resources and projects and a nice "research track" where you get one day per week of 3rd year and as much as you want 4th year for research. World class C/L and off-service learning. Very good didactics. In-house fellowships. Most diverse elective opportunities.
Cons: Heavy call schedule, and the only program I saw where they still had call 4th year. 6 months of 4th year is required inpatient/ECT, so relatively little elective time. Seemed like the psychiatry services were more "resident run", which just translated to more work and hours. Very low diversity of patients and poor community psychiatry learning. Rochester is not the best place to live.
Overall: Really good for brand name and academics, not super great on community or general psych training.

U of MN:
Pros: Schedule is very nice, no call after year 2. Decent research opportunities and didactics. Middle of the road as far as academic center vs community psych. New psychiatry chair seems ambitious and is bringing in a lot of great research. VA is doing a lot of cool psych research and has great gero and addictions experiences. The Twin Cities are great and I will probably end up practicing there.
Cons: Medicine, Neuro, and consults are all at the VA. I am interested in consults so this is a big deal for me. It seems like the medicine, neuro, and consult experiences would be pretty sub-par and limited to a very specific population. I didn't get a lot of concrete examples as to electives people had done, and it seemed like if a resident had an interest in a lesser known area of psych, e.g. perinatal psych, they had to work really hard to get elective time in that.
Overall: Sort of the "average" between the 3 MN programs, not the best at anything but also not the worst. My major hang-up is the amount of VA training. If anyone has any opinions on this I would love to hear them because it is the main factor making me not sure U of MN is my #1.

HCMC:
Pros: Excellent medicine, neuro, and consult training. By far the best I saw anywhere I interviewed at across the midwest, probably beating Mayo. Mayo will have more zebras, but HCMC has an incredible range and severity of illnesses as a level 1 trauma and burn center and major community hospital. Excellent community psych, and you see the really sick patients.
Cons: Almost every HCMC patient has significant social issues (poverty, homelessness, substance abuse) that make psychiatry treatment very difficult. Low-prestige program, so some fellowships may be hard to obtain. No research going on. Residents and faculty all thought the outpatient experience was relatively weak, and many did not feel prepared for an outpatient practice. One interviewer literally could not list a strength of the program. It was a weird experience because HCMC definitely has some objective strengths, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.
Overall: If I knew I wanted to only do community psych this would be my #1 no doubt.

I was going to type an answer to the questions about why I thought none of the programs were great then I saw this post that basically answered it for me. Your impressions conform with everything I've heard about these three programs (I've bolded the bits that rang particularly true).

 

[nighthawk2551]

Anyone have an opinion on the amount of VA training at the U of MN program? Medicine, Neuro, and consults are all solely at the VA. I feel like this would lead to a very heterogeneous population and limited exposure to these areas.

 

[Merovinge]

Anyone have an opinion on the amount of VA training at the U of MN program? Medicine, Neuro, and consults are all solely at the VA. I feel like this would lead to a very heterogeneous population and limited exposure to these areas.

I wouldnt bat an eye at Medicine/Neuro at the VA. They will be all academic clinicians anyway, and heart failure and strokes are just as boring in civilians as they are in vets. Off service certainly has some value, but where it is occurring it not going to hugely impact your career as a psychiatrist.

C/L on the other hand is a bit of a downer to only be at a VA and probably is an educational opportunity lost. That said, most psychiatrists do no CL in their day-to-day. If you happen to want to do CL and are not going to do a fellowship, this would be a minus for me about the program but one that is possibly replacement with an elective. Not sure the specifics of UofM's electives however.

 

[DisorderedDoc417]

Neuro Clinicians at the VA are nice and very knowledgeable. The rotation isn't bad at all for the residents, similar expectations to med students. Get maybe a few consults a day. The Neuro resident you rotate with carries more responsibility. Lots of time for didactic chalk talks and such. Its the neuro rotation in medical school to do if you don't like neuro basically.

 

[DisorderedDoc417]

Internal medicine on the other hand is great! Lots of smokers with COPD, chronic medical problems in addition to their comorbid psych problems. A great population to learn internal medicine from. Overall, you're going to get what you need, and you can seek out opportunities for C/L if thats your jam.

 

[DisorderedDoc417]

I wouldn't let the neuro and medicine experiences dictate where you attend residency. In all actuality, it will be a blip in your training. Its important to know the psych things that overlap with neuro, and which are caused by neuro. Same for medicine. Then move on.

 

[notdeadyet]

Late to this conversation, but I have a couple of thoughts. I’m a CA person but have kept tabs on MN as a potential place to relocate since my wife’s people are there and I think Minneapolis is one of the most underrated cities in the country with some of the nicest folks. The fact that I could potentially buy something resembling a department store for what I’d pay for a starter home here probably influences that...

1. Mayo. I believe that the Mayo name burns brightest the earlier you are in training. College students and med students (to some degree) seem enamored, but I think that’s mostly based on the reputation (or branding) of the medical center as a tertiary care center (which I think has been weakened a bit with all the satellite endeavors). The residency programs are varied in quality. Mayo’s C/L training is quite strong, but it comes at a BIG cost if you have interest in veterans health or community public health or working with the poor. I think it’s a fine overall residency program, but while the reputation might impress your aunt or uncle, it’s not going to particularly impress fellowship directors or future employers much. Mayo’s fine, but I’d be cautious to make sure you are interested in the specific features of the program and not overestimate the name value. I’d also be sure to visit Rochester and make sure it’s to your liking.

2. Hennepin- This is a strong community-based program with excellent facilities. You’ll get excellent all-around training here and be well-prepared for working in most environments. I’m honestly least familiar with this program but have heard nothing but good things even out in CA.

3. UM- This would likely be my pick based on your interests. I would have no problems with the fact that the Med/Neuro rotations are at the VA there. There’s an expression, “If you’ve seen one VA, you’ve seen one VA.” All are not created equal and the one affiliated with MN is extremely strong. You will get more bread and butter Med/Neuro there than at Mayo, but I would argue that bread and butter is not a problem for Med/Neuro months. You’re a psychiatrist. That’s plenty. By day 28 of your second internal medicine month, you don’t get many psych interns saying, “man, I wish I had more zebras.” UM has good research opportunities and it’s gotten more money for it recently. For the sake of full disclosure, I worked with UM’s current chair a fair bit when she was a leader where I was a resident and Chief. She is a strong resident advocate and a biggie in her field. I think she added to UM in a positive way.

So for someone with your interests, I don’t see a lot of pull to Mayo unless you have ties to Rochester or some affinity to the area or you have a very well-visualized research plan that would benefit from specific faculty there (are you an MD/PhD or have you contacted Mayo about hooking up with someone for a research track?). If those don’t apply to you, I’d likely go to UM or Hennepin. You’ll get great training at either.