Anyone worked for a primary care clinic? Experiences?

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zurned

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Hi all,

I am considering picking up a moonlighting gig for a primary care clinic. The clinic is run by an IM doc and sees typical primary care stuff (annual physicals, diabetes and HTN management, referrals to specialists, maybe some urgent care stuff, etc) I have no primary care experience and haven't ever worked in an outpatient clinic (ABEM boarded and have only worked in EDs)

Has any EM-trained physicians here tried this? Is it too much of a malpractice risk practicing primary care if I am only boarded in EM? I am pretty sure I can learn on the job and can research anything I don't know. Anyone with experience please share! Thanks
 
I have ALWAYS told pts that I am NOT a primary care doc. I'm the first chapter in any book, or the first 20 minutes of any movie (and the only first 20 minutes worth a damn was "Saving Private Ryan"). What did Hattie McDaniel say in "Gone With The Wind" - "I don't know nothin' about birthin' no babies"? I don't know nothin' about primary care. No HTN guidelines, no vaccine schedules, no outpatient antidepressants, no birth control, nothin'!

We weren't trained for that, so, at least, for me, I would not feel comfortable doing that, and, I believe, is neither fair nor equitable to the pts. Again, though, that is for me.
 
Hi all,

I am considering picking up a moonlighting gig for a primary care clinic. The clinic is run by an IM doc and sees typical primary care stuff (annual physicals, diabetes and HTN management, referrals to specialists, maybe some urgent care stuff, etc) I have no primary care experience and haven't ever worked in an outpatient clinic (ABEM boarded and have only worked in EDs)

Has any EM-trained physicians here tried this? Is it too much of a malpractice risk practicing primary care if I am only boarded in EM? I am pretty sure I can learn on the job and can research anything I don't know. Anyone with experience please share! Thanks

I am curious: at what stage of your career are you considering this? and why?

For the record, I think it's a bad idea at any stage of one's career. I'd do urgent care or telehealth before primary care. We just aren't trained for it.
 
I am curious: at what stage of your career are you considering this? and why?

For the record, I think it's a bad idea at any stage of one's career. I'd do urgent care or telehealth before primary care. We just aren't trained for it.

Still kind of in the beginning of my career. Not doing this due to burnout or wanting to switch. A clinic in my local neighborhood is needing some additional help and I know the IM doc personally (from outside of medicine)
 
Still kind of in the beginning of my career. Not doing this due to burnout or wanting to switch. A clinic in my local neighborhood is needing some additional help and I know the IM doc personally (from outside of medicine)

Beginning of your career like still in residency?

And they want you to do this? You want to do this?
 
I have ALWAYS told pts that I am NOT a primary care doc. I'm the first chapter in any book, or the first 20 minutes of any movie (and the only first 20 minutes worth a damn was "Saving Private Ryan"). What did Hattie McDaniel say in "Gone With The Wind" - "I don't know nothin' about birthin' no babies"? I don't know nothin' about primary care. No HTN guidelines, no vaccine schedules, no outpatient antidepressants, no birth control, nothin'!

We weren't trained for that, so, at least, for me, I would not feel comfortable doing that, and, I believe, is neither fair nor equitable to the pts. Again, though, that is for me.

I know I'm being anal here but...
For the record, it was Butterfly McQueen that said, "I don't know nothin about bout birthin' no babies."
 
Beginning of your career like still in residency?

And they want you to do this? You want to do this?

Attending for several years. Clinic only needs couple of shifts a month.

Yea, they want to hire me for this. I'm thinking of trying it for a little while.

But just wondering if it's completely a no-no for me to do primary care with EM training, or if others have done it and it was fine after the initial learning curve.
 
I have ALWAYS told pts that I am NOT a primary care doc. I'm the first chapter in any book, or the first 20 minutes of any movie (and the only first 20 minutes worth a damn was "Saving Private Ryan"). What did Hattie McDaniel say in "Gone With The Wind" - "I don't know nothin' about birthin' no babies"? I don't know nothin' about primary care. No HTN guidelines, no vaccine schedules, no outpatient antidepressants, no birth control, nothin'!

We weren't trained for that, so, at least, for me, I would not feel comfortable doing that, and, I believe, is neither fair nor equitable to the pts. Again, though, that is for me.

In the same way we're always telling IM/FP/surgery/interventional dermatological reconstructive surgery they can't practice in the ER and do well, I would say we are not trained and equipped to do well in primary care. There is very much a misconception that primary care is "easy" or a base specialty that other specialties build off. This is not the case. Primary care is it's own specialty and there are many facets of it that you are not adequately trained in unless you have had some significant other training and experience outside the standard med school and EM training pathways.

The misses might not be as conspicuous as EM (missed aortic dissection in chest pain patient goes home and dies) but they are equally real. If you fail to offer age appropriate cancer screening to a patient presenting for adult health maintenance and years later they are found to have an advanced widely metastatic and incurable malignancy that may have been resectable or preventable if diagnosed early (colon cancer, prostate cancer, cervical cancer, etc.) that would be a huge miss within the diagnostic wheelhouse and skillset of primary care. There are a million other things within primary care like this that Apollyon was touching on.

TL;DR: stay in your lane.
 
Hi all,

I am considering picking up a moonlighting gig for a primary care clinic. The clinic is run by an IM doc and sees typical primary care stuff (annual physicals, diabetes and HTN management, referrals to specialists, maybe some urgent care stuff, etc) I have no primary care experience and haven't ever worked in an outpatient clinic (ABEM boarded and have only worked in EDs)

Has any EM-trained physicians here tried this? Is it too much of a malpractice risk practicing primary care if I am only boarded in EM? I am pretty sure I can learn on the job and can research anything I don't know. Anyone with experience please share! Thanks

The only way I would consider it is if they were starting a “urgent care” portion of their office, and I only did acute sick visits etc.

we aren’t trained or boarded for long term care
 
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Interesting how real physicians with residency training and several years work experience deem themselves not up to par to work in a clinic, but a person that took a couple online classes and shadowed for two months is?
 
Interesting how real physicians with residency training and several years work experience deem themselves not up to par to work in a clinic, but a person that took a couple online classes and shadowed for two months is?

If you are smart you know your limitations and abilities

Those that are clueless due to little training don’t realize what they don’t know...
 
If you are smart you know your limitations and abilities

Those that are clueless due to little training don’t realize what they don’t know...

State legislatures, the VA leadership, and several presidential candidates seem to think that they're up to the task. "Improving access to care" and all that...since primary care is so easy and all.
 
State legislatures, the VA leadership, and several presidential candidates seem to think that they're up to the task. "Improving access to care" and all that...since primary care is so easy and all.
Which is why @NYEMMED said smart people don’t think that and only someone with little training and a lot ignorance doesn’t know their limits
 
I am EM trained and have done primary care or subacute care. Do it. You can learn alot by doing some reading on BP,CAD etc.

This is one time I feel SDN misleads.
 
I briefly worked in a health clinic on a college campus that did academic and pre-employment physicals for the students. We also functioned as a minor illness clinic. We also did some health screenings like BP, cholesterol, skin, etc.
I am pretty sure I can learn on the job and can research anything I don't know.

I am EM trained and have done primary care or subacute care. Do it. You can learn alot by doing some reading on BP,CAD etc.

This is one time I feel SDN misleads.

I am boarded in EM and used to believe the quotes above. I have family and friends in primary care and they told me the same thing. My wife even told me, "They have NPs doing this and YOU feel nervous?" She added, "Just refer whenever you're not sure. It's not like the ER where people die if you get it wrong." However, after having worked at a college campus student health clinic, I have to disagree. I wasn't even working in a bonafide primary care clinic and I felt I was outside my comfort zone. Sure, no one will go home and die within 48 hrs. And after letting a condition or symptom go for longer than it should before referring or taking other measures, for most cases, I would probably eventually "get it right." But the truth is it just didn't feel ideal or fair to the patient.

In the ED, I don't consult for every condition nor do I admit every vague presentation. In that setting, I am quite confident clinically. But in the outpatient setting, I felt woefully unprepared and making up for it by just reading uptodate, doing a literature search or glancing over a review article seemed pathetic and dangerous. I saw young, healthy college kids for the most part and talking to them about pap smear recommendations, birth control options, cholesterol and HgbA1C numbers, weird moles, migraine HAs, unexplained wt gain/loss, etc. couldn't be any further outside the medical world I was trained for. Sure, you can look things up and continue to "practice" until you gain experience but it felt wrong, even if nobody died immediately or suffered significantly as a result of my care.

There is something to be said for having seen experienced physicians before me do things a certain way, give you specific reminders, point out certain red flags, tell you about their experiences. You need to see normal outcomes, expected complications and treatment side effects, see common mistakes and their consequences. You need to do journal club and see if what is written actually applies in real practice settings. A lot of emergency medicine writing talks about orthostatic BP for GI bleeds, auscultating bruits in AAAs, vagal maneuvers for SVT, neck stiffness for meningitis, ultrasounding every body part, etc. In reality, most ER doctors don't practice that way. You need to have the perspectives of many different attendings with different philosophies, tolerances for risk, practice styles. You need to do things over and over again. You need to see the routine stuff thousands of times so you recognize when something is wrong. You get this in residency, NOT when "practicing" in isolation while reading review articles.

The final straw for me was when I thought about the notes I was writing in the pt charts. Could I be proud of my care for these pts? If I stayed at this clinic for 10 years, could I look back on my body of work and feel good? Would the next physician look back and say, "Man, this guy was good!" My own answer to that question was that I wasn't sure because I didn't really know how other PCPs practice. Other than what I've read, I couldn't be sure what was actually standard of care. Because of that, I resigned.

Primary care is not easy. It sounds easy but believe me, it is not. I am not saying don't try it. I do believe that my experience in the outpt setting has made me a more well rounded physician. However, you need to remember that you are not a PCP. You really need to watch yourself closely to be sure you don't cross any major scope of practice lines. As much as I enjoyed my break from the chaos and dysfunction of the ER, I quit the clinic because watching that line day in and day out was not what I wanted to do.
 
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I feel, personally, that you just like to argue, and disagree with any majority position.
Lol

I’ll ask your permission before I post. Your royal highness.

The irony is that you are trying to pick a fight with me.

He asked a question and I gave my informed opinion based on experience. What did you contribute other than trying to censure with rudeness.
 
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Lol

I’ll ask your permission before I post. Your royal highness.

The irony is that you are trying to pick a fight with me.

He asked a question and I gave my informed opinion based on experience. What did you contribute other than trying to censure with rudeness.
Nice PM. Overreact much?

It's not just this thread.
 
Well, I never said I am an angel. I was never “most popular”, most tactful or any of that jazz but I just try to share my knowledge. I don’t try to pick fights as you accused. Just giving a balanced view even if it ends up being against the grain.

If you’re offended, you can always block.
 
Stop posting?

Don’t start pointless arguments then claim someone else is argumentative.
 
Stop what your are doing - drawing this out ad nauseam. You are going to get this thread closed.
Point the finger at yourself.
What did you expect to happen after making an off hand random statement to someone who’s never addressed you personally?
 
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Hi all,

I am considering picking up a moonlighting gig for a primary care clinic. The clinic is run by an IM doc and sees typical primary care stuff (annual physicals, diabetes and HTN management, referrals to specialists, maybe some urgent care stuff, etc) I have no primary care experience and haven't ever worked in an outpatient clinic (ABEM boarded and have only worked in EDs)

Has any EM-trained physicians here tried this? Is it too much of a malpractice risk practicing primary care if I am only boarded in EM? I am pretty sure I can learn on the job and can research anything I don't know. Anyone with experience please share! Thanks
In the multi-specialty group I work with, there's an EM guy who went from full time EM (trauma center), to urgent care, to primary care over a few years and does only primary care now. He says there was somewhat of a learning curve, but he seems to have adjusted fine and stays pretty busy. He's being charged the same malpractice rates as our other PCPs. From what he's told me is that it took a lot of self study, but he's a very smart guy, so he seems to have done well with it, and as someone in a leadership role in my group, I know for a fact there have been no competency issues at all with him in his new role. In fact, he's one of our highest performing PCPs despite not being boarded in it.
 
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Anyone remember way back on SDN where they had that emoji who walks through the doorway, notes an uncomfortable situation, and walks back out? Anyone still have it somewhere?
:whoa:

click reply, click the smiley face (popup will say smilies), scroll down

I also love the banana being beaten :diebanana:
 
Anyone remember way back on SDN where they had that emoji who walks through the doorway, notes an uncomfortable situation, and walks back out? Anyone still have it somewhere?
I love the "Awkward. BYE" emoji. I'm going to make it just a little more awkward. Ready?

After talking to wise friends on SDN-EM, @zurned tells his PCP friend, "Sorry, man. I really want to help out, but I want to do the right thing, so I've decided not to help out in your Primary Care clinic. I just don't feel comfortable, or that I have enough training."

PCP friend, "Okay, no worries. I have an NP in mind that I'm sure can do it. Thanks though!'


:whoa:
 
In the multi-specialty group I work with, there's an EM guy who went from full time EM (trauma center), to urgent care, to primary care over a few years and does only primary care now. He says there was somewhat of a learning curve, but he seems to have adjusted fine and stays pretty busy. He's being charged the same malpractice rates as our other PCPs. From what he's told me is that it took a lot of self study, but he's a very smart guy, so he seems to have done well with it, and as someone in a leadership role in my group, I know for a fact there have been no competency issues at all with him in his new role. In fact, he's one of our highest performing PCPs despite not being boarded in it.
The difference here is your guy a) transitioned to that slowly over time in what seems a logical progression (EM -> UC -> PC) and b) is doing it full time.

That's not what the OP is planning to do.
 
The difference here is your guy a) transitioned to that slowly over time in what seems a logical progression (EM -> UC -> PC) and b) is doing it full time.

That's not what the OP is planning to do.
Yeah, I know. I have no dog in this fight.
 
In the multi-specialty group I work with, there's an EM guy who went from full time EM (trauma center), to urgent care, to primary care over a few years and does only primary care now. He says there was somewhat of a learning curve, but he seems to have adjusted fine and stays pretty busy. He's being charged the same malpractice rates as our other PCPs. From what he's told me is that it took a lot of self study, but he's a very smart guy, so he seems to have done well with it, and as someone in a leadership role in my group, I know for a fact there have been no competency issues at all with him in his new role. In fact, he's one of our highest performing PCPs despite not being boarded in it.

Did he have a difficult time finding a job with employers knowing he’s only EM certified? That sounds pretty good TBH
 
Did he have a difficult time finding a job with employers knowing he’s only EM certified? That sounds pretty good TBH
He did not have difficulty because he was a known quantity within the community and knew all the players due to his longstanding EM presence in the community.
 
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